345 West 58th Street, 6A

Seems to be priced in line with recent comps -- the apartments above and below both sold in the past year, so you have some good data points. The place definitely looks like it will need renovations, but so did 5A, judging from the pics. Not a bad floorplan if you don't mind postwar cookie cutter; the separate foyer is nice and will make the place feel a little more ample than if you stepped right into the living room. Convenient if not terribly tranquil location. Monthlies are decent. No idea if PS 111 is a good school or not, or if that's a consideration for you.

rlmnyc, it certainly sounds like it's worth a look. The area is far enough away from 5th Avenue shopping to feel residential and close to UWS. 3 closets in master bedroom a definite plus. L/R and D/R space is quite large. Also, windows on two exposures is very good. I also like having both a tub and a stall shower.

Does w/d "allowed" in apartment mean allowed with board approval or is there already approval?

Keep us updated! Good luck!

For a monthly after-tax nut of $4-5K, my thought is that $4-5K buys you a kinda depressing apartment. I know of some much exciting places to rent for that kind of money: views, outdoor space, fancy kitchens, decent-height ceilings, etc. Never mind the $200K of cash to tie up, nor the time and effort to spend $100K to update the space, nor the $100K transaction costs.

So a couple of positives and a negative so far. Thank you for the feedback, Miette lobster, and inonada.

Miette, schools aren't a consideration.

I'm thinking it's worth a look for its lovely garden, proximity to the park and to the great restaurants on Ninth, and its space.

It's true that I'm not sure whether I have the stomach for renovations. I've never seen the building, though, so it might be instructive to see it in case a renovated apartment turns up.

And lobster, I have no idea about the washer/dryer status. If it's a potential fit, I'll ask. Thanks.

inonada, I understand your thought about renting, but we've been renting for over a decade, and it feels like time to buy if we find the right place.

Yeah, I've me too. I've been renting primarily for the last 6 years sidestepping the bubble and boy now I wanna know what it feels like to lose 30% of my equity instead of 50%, I missed out on the first 20%.

Do you need to touch white hot iron to know it's hot?

Oh the units I bought in 1995..... That was a home run. 10% mortgages, cash flow positive from day one, no Reno needed. Crazy azzed long credit cycle..... Flmaozz

So w67, when to buy?

w67th - so you've been seeing lots of of your dream classic 6's/7's on the UWS below 90th street for under $2,000,000?

Oh wait- I forgot - you're predicting classic 6/7's on Central Park West for about that price, right?

Sure, rlmnyc, I get it. I'm just saying that is kinda a depressing apartment to be spending an effective $60K a year on. Particularly when you compare it to the other options. It's finely-priced relative to market, but not exactly the type of place I'd look forward coming home to over the next decade knowing the alternatives. It's not really my market, but just before seeing your post I happened to run across a rental listing that could probably be had for $4500 that looked very attractive for that price point. The comparison to this place was quite stark, hence the impression "depressing".

Uh, ph41, you could get below-90th classic 6's on the UWS for $2M even at the tip-top of the bubble...

inonada - I'm not talking about a 1,400 sq. ft. "classic " - has to be closer to 2,000+ sq. ft.
Have you checked out the classic 7's on West End (and we're talking even 90th and above). Yes, smaller ones in need of "TLC" (LOL) are going for less, but 10X12 bedrooms don't yell "classic" to me.

Just do a search for 3 bedrooms (that captures the classic 6 with maid's room as 3rd bedroom) on UWS, and put in the description field "classic". See what comes up.

We must have different things in mind, ph41. I thought a classic 6 ran 1400 - 1800 sq ft typically, not 2000+ sq ft. Not really my area of expertise, so I'm happy to learn something if consensus on a classic 6 is 2000+ sq ft. I'm pretty sure I know of a few of 6-room places 1600-1700 sq ft that went for $2M circa 2007. Nothing fancy, no special view, just your basic classic 6 in fine condition (i.e., the person dropping $2M didn't care to renovate anything).

inonada - guess we do- after all, a 2br/2bth at Lincoln Towers can be 1,200-1,400 sf. (and that ain't "classic"). Most "classic" i.e. "grand" classic 6's/7's are probably in the 1,800+ sf range. Look for large living rooms(at least 14X25), large dining rooms, real master bedroom, plus decent sized 2nd bedroom (no, not 12x13), plus maid's and bath.

Again, do that search and look at the floorplans. You'll get it.

