White flight

If a couple doesn't agree on where to live (be it burb v. city, state v. state, country v. country), it can really stress the relationship.

I'm with you, uwsmom.

Rhino: Good luck, but as I'm sure you already know, there are people who are very happy in a well-located 1200sqft 2b2b rental with 2 school-aged kids (easier with one gender) and you never know, school worries may be for nought (G&T/Hunter/selective middle). Who gets to decide if each person is equally convinced of the merits of their preference?

Uwsmom: you notice that there is now a philly version of brownstoner.com. To die for, some of the arch. stuff and I don't care if rowhouses were the spec houses of the 19th C.

What happened to Rhino calling stevejx a "gay translating accountant"?

Rhino: btw, you and Lucille are a match made in heaven.

Well it sure sounds like Rhino is having second thoughts about his current wife.

you've also accused me of being related to w67thstreet

don't really know why the need to make these odd connections, but ok

Apologies for turning this into an UB/youbemom-esque thread.

There are 2 ends of the spectrum in terms of modern-day housewifery (okay, Matt, I know about the cook-from-scratch-on-hotplate-while-teaching-4+kids-to-read) in Manhattan.

There is the on-the-go-all-day-with-snacks-prepped-fav-toy-laden mom and maybe this is easier in a climate-controlled SUV. If you're not home, and you're doing day trips in a car, then not sure what is appealing about city leaving.
There is the minimalist mom-with-no-snacks-or-toys who is almost always within a 10min walk/subway/taxi ride from home who has meals at home, and makes many daily trips from and to home.

Not ashamed to admit that I adore the idea of preschool and gym babysitting. It is my version of the village.

City living.

I get to decide because I bear ultimate financial responsibility.

I concur. The person making/having the $ in the relationship gets the final say.

10023, where would that put you in your marriage?

I do not get the final say.

mr. bluth and i agree most of the time, but when we don't, we each make the best argument for our case and one of us concedes, no one really wins by default. but then, i married my equal.

Look at this way. If I could live with the paper thin margin of safety that ever asshole American does, then one might say I can afford to live down here. Mentally, I cannot live that way. That trumps preference...and so should space and free school. Moving out ultimately has more intrinsic merit...unless both agree. I think ties ultimately have to go to the burbs.

rhino, i agree with you. i am adressing 10023 who seems to be in the mood to start shit.

Similarly, I think my wife realizes the burbs make more sense...So at this point its mainly timing. I'm am just not long term comfortable with the cost of supporting two children in the city... So honestly, chauvinism aside, what is the real counterargument? Its not as though she has the earnings power to move the needle. That's not a slight thats just practical fact. My wife just didn't position herself to make $250k+.

Sorry I didnt even perceive that she was starting with you...maybe she wasnt.

What makes this even more interesting and ethically nuances is that its only because of the money I made and saved before I was married that we are even able to entertain this debate/discussion.

I always let my better half make all the important decisions. I just decide which decisions are important.

Haha.

you have your answer, and so does she. for your family, moving to the suburbs is the right thing to do. she's already conceded. maybe just stay until #2 arrives, she gets that new york hospital on the birth cetificate, because you know she cares about that, and let her choose the pace. if your ultimate move has laready been decided, just enjoy the city until you guys go.

It's not chauvinism. No gender bias. Breadwinner could be male or female in hetero-or-not relationship.

I can imagine the situation (not yours or yours so don't take it personally) where each partner makes an equally compelling argument for their preference. Conceding would mean that one would be put in a situation not of their liking (of course you can make lemons out of lemonade). Who gets to make the tiebreaker vote? In my view, the breadwinner gets to make the tiebreaker vote because he/she has to support the family wherever they're going. Of course, it gets more complicated if there is income derived from investments, etc., future earning power of other spouse... You could also split it by saying that the other partner gets to make the tiebreaker vote in other important areas (religious upbringing is another hot potato).

