Open House Reports, Upper West Side, October 2010

Visited 392 CPW, 3C and 3D, more out of curiosity than any serious interest. Can be sold separately for 1M or together to be combined. Two sad-looking apartments. All of the bathrooms were original and looked like they were about to collapse. The kitchens needed serious work. One apartment looks out over a driveway, the other gazes at the projects, and both look directly into the new retail construction on CPW btw 99th and 100th. Until now, the lights have been on all night in these buildings, which is sub-optimal both for the environment and anyone attempting to sleep in any of the apartments abutting these buildings. This is probably among the least favorable corners to occupy in PWV, where much of the appeal is the interior garden area. In conclusion, loud, bright, and ugly.

Whoops, construction is Columbus and 99/100, not CPW.

650 West End Avenue #7A
Condo, 2BR/2BA + maid's
Asks $2,287,000 CC $1,447 RET $788
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/553478-condo-650-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

The "A" line at 650 WEA is a spacious six that feels smaller at first, because the entry faces a door to the pantry. In #7A, this cramped first impression has been reinforced by the conversion of the pantry into a storage room, with the passage to the kitchen blocked by a sauna. Although a sauna may conjure images of spa living, #7A is a musty wreck. Aside from a few details - a small, Tiffany-style window in the dining room, a wall of original cabinets in the kitchen, and maybe some wainscoting - I didn't see much here that warranted preservation. Kitchen, baths and electrics need a full overhaul. Walls and floors need significant work. In some places, the extent of damage is not readily determined - like the second bedroom, where the walls are carpeted.

The "A" footprint converts readily to a 3BR with an eat-in kitchen and excellent storage. Dividing the dining room is a simple matter, though it might involve relocating the stained-glass panel. The master bedroom has an en-suite bath and generous dressing area. Although the apartment faces north, all rooms get decent light and the rear rooms (which include the master) are surprisingly bright.

#7A may interest buyers who absolutely must have a pre-war condo, and who want to redesign it from the ground up. At this point, the asking price is a deterrent. For comparison, #9A sold at the peak of the market, fully renovated with central air, for $2.395MM. For #7A to seek nearly as much in 2010 seems ambitious at least. The listing for #7A also mentions a pre-paid, two-year leaseback option. (The rent isn't specified.) I don't know of many buyers looking for an estate-condition six at a peak price, with a move-in date in 2013. Frankly, the high price and the lack of urgency about moving out make this listing look less than serious.

817 West End Avenue #7D
Condo, 3BR/1BA + maid's
Asks $1,500,000 CC $1170 RET $359
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/558202-condo-817-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

Entering 817 West End for the first time in over a year, I was taken aback by the lack of progress at this condo, which converted in 2007. The renovation of 817 might eventually restore some of the elegance the building once shared with its Neville & Bagge twin, 801 WEA. For now, the lobby remains a construction zone, and the public areas on most floors are still waiting their turn.

With little recent sales activity and even the available sponsor units pulled from the market, the many tenants who bought their apartments are now in conversion limbo, especially if they want to sell. #7D is a case in point. The owners have occupied this modest seven for 36 years . In 2007, the opportunity to buy their home for $1.046MM must have been compelling. Now they are seeking to sell for $1.5MM, and the unsettled condition of the building may pose a serious obstacle.

The apartment itself is part of the problem. The "D" line is a marginal seven, with one family bathroom, small bedrooms and limited storage. The living room and master face north, with moderate light and nondescript views of 825 WEA. The remaining eight windows face brick walls, at close range. #7D is in estate condition and, as the listing openly states, requires full renovation. Floors in the living room and dining room are in better shape than the other spaces, where condition is only fair. Walls and ceilings need extensive work. Electrical and plumbing systems will likely require immediate attention too.

These challenges are standard fare for buyers of pre-war wrecks. The question here is whether the apartment has sufficient upside to be worth the trouble, expense and risk - not just of the renovation, but of a building that seems like a permanent work in progress. Financing will probably be tricky too, since the building still has a high proportion of sponsor rental units. A condo-focused buyer with sufficient cash and diligence might find an opportunity here. For most buyers, the negatives probably outweigh the relatively low $/SF and monthlies.