Oh, and a nice foyer.(though the closets in those pre-wars can be sadly lacking). And the very early ones (1900-1920) have too few bathrooms and really really long corridors.

This isn't a bad layout.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/377910-coop-333-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

And THIS is grand
http://www.corcoran.com/images/media/ListingFloorplans/2022795.1.gif

I'm with you on the classic 7's, just not on the classic 6's. In my brief attempts to find 2000 sq ft classic 6's as you suggested (3BR with "classic"), I just found classic 7's for the places above 2000 sq ft. I'm all for the notion that no apartment should have ever been built without all the specs you list, but most classic 6's I'm aware of (which aren't that many) run closer to 1600 sq ft.

FYI, I don't consider any postwar as a classic anything.

Ain't no arguing with that "GRAND" floorplan. How anyone lives with anything less is beyond me ;).

inonada - actually there are some postwar buildings that have the gracious layouts of some of the better pre-wars (though possibly not super-high ceilings). Seem to be concentrated in the East 50's/Sutton/Beekman area, and most are 1960's buildings. One example

http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/94/14437894.gif

there are others (judging from an SE poster "Rosina")

E.g., 50 E 79th: http://nyre.cul.columbia.edu/projects/view/17599#images

Rimnyc. Hmmmmmmm. When mortgages are 10%, you are cash flow positive (on imputed rent) from day one and the only units selling are pristine units on new developments.

Ph41, you know..... I've been thinking alot about my life and things to get done bf I kick the bucket after the lahaina/Oahu race. I think this '6/7' desire is like wanting a Ferrari bf hitting 30 itch. It's a let down once accomplished. -shrug- in due time that c6/7 will get accomplished like all things that I've set my eyes on. I'm in no rush, the market has spoken, it's just a slow slog but my rental suits me fine, kids got their $400k education fund, $1.2mm in cash, bidding on a 48 foot yacht, happy marriage, great kids, golf swing is starting to really click, still squatting 585lbs. Not bad before 40 ..... Life goes on. Maybe the nyc re bubble was a blessing in disguise. I'm sorta living my financial life backwards, but beats living it in chapter 7. Cheers.

W67th - one thing I just don't understand with you (well, I sort of do) is why you spend lots of money on expensive, FLASHY, stranger-impressing, immediately depreciating toys (expensive cars, boat, watches) but feel it's stupid to spend your money on a NYC apartment that you and your family would really LOVE to live in,long term, where the possibility of depreciation (or, to be more correct, market value declines by possibly 10-15%)is far less. No, it wouldn't be a "let down once accomplished" - what an easy out you've just given yourself (then again, you'd have to dip heavily into your cash reserve). To quote you. LMFAO!!!

If I may answer on his behalf, I do believe w67th spends plenty of money on an NYC apartment that he and his family love to live in: he pays a bunch of rent every year. No illusions on the money being spent. He, like many of us, happens to have better use for his cash than to park iarisen illiquid risky asset yielding 1-2% with an expected yield growth rate of 2-3%.

gracias, i know something.

PH41, you strike me as someone who doesn't have children. My greatest joy comes from ensuring that my children become good citizens of the world, have great opportunities and my wife and I take them to see the world every chance we get. You think my children cry at nite bc they want to be "owners" instead of "renters?" Seriously, who is the "owner?" Me or the guy that can't make his mortgage payment w/o my rent?

"flashy" trashy or whatever. The cars, boats, etc.... are depreciating yes, i let the lemmings take the depreciation. Herez a little secret, if you buy your toys "well" and are "smart" (thatz me), then your toys should cost you not much more than the financing cost to carry it.

What's funny to me is you completely missed the point of my post. My LIFE goes on. The greatest joy for me (as a poor immigrant boy w/o food on the dinner table) is to NOT to have to worry about my finances bc I AM NOT burdened by a $2MM mortgage on a depreciating asset. You think 15% depreciation is a possibility... that's on top of the 20% already baked in. Now in the classic 6/7 with large bones, like a $3MM peaky peak unit, that 20% and 15%, equates to a $960K swing in equity. BTW, that swing would buy me the boat of my dreams and 2 Ferraris I have my eye on. I DID NO EXTRA WORK for it. I just saw a bubble and said "no thank you."