I'm not sure that I'm not equal because I concede that the person bringing in the bacon gets to cast the tiebreaker vote in this scenario. If it truly earth-shatteringly awful for the other to move to XYZ (say different country scenario, no language ability), then you could work out something like - yes, breadwinner makes tiebreaker vote, but re-evaluate in a year and mean that.

I dont know that I can be comfortable having the second until I understand the timing. We are getting there. I think we are narrowed down to 2 or 3 years. The next issue to confront is why I need to start number on in an expensive nursery school in fall 11 if we are going to be gone in fall 12. Maybe thats just what I concede to keep the peace.

How about the person responsible for the ultimate care of the majority of the members of the household? Since the husband is away to play, the kids are running to someone, right?

I feel in this case, the tiebreak really needs to follow the money because it is a financial decision in most respects. We have friends where the woman wants to work and makes good money. Then I see the "dont have two commutes" argument.

"Away to play"?

You watch too much MadMen.

Rhino: I liked "Tipping Point" and yes, I've heard all the stats on late birthdays ad nauseum. But sometimes stats shouldn't be used too much in deciding apriori what to do. In general, I would hold back a late bday boy (but you know that NYC public schools are much less strict on this than they appear to be - truly, I can point to many RL examples today), but you could have a boy who is an exception.

Apparently it isn't a marriage of equals. Rhino is always superior.

The age thing is just another reason to leave. The problem with being young is it may have no disadvantage but it clearly doesn't have an advantage, ergo....

Except one extra year of being at home. Again, depends on your kid.

Rhino's contribution to society, for which he earns money so he has control over his wife, is that he works for a hedge fund. Money is moved around, 2% fees are earned without performance (imagine by default giving 2% in this interest rate environment), nothing is created, no company is benefited, no person is benefited, except perhaps the money money, but no guarantees except for Rhinos 2% and he is superior to the people in Scarsdale.

I'm willing to do the extra year of nursery in the meanwhile to get her on the oldest track. Leaving the nest therefore at the same time. This is even though I don't buy the argument.

maybe you have to give her the nursery school. you can always hope rhino jr. doesn't get in!

Rhino, what do you think, should taxes be raised at the top end? Should hedge funds get their current special tax breaks?

Yes, because it probably a good thing (maybe not $12k good, but whatevs)for my daughter. Then we're out and she can start on two "cheap" years of CT nursery in 2012.

lucillebluth, one should hope that Rhino doesn't beat his kids.

The cycle of violence needs to be stopped. Unfortuntately, based on his attitudes of a women's inferiority in the family relationship, who can be sure?

What is the typical age at which child abuse begins?

Nursery school is expensive in Manhattan. Definitely would not put myself in financial jeopardy to put kids in nursery. My 3 cents:

1) My (teacher) gma babysat me 0-? Learned a lot from her (numbers, letters, math, general knowledge) - so nursery was unnecessary from a "scholastic" perspective. However, it's hard for someone to be so organized (not impossible) as to provide a child with all that + good social experiences with peers. Nursery was invaluable for me because I didn't have playdates with neighbor kids. I wasn't thrown into K sink-or-swim w/o having interacted with kids my age. Was it absolutely necessary? No, but it definitely helped and didn't put my parents in the poorhouse.

2) You can lambaste me all you like but I, as a SAH parent, 100% fail at the task of providing adequate social and academic experiences for my kids (even before SE addiction). Kiddie classes, playdates not enough. I am happy to provide preschool for my kids before they get to K.

I wont lambaste you. You prob sell yourself short tho.

10023, i think the issue is your personalilty. not the "problem" mind you, but what makes your particular needs different from other's. some people are just social by nature, they need other people, enjoy other people and seek them out. some people are just always around other people, and those people also have children. kids gain a lot from "finding" themseves and learning outside of a structured environment. and mothers gain a lot from having real friendships.

News flash--it's not just white people moving out of NYC. This 2nd generation New York native is seriously considering moving also--and I'm not white.

"I'd move to Philly in a second."

then why are you talking burbs?? isn't a more urban environment a better compromise?

