Shady clients or shady brokers: Which came first?

To me, this is just more evidence of how shady brokers are... that they are trying to use working with two brokers or cancelling appointments as a rationalization as lying about square footage, inventing fake buyers, etc.

If this is really the "horror story" collection, then my opinion of brokers just went even lower (which I didn't think was possible).

Of course, as always, none of this applies to Noah.

NYCREAgent
about 4 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse All of the above has happened to me, yet I manage to maintain a level of professionalism. It's hard, but I do try.

http://theapplepeeled.com/renters/shady-clients-or-shady-brokers-which-came-first/

common laments for someone who hasn't built the listing side of their business effectively. if you are the listing agent, who cares if their working with mulitiple brokers? they can only see your listings through you. whenever i have had to show open listings, and have found out that the clients are working with other brokers, i have politely told them i'm not interested in showing them anything if they are working with other agents. why waste the time?

I don't think it's a rationalization. Rather, it shows that clients sometimes force agents to resort to shady tactics in order to survive.

I kind of think that is backwards. Every time i have ever gone to rent it is the broker who tells me they have exclusive things and that it is fine if i have seen other listings through someone else just let them know which ones i have seen.

Also i find the example of someone calling and a broker dropping everything to make appointments, if true, just shows how unprofessional brokers are. If you were professionals which is how you ask to get paid, you would know that you should never take on that level of work without meeting someone first.

Based on this example i could just call any broker and tell them i am getting booted from my apartment and need an apartment within a week, tell you my criteria and then send you on your way to make an appointment. How do you know i even exist in the sense that i am looking. There is nothing like face to face to make sure someone is actually serious.

I know that the recruiters that place people in the accounting profession will not send out any potentail candidate until they have personally met the person, a phone call is a great starter, however after that they still want to meet.

There is no reason that brokers should not be doing the same and if not then shame on you, don't go blame nonexistent people and then say it is all our faults and we should give you a break.

Because i am sure that if you ask everyone here for stories we will get a much better picture of the shady broker, then the shady client that does not exist, or asks for a deposit back. that story in itself makes no sense either. why work with broker A if they supposedly knew so many people there that had more power then the broker to get them to refund the deposit?

Client called me on an apartment. Took him to see it. Said it was too small. During the two weeks I was working with him he was late to appointments, cancelled appointments, didn't return phone calls or respond to emails. Two days before his lease was up he called me in a panic because he still didn't have a place to live. Put a deposit on an apartment. We were supposed to meet the next day so I could get his paperwork for the management company. Sent an email to confirm. No response. Called him. No response. Suddenly I get an email that he will no be taking the apartment because he feels like he is settling due to time constraints (which he created).

Client called me on an apartment. Great budget but high expectations. Spent two days scouting apartments for her in addition to the one she contacted me on. Sent pictures; got approval, confirmed the appointment, she didn't show up. Told me her phone died (*67 caused her phone to miraculously spring to life). I asked for a reschedule and she said she would have to call me right back. I started giving her my number and she disconnected the call.

"Every time i have ever gone to rent it is the broker who tells me they have exclusive things and that it is fine if i have seen other listings through someone else just let them know which ones i have seen."

The problem is they stack agents and most of them can't/won't tell you they've seen something until they're in front of the building.

If there were just two parties -- tenant brokers and customers -- one could conceivably call it a mudfight and tell everyone to go hang.

The problem is, bad customer behavior is more overreaching than that. It wastes the time of "innocent" listing agents, owners, landlords, and existing tenants, who have to take the baby out in the stroller to be away during that "emergency" one o'clock appointment that was never an emergency in the first place.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

the client who had great budget, did you meet her prior to doing all that work? That really is my point anyone can call and get you to do anything, there have to be controls on your part. speaking to someone on the phone is not good enough when your time is valuable.

There is a reason why lawyers and accountants for the most people will have someone sign an engagement letter prior to doing work. Even my real estate attorney did not want to take me on until we met in person. It is just good business practice.

