For $2.495M, who'd you rather...?

are you a dad or a stud?

dud?

Soho place is really in China Town!! Just a block north of Canal.

The Park Slope limestone.

Even if you are a stud. You can bring the model types you meet/date in Manhattan home with you to Park Slope.
Then swing from room to room. Make all the noise you want.

"Let's do it on the rug!" (Prizzi's Honor)

Ha, thanks. Not a stud. Just an average guy with a wife. Planning to have kids at some point. Trying to gauge which is a generally better investment. The Manhattan loft (even if not this exact one) or the Park Slope brownstone?

Limestone, if P.S. 321. Low, low taxes (capped, btw). Flexibility - house could last you a lifetime if you eventually needed less space and rented part of it out.

BTW, pretty house BUT for 2.5m in PS you should be able to get 4 stories, 20 feet wide.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sales/nyc/type:T|school:ps321-brooklyn

Or if your kids are already at St Ann's, Packer, Poly, BC, etc. then I would look for a house with better subway access. Mid 2m should get you over 20 feet wide, 4 stories if not in Bk Hts (and maybe even then if you sacrifice size & condition).

Definitely the Park Slope limestone. As a parent with 2 kids, you will want that separate floor when the kids are older so you have some piece of mind by directing them down to the basement Rec room. I think the park slope will hold value better, Lafayette street is too close to chinatown, the tunnel and all the traffic.

Park Slope limestone, hands down.

But what's with all the random sinks??

The limestone, definitely. But if it were me, although 3rd St. is gorgeous, I'd probably buy a house with a deeper lot so I could have a larger backyard. And understand that this one will probably take at least $500k to renovate.

"definitely the park slope limestone"

i'm surprised so many people think so. that house is only 16' wide--$2.5 million should get you something much better than that in the slope. i don't love that loft, it looks overdesigned, and they location is sort of a mixed bag. but living in even a less than prime, but still central, area of downtown manhattan is very special. i don't know where you live now, but if you live in manhattan i highly recommend that you RENT in brooklyn before buying there. brooklyn is great, but it is very, very different, and certainly not for everyone (not for me).

that said, i don't think you can really compare these two properties: it's kind of like saying, do you want a shack south of the highway in east hampton, or an estate with hudson river views in putnam county? it's a question of taste. if you care about the beach, no estate on the hudson will be worth it to you. as for investment...i'd say neither is really an obviously good buy.

We were only given two choices. I pointed out that 2.5m for under 20ft is overpaying. I think the real question is "downtown loft" or "PS townhouse" at the 2.5m price point.

Miette: Those >130 ft lots are only in the Prospect Heights area, no? And then you have to contend with the school issue.

Location also depends on how much you care about commuting time to work. Park slope is limited if you have to switch jobs. Think working in CT.

It depends, would you rather walk to work or have a place for the in-laws? are you very social or a homebody? Are you handy, do you like to tinker or garden? If you have a free evening, would you rather meet friends at a new bar, or host a dinner? Do you work 40 hours/week, 60, 80? I wouldn't personally pick that loft or that house, but both generic choices are fine as long as they support your ideal lifestyle. I agree with happyrenter, if you've never lived in Park Slope, rent before you buy. As to the better investment, who knows? i don't think one can pick a class that will outperform, but you can pick a house or apartment that's a better deal (not those two imo.)

Townhouse in Brooklyn or apartment in Manhattan? Two very different things. In the end, I think it will come down to personal preference. Personally, I love every single part of Manhattan; it has an energy that, no matter what the naysayers say, will never fade. But, Park Slope is beautiful and picturesque. As far as which is the better investment, I would agree that a townhouse in prime Brooklyn might be the better choice, for the flexibility it allows for the future.

Upping the price a bit, for $2.9M, do you go with a Park Slope 2nd Street Limestone that is 21' wide, 4 stories, on a park block:
http://www.bhsbrooklyn.com/detail.asp?id=1151084

Or one of these babies:

Greenwich Village apartment with terrace:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/524710-coop-42-west-13th-street-greenwich-village-new-york

Chelsea loft:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/550094-condo-144-west-27th-street-chelsea-new-york

happyrenter--none of the properties that joeny included would ever be considered a "shack," no matter what your personal preferences might be.

wait--did i call one of the properties a shack? what are you talking about?

west12th,

you are also comparing a beautiful house in park slope to two mediocre and overpriced manhattan apartments--particularly the loft on 27th street. that price point is insane for that apartment in that location.

how about these, at the original price point:

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/554273-condo-161-grand-street-nolita-new-yorkhttp://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/554273-condo-161-grand-street-nolita-new-york

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/541747-townhouse-46-montgomery-place-brooklyn

an aside: i bought my place last fall; i must say i amazed at how much things have changed since then. where is the quality inventory down town?

i totally agree that it's a manhattan or brooklyn question, not this property or that property. i might pick the loft b/c i'm not a big park slope fan (even though i love TH's).

to raise kids in chinatown?? vs park slope??

id hold off on the kids until you get a better grasp of what you will face

How much do you think the condo in Soho goes for/should go for?