285 Riverside Drive #3B
Coop, 3BR/2.5BA (classic six with expanded maid's room)
Asks $1,695,000, Maint. $2,128, Flip tax 2% by buyer
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/558482-coop-285-riverside-drive-manhattan-valley-new-york

285 RSD is an attractive coop that overlooks a divided section of Riverside Drive. The ornate lobby has been gently refurbished, so the entry makes a better first impression than some neighbors. Although the star here is the corner seven "A" line, the building also offers several good sixes. The best of these is probably "B", where the living room, both bedrooms and two bathrooms face the River.

#3B is a new listing that does not clear the trees, so the river views are seasonal. The windows take good advantage of the western exposure, and seem to block most noise from the Drive and the highway.

In the original "B" floorplan, the entertaining space runs nearly fifty feet, from the front to the back of the apartment. In #3B, the rearmost part of the dining room has been converted to a den with a set of pocket doors; this section has also been narrowed to reallocate some space to the adjacent maid's room. I think the layout works well; the living/dining area is still ample (35x14), and the den and expanded servant's chamber are sufficiently large and private to feel like real rooms in their own right.

Although #3B is by no means a wreck, it surely qualifies as "lived-in". The floors need work throughout - especially in the master bedroom, where the visible part of the floor is strangely pale, and a large section is concealed under a fish tank that will probably leave scars when removed. The kitchen needs a new floor. Otherwise, the kitchen is modern, well-equipped and entirely usable, with excellent storage, although the cabinets show significant wear and may need replacing before long. The walls throughout the apartment appear to be in acceptable condition, aside from the foil-papered half bath off the maid's room. The family baths are original and in fair condition; they are the most likely candidates for a substantial renovation expense.

At $1.695MM plus a 2% flip tax, #3B seems sensibly priced. Sixes at 285 have traded in a relatively narrow range, from $1.5-1.9MM, since 2005. A nearby comp, 300 RSD #2A, just sold for $1.85MM. That one was in better condition, but was less spacious.

"river views are seasonal". Having grown up with Hudson river views (unblocked. You could see from the Tappan Zee to the GWB) I can tell you that winter views, except after a snowfall, are pretty blah. That said, still nice to see some trees instead of other buildings.

The large living area is very nice.

"You could see from the Tappan Zee to the GWB."

Sounds nice. Hastings? Dobbs Ferry?

Riverdale. (and yes, up to the Tappan Zee, on a clear day at least). There are probably some apartments in Yonkers that can do the same, but I would think Hastings/ Dobbs Ferry would lack apartments, and hence the necessary elevation to clear the trees.

On another note, the treeline has risen in the last 30 years, probably here in Manhattan as well.

I thought about Riverdale, but from there can't you see a lot farther south than the GWB?

As for the treeline, the rate of growth depends on the block - even on the individual tree. For a view-oriented buyer, it definitely pays to know a linden from a locust.

West 81St, a comment and a question re your report on 3B at 285 RSD: regarding 2A at 300 RSD, your correct about it being less spacious and it being in better condition (actually, it was in MUCH better condition), but I think you left out something significant in that every single room at 300 RSD was on the park as compared to the kitchen, maids and DR at 285 being on the airshaft. I just thunk that makes a big difference and has to monetize itself in some way. Also, did you see 8C? That went into contract right away. I'd be curious to get your read there...

I missed these OH reports.
thanx

I saw apartment 12HJ at 219 West 81st Street (Avonova) a few weeks ago at an open house. I'm curious if anyone is familiar with this building and why the listed price of the apartment is so high (almost $1300 psf).

Building is a recent condo conversion. Looks like a high service building with plenty of staff on a Sunday afternoon. Nice lobby waiting area. Lots of building amenities, including a large gym with new machines, children's playroom with pool table and a small conference room all on the basement level. I also liked the double ramps on the sides of the steps leading to the front entrance of the building.