10023- i had no idea of such a website. if i got too into it, it could be plan A.

I never said that it was an option on the table from my wife, or that I had a job there. When it comes to moving to the burbs, my wife loves city life. When it comes to moving away from her parents, she loves her parents.

But you make the money, since she has a vagina. So you are in charge.

UWS, it 1/2 finances 1/2 preferences. So its one preference vote vs (one preference vote and finance votes).

http://philly.brownstoner.com/

No job for me there. If my wife were actually interested in moving out of a one hour orbit of her rents Boston would be a more likely location.

Rhino - have you actually told your wife, your LIFE PARTNER , all the facts, including that your income is down from 2007 (when you engaged,married?). She is your PARTENER , not your child. Give her all the facts so that you BOTH can make the decision as to where you will live.

Rhino's wife is not his partner. He views her as a vagina with a mouth.

Sorry "partner" . Also , your discussion led to a "fait acoompli" not a "fete de compli, whatever that is

columbiacounty?

Rhino - in our house it's "what will make me (the non-breadwinner housewife) happy" vs. "what will make me (the non-breadwinner housewife) happy". but seriously, my husband doesn't play these "i'm the breadwinner" games with me. thank god. i just want him to enjoy what he's doing (and for it to not kill him). he just wants me to be happy. simple equation.

Sorry "fait accompli"

nice uwsmom!

uwsmom - you seem to have it right!!

It's just that Rhino doesn't seem to believe his wife is in it with him. As in, if she knows he's not making what he did when they married (and he's not telling her), what will happen? Will she leave him? Will she think less of him? Or, hopefully, will she totally understand what's happened with the economy, and support him in whatever way she can? Maybe, she will scale down her expectations, once she knows all the facts (which he hasn't yet told her).

While I still consider myself on hiatus from SE, this thread is intriguing me...the city v burb argument always does. What strikes me is that as usual, the problem: $2.2MM apartment vs $2.2MM suburban home is problem most people would be delighted to have. The fact that we are defining the "middle" as $400K income families, "strugglers" as families that need two incomes to get to $250K and that an annual income of close to $1MM is needed to be considered "rich" shows what a silver of society is being addressed.

In fact Median household income in New York County in 2008 was $68K and had probably gone down since then...

And I hope I'm not understanding...is there a school of thought that says if you don't send your kid to a five figure preschool (what if anything is the difference between "nursery" and "preschool"), preschool isn't necessary? Hasn't it been proven as a great stimulator and accelerator of all kids, even those that don't need a "Head Start".

Mad Men time...back to hiatus.

lizyank - nice to see you back - your commentary is missed.

Yes, yes, uwsmom - nice to be in a compatible situation. But let's imagine a house where one wants to live in burbs to be happy and the other wants to live in city to be happy. Who gets to decide?

These are HIGH class problems, Liz. No doubt about it.

Burb argument viz-a-viz Rhino - more space, more school certainty for money spent, nothing significant lost by moving to burbs lifestyle-wise, possibility of buying "forever house"
City argument from Rhino's spouse - less space, okay school for a while, proximity to parents, huge lifestyle gain, forever a renter

Liz: there is certainly a school of thought that no preschool is necessary if one can organize informal activities that are sufficiently enriching. I don't disagree with that but I think that few are capable of this. I am not one of them.

Ah, ncy10023 - somehow I think you are totally capable.

lucillebluthtooth, you sure you not aka daniel staub?

um, i'm a woman.

what does HIGH class mean? are you saying rhino is high?

why bluthtooth?