?

wbottom, PS 130 (the school zoned for 161 Grand) is the top elementary school in District 2, above darlings like PS 6, PS 234 or PS 41. The main issue with that area is the lack of green spaces, but on the other hand, there are a lot of kid-friendly art spaces, like the Children's Museum of the Arts on Lafayette, the Bleecker Street theatre has kids' plays, and lots of kids' classes: dance, yoga, one of the best kids' gym in the city, etc..

you may well be correct that the public elementary school for this neighborhood is quite good, if not better than well-regarded schools in more residential neighborhoods

we all have our respective, legitimate, respectable approaches to education; but were I starting a family, and able to afford a 2.5 mm dollar piece of RE, i would find a place in my budget for private school--that's just me, though

there are several very good schools, both public and private, that serve neighborhoods within park slope

there are far more non-school programs for children in park slope than in chinatown

street life and outdoor (green space) life for children is, as you say, completely superior in park slope

park slope is a neighborhood much more populated by families than is chinatown. the thrust of businesses/government in the neighborhood is focussed on this.

the social implications of living among other families in park slope, vs the situation in chinatown, are obvious.

if one were stuck in a rent-stabilized apt that was a unique deal, or if there were special circumstances that required a presence, i could understand raising a family in chinatown. but in freely choosing btwn park slope and chinatown, for a neighborhood in which to buy a 2.5 mm home in which to raise a family, there seems no logic to choose chinatown--

wbottom, I think you are talking about it from an outsider perspective. There are plenty of reasons to choose an excellent public school over private schools, but as a parent these are my 2: 1- the level of education is far superior in a great public school than at most private schools, and 2- I don't want my kids to turn into over-privileged snots. They need to work to value and know themselves (not that fluffy self-esteem) and they need to see how the other 99% live. I am not breeding hothouse orchids.
I am not sure where there are more kids' classes, Park Slope or Soho/Chinatown, you'd probably be surprised how many businesses and not-for-profits cater to the kids' crowd Downtown. The main difference is how dense the layers are packed in Manhattan (for good and bad.) I most certainly didn't say street life is better in PS; the only true and real advantage is Prospect Park.

actually maly--very much an insider--born at st vincent's (RIP) and raised, educated through HS, in NYC--attended both public and private myself--have lived here all but 10 years of my life--raising two kids, one of whom just began college, having graduated from what is certainly one of the best public schools in the country; while the other attends private high school--my kids are doing beautifully, thanks

i was trying to avoid an argument over child-rearing philosophies, and the merits of private vs public school. It's so tiresome the various dogma about helicopter parents, "hothouse orchids", snotty over-privileged, fluffy self-esteem, ill-prepared kids whose parents may social experiments of them, etc--

the point was that the person shopping to spend $2.5 mm would be able to afford private school if they chose to, and that there are good private and public schools accessible to park slope--and chinatown certainly has no exclusive on decent schools, public or private

chinatown is minimally populated by families, it's streets are noisy/crowded/busy with commercial and industrial activities, its traffic is painful, and many of it's blocks are, simply, filthy--it's just not a great family neighborhood--and it has no park remotely like central, prospect, riverside, morningside, battery, etc

and i love chinatown, might even choose to live there once my kids are lainched; but there's a reason there are so few families that choose to buy $2.5 mm homes there--it's just not a great family neighborhood--park slope, whether you agree or not, is known to be one of the best urban family neighborhoods in the country

among knowledgeable people with 2.5mm to spend, nearly invariably the choice would be obvious to raise a young family in park slope vs chinatown

Any experts care to chime in with where they think both of these units go in this market? Appreciate it.

I don't want to oversell Chinatown as the ultimate kids-friendly neighborhood (because it's not); my only disagreement (and it is absolute) is with your assertion that anybody with a 2.5M budget (or more) and children would choose Park Slope/private schools over Chinatown/top 5 elementary school in Manhattan. I wouldn't move to Chinatown (too dirty) or to Park Slope (too boring/far from work), but I know parents who have made choices in either direction, and they're both fine choices (for them). There is in my mind nothing obvious or invariable about it, as in fact I know people who have spent way more to live in that corner of the world, instead of what would be a mansion in Park Slope.