Honestly part of the problem is that there are to many brokers out there. If you somehow limited the amounts, either go the california route and actually have an education behind you or something else. really any failed individual who can't figure out what to do with there life decides that hey i can just be a broker. Then you all have to many people, which is part of why you claim you need such high fees. If you cut down the number, then you would have more listings to spread around to the few that remain, cut the fees, people will then not feel they need to keep calling eveyr person until they got the best deal out there.

Typical behavior of the players in the open rental market... Unfortunately, it's a mess and these stories are the nature of the beast. The clandestine nature of the flow of information and multiple brokers advertising the same property differentely begets customers acting this way. I don't think it's shady, moreso human nature; someone wanting more for less. A broker working on open listing rentals has zero connection to either principal. No contract with the owner and no customer loyalty. That's a recipe for having your time wasted over and over again from my perspective. I realized this years ago and gracefully bowed out of the open rental market. Although I'm very thankful for the experience, the risk/reward didn't compute for me. There is a place for a broker doing this sort of business, but that broker better have a thick skin and be well aware that these are the lumps they will take.

But Mike, a client who hires Broker B without telling Broker A -- and then takes a rental through Broker B -- isn't saving any money.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Ali

At the end of the day i can find Broker B willing to take less money on a fee.

My point is that with an overabundance of brokers it causes a lot of issues. You all have the access to the same open listings and a lot of times claim to have listings no one else has, exclusive, which of course turns out to be lies because they then tell you it is some apartment you have already seen.

I am not going ot argue that us renters are not part of the problem, but the way the system is set up the brokers themselves make us feel that we have to work with multiple brokers in order to find all the available apartments.

The same goes when looking to buy an apartment. I always see the same things said.

More transparancy on how the brokers work will then make their clients more loyal to one broker. The more information out there that makes it seem that we need to speak to many of you, the harder it is to blame the client for doing just that.

And as to saving money, they always are willing to talk, going to my point that there are really just to many fish in the sea. Cut down the amount of brokers in new york city and this will most liekly change.

Well, Mike, I've got no problem with that: I'd probably make more money if I had fewer competitors.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

rental brokers are expensive impediments to the renting of apts....for both LL's and tenants

they are impediments to the apartments that have in house leasing staff as the larger companies do, however for the smaller landlord they are a means to an end as they do not want to have to go and verify each potential renter and be on site to show the apartment. Also when they do not have to pay the fee anyway, they do not care.

Cut down the number of brokers, which will then make everyone deal with each other in a more friendly manner, cut down the fees, let brokers who do well actually earn more, not through high fees, but through being able to take on more clients as the number of brokers are reduced.

There are three players- renters, landlords, brokers. Landlords and brokers are in it long term. The renter is in only so long as it takes to find and rent one apartment. How can anyone possibly come to any conclusion that the shortest-term participant seeking only ONE transaction through to the end is the party that is responsible for anything? How is the party who brings just the money to the table - not the product, not the service - the responsible party for the problems in the industry? And lastly what is karma in a business deal but an excuse to be lazy and still hope things work out - sorry to be so harsh, but you have to solve your own problems.

Wbottom is right. Rental brokers add zero and, in fact, stand in the way of efficient transactions. Plus, they are generally lying scumbags. Other than that, I like them just fine.

People are shady when they are forced to deal with middle-men, the majority of whom don't have any professionalism.

The real problem is that in the age of the internet, the professionalism of real estate brokers has gone from bad to abominable.

I worked in real estate right as the internet was starting to take hold. Brokers still did shady stuff, but at least they worked to develop relationships with the owners and renters to try and find the right fit. They had their own inventory and not everyone was hammering the same properties.

Nowadays the broker occupation is overrun with people who got their license by taking the "one-week intensive real estate course" and think they are going to make lots of money.

What they find out is that they are all fighting over getting someone into the same apartment listing and will encounter increasingly more irritated renters who have been shown the same apartment by different brokers, and told all kinds of stories previous to seeing that listing.

On top of that you see 1 bedrooms advertised as a 2 bedroom. 2Bedrooms advertised as a 4 bed. Full-on lies about square footage. You see all sorts of lies in the ads.

Just go to the Craigslist "by owner" listings in Manhattan and see how many listing are actually by owner, see how many of the listings match the realist of the apartment. See how many of the images are fake: http://newyork.craigslist.org/search/fee/mnh?query=&srchType=A&minAsk=&maxAsk=&bedrooms=2&nh=138

The New York Times Etc. ain't much better.