So herez an example of a nice C6/7.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/478267-coop-320-central-park-west-upper-west-side-new-york

I know, I know.. its' really not big enough to be a "classic." Must agree with you, that's why I'd buy studio on the first floor for the nanny/housekeeper...
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/546874-coop-320-central-park-west-upper-west-side-new-york

all in, under $2MM.... Now tell me how waiting out the bubble popping didn't make me more financially secure?

Oh and fwiw, the studio's came to mkt at $549K on 1-2010, the 3bdrm came out swinging at $1.65MM on 11-2009, me thinkz there's about 10-20% give on both units, for a "cash" buyer who can close bf year end.

so you are looking at $1.6 to $1.8MM all in for a "dignified" way to be an "owner" of a classic 6/7, where the nanny/housekeeper can "retire" to after cleaning up.

w67 - not a great layout - they seem to have turned the dining room into a bedroom, tiny little "dining area" outside a small galley kitchen. Actually, somehow it looks like two apartments put together. And frankly, judging by how fast "classic 6's" have been going into contract at that price point, (like within 45 days of being listed), there is something definitely wrong with this one. Maybe you just set your sights higher with boats and cars than with apartments.

HEY LADY! That'z why YOU NEED TO BUY THE STUDIO on the FIRST FLOOR. I'd mirror it and put a disco ball in it, if you know what I mean.

THERE IS NO SEX IN THE Champagne ROOM!

oh...you can't take the penthouse lady seriously.

she's merely an obnoxious, know it all, know nothing, do nothing nobody.

So here's the outcome: I saw the apartment today, and--as our candid and helpful broker and SE regular, Keith, remarked--it needs significantly more work than the seller's broker conveyed: kitchen, two bathrooms, floors, closets, painting. It could command the asking price if it were in move-in condition, but it's in ancient grandmother condition. And it smells like ancient grandmother; the owner apparently has alit most likely to a nursing home. Yes, it's cookie-cutter, but it's got a slightly different layout than the Lincoln Towers standard, and a lovely internal garden. If your apartment faces the garden, the view is lovely and the noise is minimal. To the east is Tourist Central, but to the west is fun Hell's Kitchen. I'm going to keep the building on my radar screen.

How many dollars and how much time is it away from "move-in" condition in your estimation?

inonada, I'm no expert. The seller's broker suggested 50K, while Keith suggested 100K. I have zero clue about time, but I could feel my stomach tighten when I considered the time and effort involved. Not for the faint of heart. If you're a renovator, though, it could be right for you.

Got it. It smelled like $100K from where I was sitting, and I'm guessing Keith's estimate is more reliable. I just thought it might have been worse from what you were saying. I'd give it 6 months to figure out renovation & get approval, another 6 months to get it done. Of course, you'd plan on 6 months and watch it balloon to 12 & get frustrated by the process.

Sounds about right. I'd probably need prescription meds to get through the process.

rlmnyc, if the apartment needs that level of renovation (redoing kitchen and two baths, new floors, redesigning closet interiors and painting), then $100,000 is the more accurate figure. Maybe you can find a similiar unit in better condition.

The advantage of renovating the apartment is, of course, that you'll end up living in an apartment you designed and not feeling like you're living in someone else's home (or another rental unit designed by someone else). The negatives are the expense and the aggravation. Personally, the longer I look for an apartment, the more I lean towards buying something at a lower price and putting in the time and money for the renovation. But doing an entire apartment is a very big project and you'll need to live somewhere else while the renovation is being done. But after living in rental apartments for more than 15 years, I think it'll be wonderful to design my own apartment.

Let us know if you find something else of interest. And the building's garden does look very peaceful.

Thank you for your thoughtful feedback, lobster. In a perfect world, I'd be a woman of leisure and renovating an apartment would be a labor of love. In reality, I'm an employed nail-biter who would gladly move into a generic renovation than oversee chaos.

If a garden-facing two-bedroom in this building becomes available, I'd be the first one at the open house.

How's your search going?

rlmnyc, It's already been a long process to find an apartment and with the lack of new inventory of interest, it will not end soon.

Meantime, I daydream about leaving NYC and moving to a small beach community. :)

A small beach community sounds good.

lobster,
If you do move to the beach...watch out for the traps and the melted butter.

Renovated or unrenovated - take your pick - nice floorplan

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/543987-coop-35-sutton-place-sutton-place-new-york
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/518729-coop-35-sutton-place-sutton-place-new-york

I like that '50s/'60s kitchen with the metal cabinets and original stainless-steel oven and cooktop. Thermador, I think.