I'm with maly on this; different families have different tastes, and for some Chinatown works. I represented a family of four at 161 Grand, and they were quite happy there.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

read what i said:

we all have our respective, legitimate, respectable approaches to education; but were I starting a family, and able to afford a 2.5 mm dollar piece of RE, i would find a place in my budget for private school--that's just me, though

there are several very good schools, both public and private, that serve neighborhoods within park slope

the point was that the person shopping to spend $2.5 mm would be able to afford private school if they chose to, and that there are good private and public schools accessible to park slope--and chinatown certainly has no exclusive on decent schools, public or private

read what you said:

my only disagreement (and it is absolute) is with your assertion that anybody with a 2.5M budget (or more) and children would choose Park Slope/private schools over Chinatown/top 5 elementary school in Manhattan.

Note the disconnect.

And Alison, you are a Manhattan Real Estate broker who actively seeks clients on this site. Clearly you should disqualify yourself from discussions of Brooklyn vs Manhattan.

Please read your last comment, the one I responded to: "among knowledgeable people with 2.5mm to spend, nearly invariably the choice would be obvious to raise a young family in park slope vs chinatown"
Now does my answer make sense to you?

i maintained throughout my commentary (as illuminated again and again) that the choice of park slope as a place to raise a family would be obvious for most, regardless of whether the family plans that the children attend public or private school---you have consistently sought to mischaracterize that i consider the choice to necessarily include private school--so no, your answer (below) still makes no sense:

your assertion that anybody with a 2.5M budget (or more) and children would choose Park Slope/private schools over Chinatown/top 5 elementary school in Manhattan.

wbottom,

if the choice of park slope rather than chinatown to raise a family "would be obvious for most," then it's hard to understand why thousands of families choose to live in chinatown at rents and purchase prices higher than those in park slope? can you not comprehend that there might be taste differences at work here, rather than an "obvious for most" difference of inherent quality?

this argument has gotten absurd.

Dude, do we both speak English? it is NOT about the choice for private school at all, as I have not referred to private schools in Brooklyn or Manhattan being in any way different, better or closer. "I consistently sought to mischaracterize that" what??
It's about the fact that some people with kids and 3M will choose Chinatown, and not because they're bonkers or ignorant of the superior Park Slope alternative, but because they prefer it as a place to raise their families.

wbottom, I admit I do have a very strong Manhattan bias. I own two Manhattan properties and do 90% of my work here.

But I have lived in both boroughs, and I do place clients in both boroughs. In fact, I currently have a buyer in contract in Prospect Heights.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

ahaha - where's jordyn? this reminds of the "to ivy or not to ivy for law school" debate :)

Some people prefer to live in Chinatown instead of Park Slope - True
Some people prefer to live in Park Slope instead of Chinatown - True
Some people with children prefer to live in Chinatown instead of Park Slope - True
Some people with children prefer to live in Park Slope instead of Chinatown - True
Some people who can afford to spend 2.5 M on real estate prefer to live in Chinatown instead of Park Slope - True
Some people who can afford to spend 2.5 M on real estate prefer to live in park Slope instead of Chinatown - True
Some people with chidlren who can afford to spend 2.5 M on real estate prefer to live in Chinatown instead of Park Slope - True
Some people with children who can afford to spend 2.5 M on real estate prefer to live in park Slope instead of Chinatown - True

did i miss anything else?

then why are you adding to it? uselessly

most knowledgeable people of decent means who plan to raise a family, if they had a choice between doing so in park slope vs chinatown, would not find it much of a dilemma to choose park slope--period

find me something comparable re chinatown:

Park Slope is considered one of New York City's most desirable neighborhoods. In 2010, it was ranked #1 in New York by New York Magazine citing its quality public schools, dining, nightlife, shopping, access to public transit, green space, quality housing, safety, and creative capital, among other aspects.[7]

It was named one of the "Greatest Neighborhoods in America" by the American Planning Association in 2007, "for its architectural and historical features and its diverse mix of residents and businesses, all of which are supported and preserved by its active and involved citizenry." [8]

In December 2006, Natural Home magazine named Park Slope one of America's ten best neighborhoods based on criteria including parks, green spaces and neighborhood gathering spaces; farmer’s markets and community gardens; public transportation and locally-owned businesses; and environmental and social policy.