Try calling those brokers and find out how many times they tell you an apartment is on a given street and it is actually 1-2 blocks away.

There are simply way too many brokers. Most of them are not really brokers. They are people who needed a job quickly. They are door-openers with access to a database. And on top of that building owners take advantage of the situation by requiring renters to pay for the privilege of dealing with brokers who have not spent any time developing their profession.

The rental broker market needs 10 times more regulation. Then these horror stories that brokers are crying about will be justified. But until then this is simply the affect of a jaded consumer who has been burned way too many times.

Sorry that link was to fee listings, here is the link to by owner listings: http://newyork.craigslist.org/search/fee/mnh?query=&catAbb=abo&srchType=A&minAsk=&maxAsk=&bedrooms=2&nh=138

So you have an idea of how I advertise, here is an ad I placed on CL.

http://www.postlets.com/rts/4567043

This is an actual apartment, with actual pictures, and an actual floorplan.

NYCRE, who is your customer, and what is the product or service you are offering to that customer? I see Jim above very clearly state that his customer is the landlord and the service is getting the landlord's apartment filled with a paying tenant. So the customer can rightly assume that the brokerage fee is a subsidy of the landlord's marketing expense. What about you and your service?

Clarifying the second to last sentence: so the tenant / renter can rightly assume ...

"What they find out is that they are all fighting over getting someone into the same apartment listing and will encounter increasingly more irritated renters who have been shown the same apartment by different brokers, and told all kinds of stories previous to seeing that listing."

So, why not just stick with one agent?

"So, why not just stick with one agent? "

Because you have to find a good broker first, who is honest and professional, who is really going to put in an effort to find you the right place as opposed to trying to make a quick buck. That is extremely hard, as you will deal with 25 numbnuts brokers before you find one good, professional broker.

My experience is that 90% of the brokers will simply search a database, try to show you whatever seems to fit your criteria, try to get you in, and if not they move on to some out-of-town sucker who does not know better.

This is really not even a discussion. Just go check out NY Times, Craigslist, Streeteasy, etc. and see how much nonsense is there.

I don't care about open listing brokers and I tell them straight up that I only care about their exclusive listings and I don't want to see any open listings.

Again - the solution is to make it much more difficult to become a rental broker. This iwll eliminate most of the slime. This would shut down citi-habitats and garbage agencies of their ilk, like Manhattan Apartments, etc.

The service I provide is making your apartment search as uncomplicated as possible. Most of the stress renters talk of is self-induced. If they would just be honest with us we would be able to find them exactly what they're looking for.

"My experience is that 90% of the brokers will simply search a database, try to show you whatever seems to fit your criteria"

So, basically they're doing what they're being paid to do?

If renters "would just be honest." Bullshit. The moment a prospective renter starts looking at the real estate classified they are greeted with an onslaught of deception, come-ons, and outright lies.

Again, just look at the listings and watch the same apartment get listed over and over again. Look at the fake listings.

***

NYCREAgent, if you consider yourself a truly professional broker then you should agree with me and recognize that the low barrier of entry to the NYC broker profession has eradicated the reputation of brokers in NYC (Manhattan especially) because it is now overrun with scammers.

And you would want the crap brokers who are ruining it for everybody to get out of the game, instead of trying to blame the people who simply want to find an apartment.

Here is a good start. All rental brokers simply start telling the truth. Stop posting fee apartments in no-fee directories. Stop posting as if you are the owner of a place when you are not. Stop telling people that a unit is your exclusive when it isn't.

Then, when you have help yourself to those standards, you can start whining about the renters. until then, you get what you give.

I think that is simplistic. You may be an exception as there are brokers on here that i consider exceptions, however i do not believe most brokers are out to make your life uncomplicated. They realize they have one shot to make money and will say anything to make you think they are the one with the listing no one else has. Meanwhile you meet with them or email back and forth and it is the same old listings.