The apartment is a classic 6 with some original details such as transom windows. The living room is to the left of the entrance foyer and has nice light coming from two large windows. The dining room is to the right of the foyer and is quite spacious, but it would be difficult to utilize that space for another purpose such as a third bedroom or an office. Both bedrooms are a little small with only one closet in each room - the smaller bedroom did not have a bed in the room. Besides the living room, my favorite room in the apartment is the kitchen which was well designed, a little quirky and felt roomy although it is not large enough for a small table. My problem with the classic 6 is always the maid's room with the attached bathroom which are usually both small in size and do not seem well-suited to modern life. The owners put some money in renovating/decorating this apartment although some of the rooms needed some more work. The apartment price seems very high to me even though the building is quite service oriented and overall I liked the apartment.

west81st is our Avanova expert.

^^ although this isn't a true classic 6, right? isn't it a combo? I think the reason the two smallest bedrooms look small is that they weren't originally bedrooms in the first place.

ali r.

Sorry, all. I was away for the weekend and missed the recent posts on this thread.

rsm321: You're right - the "A" line at 300 RSD commands the corner, and has no interior windows. That's a big plus. I think it's a less important asset on low floors, where the views are limited anyway, but you're right. I have to quibble slightly with your "every single room at 300 RSD was on the park" statement, because the second bedroom faces south and has only an angle view. The "A" line at 300 also has issues with storage. Overall, though, 2A is a really nice apartment and I think it's a useful comp for 285 when adjusted for differences like condition.

I missed 285 RSD #8C, so I can't comment on that one. Clearly, the "B" and "C" footprints are very similar, except that "C" faces north instead of west. For those who wish they had seen #8C, it's worth noting that #5C was listed today, for $1.65MM.

Lobster / Front_Porch: On the floors at 219W81 where "H" and "J" are separate, 1BR apartments, the space you see as the second bedroom in #12HJ is the kitchen of the "H" unit. The dining room of #12HJ is the L/DR of the smaller "J" unit. #12HJ's third bedroom (or maid's room) is the "J" bedroom.

West81st, thank you for your informative comment about the Avonova apartment. It is amazing how different an apartment can look from the original two apartments that were combined. It does seem like a nice building so I will keep it in mind.

Lobster--we had a bid on a 2 br in the Avonova when it first converted (more than 2 years ago and before we bought our apt downtown). After receiving the offering plan, our lawyer advised us to SERIOUSLY reconsider because there were many red flags--potential problems down the line. I do not know if things are better now, but he was concerned about asbestos, the infrastructure (furnaces etc--which were not updated as part of the conversion) among other issues. So--just be sure you check it out very very carefully before making a decision!!

fleurdelys: That seems like sound advice.

300 Riverside Drive #11A
Co-op, 2BR/2BA (classic six with maid's quarters merged into kitchen)
Was $2,495,000, reduced to $2,295,000; maint. $2266
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/548708-coop-300-riverside-drive-manhattan-valley-new-york

When I first saw this listing, I cringed a bit at the pictures. On high floors, the corner "A" line at 300 RSD is all about the views. Columns and chandeliers aren't usually the most effective framing for Hudson River panoramas. After visiting #11A, though, I think the renovation is quite nice, and the decor would be fairly easy to adapt to a buyer's taste. As one would expect from the Corcoran team handling the sale, the apartment is impeccably staged and shows very well.

In #11A, the smallish C6 footprint has basically been consolidated into three distinct spaces. The original kitchen and maid's room comprise a bright, well-appointed eat-in kitchen with an open home-office station. The living and dining rooms have been joined to optimize the views from the entertaining area - with only minor interference from the aforementioned columns. The most daring change is the combination of the family bedrooms into an opulent master suite. That's an effective solution to the inadequacy of the master bedroom in the original "A" floor plan, which serves as a sitting room in #11A. The obvious drawback - especially with the maid's room gone - is that #11A has been reduced to a one-bedroom apartment.