These are problems of a small, affluent class of people in Manhattan, NYC, the world. No drugs involved.

to which you belong

I am grateful every day that my problems are petty. May they remain so.

amen

rangersfan, come back! i demand to know why you called me bluthtooth and the suggested i might be a man named daniel staub

my bsd. danielle staub. from nj housewives fame, just asking.

oh. no, i am not this person.

oh, coulda fooled me but no matter.

what? i don't watch that show. do know this woman personally? what are some qualities we have in common?

weak

10023 - i think that in a marriage/partnership, if one person subscribes to "my preference trumps b/c of X reason", that partnership has bigger problems than a dispute over zipcodes.

uwsmom, doesn't that describe of the common prototypes of conversation people have all the time? people talk about their preferences, explain why they believe they are right, and either win the "argument" or concede "defeat"? everything from which movie to see, to where to eat, to whether or not to leave manhattan?

lets just say you seem to have strikingly similar traits.

nobody "wins" when they exchange ideas or opinions, unless they are in a "conversation" with you.

like what?

good lord, you sound so smart when you're yapping about finance! so many of you are just such dissapointments in other areas of reasoning and even basic conversation.

we are not talking about "conversations" dumbo, but an "agrument", which is not and exchange of ideas, but something else entirely. and "yes", "somebody" "wins" "an" "argument"

still not clear on the danielle staub reference/similarities

i see where you got the "conversation", but that was misused. somebody has to win an "argument" otherwise people would debate the merits of every movie, restaurant, hood, etc. and never actually do anything. understand?

okay, so before you spout off like vesuvius danielle, er lucille, remember your post on "winning" a conversation from 5 minutes ago.

way ahead of you, sadly.

you are so lame

ha, doubt it. your analogy is somewhat at odds with the equality you so proudly espouse when it comes to mr. bluthtooth. too bad the poor soul has to be bludgeoned by your point of view when deciding on what sat night flick to watch.

dumbo, lame, UNDERSTAND.....you really ARE from jersey.

i'll tell you a secret, since i'm not coming back here. i always used to read rhino's posts and tried to help him out on this one because he reminds me of mr. bluth. so, to clarify for you, my numerically gifted but hopelessly laaaame anonymous internet friend, mr. bluth is not a poor soul, he can be kind of a dick actually, but that's why i love him. i said it a few posts back, i married my equal.

again, since i'm not coming back here. i was born in ny, the family is based on the ues, spent childhood in europe because that's where papa bear's career took us.

well, then. if he is a dick and you married your equal - what does that make you?

um.....a bigger dick than you? hahahah

but why is it bad to be from new jersey? why do you use it as an insult? i'm not familiar with basking ridge, but did you never meet anyone who could have pity and invite you out to some of the gorgeous blue blood hoods? i mean, you DO have 2 million dollars. no one? not even once?

hey, basking ridge looks nice. it's near far hills and bearnardsville. wtf is your problem then? seroiously.

i take that back. it's pricy, but the houses look really new flashy and mcmansiony. hey, just like you!

lucille, words of a desparate women. i said it wasnt for me or really my wife and then you went off jersey style and started with the insults and have continued right through. i also was responding to rhino since he appears to be in a similar situation than i so i was looking to get his rationale.

i have a little pity for you since you seem a bit tightly wound but really not so much. are you wishing you had blond hair and blue eyes?

you called me daniel staub and bluetooth and last night you we going on about sommething too, i'll have to scroll back.
i do not wish to have blonde hair and blue eyes. i used to have that really exspensive fake blonde that everyone gets when i was younger, but men treat blondes differently and that's the truth. not in a good way. ready? i have medium brown hair, big green eyes and right now i'm really tan. ooooohhh.

bluthtooth, you really cannot help yourself can you. there are pills for your condition and therapy but i'm guessing mr tooth wouldn't be up to it since it might break the bank for your dream home in parsipanny.

but my fake internet husband rhino is ignoring you, so why are you even talking to him?

you are better than that. just try harder!

rhino aint talkin to me cause i told him to crank out one of his bullshit spreadsheets a couple of months back. and are you tanning like the jersey shore girls too - see you fit like a glove.

i was at the shore most of the summer! but i was in stone harbor. no snookies, sadly. i like the jersey shore kids, they seem like a fun bunch.

come on, girlfriend, this is lucille's last ever thread! say something else.