It really does come down to regulation of the industry. we need a system where if you want to be paid like professionals you should actually be professionals. None of this one week quick course. go out and take college level courses in real estate like in california and then we will see the amount of brokers go down, and be more qualified to actually help you out. When anyone can pay little money and time to get that license it defeats the purpose of the license.

I promise you that if you cut off the bottom feeders who will lie, sell and cheat their own family for a commission, and leave us with the honest brokers who want to help you find the perfect apartment for you, not the apartment that comes close and they push and push and push and tell you make up your mind yesterday because it will be gone. Then and only then will you not hear as many horror stories.

So, the renter should tell the agent exactly what they're looking for! I can't count how many clients I have had who miraculously put an extra $500 in their budget when their crappy budget yields crappy results. "You want to be under $2000 in the West Village, this is what you get. For $2500, I know a building with availabilities where you can get an elevator and laundry." Ca-ching! $500 miraculously appears!

What Mikev Said. ^^

RE; Listing Searchers: "So, basically they're doing what they're being paid to do?"

NYCREAgent, with your answers, you are revealing yourself as a defender simple database searchers who are not really professionals.

You don't want to recognize the widespread abuse of the system by fly-by-night brokers, so that makes me wonder what dealing with you might be like.

So are you a simple OLR listings broker saying anything to get an application? Or are you a broker working to find the gems, develop relationships, and match them up with the right fit? If you are so worried about the bad renters, then don't deal with them! The same way I tell 99 out of 100 brokers to get to steppin'!

I'm not a broker, I'm an agent.

You want to know what it's like to deal with me? Send someone my way! I think they'll report back that I was professional, honest, and really tried to find them the best apartment I could.

As i said there are exceptions to the rule. The problem is you hear about all the bad issues, and not the good ones. I personally have a broker i became close with who i would have no issue recommending and knowing what he would do for people. But he is also working on his own which cuts out a lot of the fat involved with the bigger firms.

In addition did you just see the article on brick underground relating to on site leasing agents. It also touches on agents in general and more or less says the same thing i have been saying. here is the quote

"If you use a broker, use an experienced one

The barrier to entry to get your real estate license in New York is almost laughably low. Make sure the agent you’re working with knows what they’re doing. The best broker to use is one who has done a lot of business in the neighborhood and ideally the building(s) you’re interested in. They’ll have relationships with “the on-sites” and may be able to get you a better deal because they’ll know the right questions to ask. If you already know which buildings you’re interested in, I would recommend going to the building directly. However, if you’re unfamiliar with the area or don’t have a lot of time to devote to the search process then enlisting the help of a broker is probably a good move."

Okay NYCREAgent, I take you at your word. But try and pose as a prospective renter for a month and see the amount of garbage and lies they have to deal with, and I think what you will really be asking for is reform of your profession.

Nycreagent, it's part of the job to filter through all the stuff renters say they want/need (price, location, size, ameneties, etc) and figure out what the one singular thing is that will swing the deal. I don't know how many times wv renters became uws renters because, though they said initially they "had" to be in the wv, all they kept communicating on the appointment was "space, space, size". So, listen, know your product, and be willing to spring for cab fare or be prepared to show stuff over their budget, etc

" Rather, it shows that clients sometimes force agents to resort to shady tactics in order to survive."

NO ONE forces brokers to lie and cheat.

That is EXACTLY what rationalization is.

Shady people came first...then they decided to be a real estate sales agent, or hedge fund manager, or mortgage broker, or ...

Every field has their fair share of rotten apples - you just have to get better at seeing the worms before there is a big problem.

As a former broker, I could fill a book about shady renters and the BS they pull. As a kind-hearted agent, I always wanted to give the renter the benefit of the doubt. I was often let down.

But there is a way to circumvent all this; get a terrific no fee apartment for rent from a reputable no fee rental company such as http://www.rent-direct.com. They have the same listings brokers have (I know, because they sell their listings to brokers). They also have a very useful, well writing, and highly targeted to NYC rental guide for renting without a broker, "The Essential Guide for Smart Renters" at http://www.rent-direct.com/rentingguide.

> Every field has their fair share of rotten apples

Of course, some fields are completely rotten, and the good guys the rate exception.

Did you know that the last time w67thstreet rented an apartment, he didn't pay his last months' rent?