Is there a market for this version of the "A" line? There's no shortage of empty-nesters on the Upper West Side with a taste for river views. In this neighborhood, though, the big money gravitates to apartments with three or more bedrooms. In the competition between #11A and the more conventional #9A, I think the lack of private space even for occasional visiting offspring (and grand-offspring, and just plain friends from out of town) puts #11A at a distinct disadvantage.

While I have not seen 9A, I have seen quite a few A-lines at 300 RSD (including 11A and 2A, which recently closed at $1.845M) and I must say that a HUGE advantage that 11A has is its window configuration in the maid's room and bathroom: While some A-line apartments have a typical small maid's bath window and ONE large window in the maid's room, 11A has the small maid's bath window and TWO windows in the maid's room. Thus, when the kitchen is opened-up, the window configuration (a triplet) is identical to the window configuration of the formal dining room next door -- the opened-up kitchen doesn't feel "opened-up," but rather, feels like an original formal entertaining space.

If I didn't explain it well above, simply look at pictures 2 and 4 in the listing below -- it's incredibly seamless (which is important if seeking top dollar):

http://corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=2044525&ohDat=10/17/2010 12:00:00 AM;

rsm321: Good point about the windows. The architect for #11A took advantage of a little quirk in the fenestration of the "A" line: the windows in the maid's quarters are set unusually close to each other. If you look at the building from the outside, the maid's room and maid's bath appear to share a window line. That arrangement enhances the facade, and it also creates interesting options when those rooms are combined.

In #11A, harmony with the dining room seems to have been a key goal - and as you note, this goal has been achieved admirably. In #13A, where the servant's rooms have been merged into a relocated kitchen, the architect opted for a twin rather than a triplet: http://www.corcoran.com/images/media/ListingPhotos/1886082.3.jpg
Here, the primary objective was to maximize views and minimize obstructions. Again, mission accomplished. Although the result is less elegant than #11A, it's effective in a space where the dining room and kitchen are more strongly divided, making symmetry less important.

#9A took the bluntest approach, keeping the original floorplan and installing large picture windows in major rooms. The effect is dramatic, but not very graceful.

fleurdelys, I just read your extremely helpful comment this morning. Thank you so much - very good information.

West81st, I think that someone like myself and my husband is the "market" for an apartment like 300 Riverside, 11A, although at a slightly lower price point would be better. In prewar apartments, the bedrooms are often small in size and I have seen a few apartments where 2 of 3 bedrooms were combined to make a large master bedroom. If you only need one other bedroom for guests, it works but as you say, the market is limited. I also like an expanded kitchen with eat-in-area. Not many closets in the apartment. My husband loves the view from the photos. But I agree for resale purposes, the market is small.

West81st, do you know if the building is wheel chair accessible and, if so, whether the access is through the front entrance or a side entrance?

Lobster: Unfortunately, I'm not an expert on accessibility. My impression, from walking in and out of 300RSD many times, is that the main entrance would be extremely challenging. The next time I'm up there, I'll ask the doorman.

West81st, Thank you for your response. I will be in that area next weekend and I go to the building and talk to the doorman.

210 West 90th street (Astor Court) PH5-
On the plus side: very well done renovation in move in condtion, terrace (more a patio feel) is absolutely charming, very quiet and private with lovely plantings.
On minus side - rooms are fairly small (especially living room area), there are interior steps in the apartment (into the closet in the master bedroom, for example), no "prewar" charm as the penthouses were built on the roof of the building by the sponsor in 1987, and only 2 closets. Also, after you take the elevator to the PH floor, you go OUTSIDE to a walkway to get to the apartment - charming, in good weather, not so charming in rain or snow.

Not sure if it's even 1150 sf - price seems high, but I do think it could get $1,400,000 to $1,500 ,000 only because of move-in condition and charm of terrace.

210 W 90th, PH 5
$1,695.00 with $2,113.46 maintenance.
"Sky and garden views" — the best euphemism for "no views"

This is one really, seriously strange place. The entrance to the apartment is THROUGH THE TERRACE, so in the winter, one gets out of the warm elevator, opens some service doors and finds him/herself outside, on the roof, in freezing darkness for a few minutes it takes to make a turn and reach the apartments.
Once in: the sizes are way smaller than the floorplan's. Also, the advertised second bedroom is pretty much a den, with no door and only a symbolic separation from the main area (which is mostly kitchen and the way to the kitchen.) Some very smart architectural ideas were used to spruce the place up but the feeling is that of a time share hotel: cute, well-designed, well-loved place with a huge maintenance.
The terrace itself is one of the several small cuts of what would be called a gallery in the Old World. The neighbors are just behind the wooden fenceone can literally hear them breathing.
Did anybody else see it?

The Normandy (140 Riverside Drive), PHG.
$3,300,000 with $3656 maintenance.
A great, stately wreck. Absolutely fantastic views.
But it affords surprisingly little privacy: the terrace below is always visible, and the heavily used PUBLIC outdoor space above make the apartment feel more like the top floor instead of proper penthouse. The terrace itself is extremely windy. One of the bigger concerns is the 27/7 noise from the compressor on the neighboring roof.
Also, it's being shown by a quite unpleasant person from Orsid...

Hello ph41, we probably saw each other today! Ships at night...
I was also impressed by the renovation and a bit put off by the neither-old-nor-new feel of the place. I didn't know that it was a fairly new addition to the building. Why the hell didn't whoever built it construct a proper entrance?

stakan - probably did pass each other - maybe you were the one also saying the rooms seemed a little small. Don't know if you noticed but PH4 has entrances inside the building after you make the turn off the elevator, so actually, not a lot of foot traffic on the outdoor walkway. And BTW that interior hallway is so narrow that I have a feeling you have to measure your furniture to make sure it can get in.
And I don't know where they came up with calling the terrace 568 sf (unless they're counting that study built out from the MBR, as part of the terrace footage. BTW, I did think the patio/terrace was charming.

What do you think it will go for? Considering that PH4, which was supposed to be in very bad condition, with not as nice outdoor space, went for $975,000 in 2009.

and i would add to someone who is convinced that he got the deal of the century.

ph1 - they got 568 sf terrace at the same place they got living/dining room at 31'1" (!) long. That one inch shout be a telling sign.
I'd never think that a penthouse can feel claustrophobic but you live and learn.

ph1 - sorry, didn't finish the post.
No, it wasn't me saying the rooms are small. And yes, the terrace/patio is charming and professionally done. As for the price, the weird entrance situation is a huge turn-off, as is the awful hallway situation.
PH4 has no outdoor space but it's more normal and when the weather turns bad, all those "538 sf" mean nothing but the walkway and hallways do. So I think they'll get around $1M if they're lucky. Will be interesting to wach.
Did you see anything else today?

30 mins, 3 OHs. I was hoping to hit the trifecta of 3 PHs, but missed one (broker not at lobby)

1) 171W71st, Dorilton. PHE, asking 4.5m. Both penthouses (PHE & PHW) are accessed by a different set of stairs from the 12th floor. The apt has undergone a newish renovation (3 years?) but with white trim, kitchen cabs, today's sunlight was not kind to minor paint blemishes. Renovation is neutral enough (herringbone floors, white wood cabs, white marble baths). Views are to the north, east mainly with pleasant glimpses of the park, Broadway/Verdi Square through the lowish parapet. The terrace wraps around most of the rooms, and there is a usable square patio. In contrast to the rest of the apartment, what should have been the glory of the space was a blank slate (or rather black tar roof). I didn't see a plant or an outdoor dining set. Hello! You're trying to get 4.5m - stage the damn terrace already. The paucity of plants/outdoor seating is thrown into harsh relief by the lushly landscaped PHW which has the Bway frontage.
Some price history - from memory, PhW lingered on the market in '05-'06 for 3mish, PhE sold about a year after that for the same price point. PhE's renovation was written up in NYT, and while it may be in good move-in condition, I can't see a 1.5m price premium over its sale price a few years ago.
Lastly, while the peaked glass roof over the living room is sensational, be prepared for a lot of maintenance.

2) 160 Riverside Drive, PHG, Normandy. One of my all time favorite buildings on the UWS. I've always wanted to visit the penthouses, and now I have. Great, great bones. I was practically hyperventilating over the white oak herringbone floors and the original tiled baths (why did they remove the kitchen?) According to the Orsid broker (I found her pleasant), this C6 apt has been inhabited since the building opened by a man who recently died in his 90s in full RC glory (rent was said to be under $500). This would account for the condition of the bathrooms - the tilework & fixtures are totally recoverable. Orsid has a relationship with many old-time UWS building sponsors, 140RSD, 322CPW, 171W71, Aldwyn, for example, and so doesn't have to work to get these listings. This is a sponsor unit at 3.3m, I predict it will sell soon close to ask. The wraparound terrace (no room for dining), low parapet, great northern view of the Hudson and skyline over lowish THs (from 87th-90s). The dining room & kitchen & maid's room (long and rectangular but usable) + larger than average maid's bath face north (best view, IMO) while the LR faces south. You don't see the views unless you step on the terrace.

3) I wanted to see the PH at the Harrison but the broker didn't show. As consolation, I went to see 1104, the last sponsor unit. I was curious to see the Harrison up close. I went to a pre-construction sales meeting back in the summer of '07, and had not been to see any of the finished units. 1104 is a 4br apt with Juliette balconies facing the JCC pool (it should be very obvious which apt it is from the street). It just breaks the base of the North building, so while the LR and DR face the Laureate, at least the 3 secondary bedrooms have not unpleasant views of the THs on 76th street. Finishes are fine, the ceiling ht 9' as promised (lower in some hallways and Mbath and Mbdroom), good enough product. The price? Hmm, from memory, similar units on lower floors closed for 3m, so an almost 2m premium for a little more light. I dunno. I suppose.

FYI... Normandy is 140 riverside drive

Yep, typo. I went to 140RSD, not 160.

Wonderful, columbiacounty is in "helpful cheery" mode tonight.

NYC10023 - so a lot of the "penthouses" in the UWS pre-war buildings are post-war add-ons? And you have to go up a service stair to get to them?

I don't know what the percentage is. I would say that penthouses accessible only by service stairs are in the minority. The 20s era buildings on RSD & WEA appear to have penthouses when built. It's the earlier buildings that have converted maids' quarters/common rooms (Ansonia, Dorilton, Astor Court, even the Dakota) function as "penthouses" today. A few buildings have in very recent years (Cornwall, Schwab House, 650? WEA) have added penthouses.

From my little eyrie I can see the PH's (or lack thereof) of many WEA pre-wars and yes, most are servants quarters. I don't think people valued PH's at the time. I suppose wealthy people built themselves a mansion, or at least a TH with rooms for the servants.

That said, those who do have what passes for PH's in these buildings are still the envy of the downstairs neighbors for the outdoor space, which tends to be substantial. Of course the PH residents envy the high ceilings and large rooms below. I guess the grass is always greener.

I've always thought that the ideal situation would be to duplex the smaller apt upstairs (esp. if there's no elevator access) with a larger on the bottom. Use the upstairs apt for living, dining, maybe master bedroom.

I saw what appeared to be an almost original-as-built PH at 250W94th 5-6 years ago (estate wreck, classic 6, no views, terrace). The downstairs neighbor ended up buying and duplexing with another 6 (different footprint). Recently went into K at what, 6? 7? More than the sum of the 2.

Closed a few months ago for $7,800,000: http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/503740-coop-250-west-94th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

Seller paid $4,800,000 for 15H and the PH in 2006.

I think outdoor space wasn't as valued in a lot of these older residences because there was a house on Long Island for that.