Agents, What Do YOU Think of Craigslist?

Having to deal with all the spam is annoying and time consuming.

There are no agents on streeteasy boards. All of the agents on streeteasy have been called "borkers", lazy, undereducated, and deceptive in their dealings. So they don't appear anymore. If a new one shows up, see here for how the streeteasy boards respond: http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/23685-keep-an-eye-out-401-east-60th-st-apt4abc

Funny thing is, most of the spam comes from people you will actually end up meeting.

If you have a real exclusive with good price and location, it works pretty well. Worth the ten bucks.

Rentals, yes. Sales, no.

Don't get me wrong, Craigslist is a terrible website, best suited for selling your Crate and Barrel furniture at a deep discount or buying something that you absolutely need the same day (such as tickets). But, it's better to be covered and have it out there than not have your listing be on there at all. Plus, the people that look for sublets (again, I'm only focusing on renting) will also look at the regular rentals so you may get lucky.

If I get anything other than spam from Craigslist, it'd in the first couple of hours. That leaves 6+ days of nothingness. I have, however, had some success with people saying that they saw my property when I listed it there for an open house. MRussell, I totally agree with your 'Rentals, yes, Sales, no." observation.

why post on Craigslist when you can post on SE.

I have recently posted the same apartments on both SE and CL. I also posted on Rent-Direct.
RDNY produced no contacts, which has been my edperience with it in recent years.

SE produced two in 12 days as a rental: one who had pets that my ad said weren't allowable,
and another who argued with me about my asking price and felt it important to let me know
what he wasn't willing to pay and when he wasn't willing to move (I dont like to hog all
the good tenants so I left him for another landlord).

Contacts off CL were of mized quality: many no-shows but also some extremely nice people.
All three rented tgo tenants that I am genuinely happy to have.

I just can't even look at craigslist any more. There's just too much dross. Even if there are legit ads in there, I doubt I would find it -the other stuff's taint is so strong.
Sux.

helenwaite, I can honestly say I have never posted a fake ad on CL. But CL is a lead generator. We know they're calling 25 different agents a day; sometimes more. In fact, I tell people to print out all the CL ads they're calling on and bring them in. You know the ones, don't you? West Village, SS appliances, marble bath, WIC, W/D in unit, roofdeck.....$2500? You should see their faces when we put the exact prices in our huge database and come up with a blank screen.

Scott K
Bond New York

We sometimes post our listings on craigslist, generally pointing people to open houses. For sales it does nothing, for rentals you can get good tenants. However, there's a new problem, which is that the minute you post your phone number it generates unbelievable amounts of text msg. spam. Anyone who has suggestions on how to cut that down, I'd appreciate it.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Ali, I thought the no spam rule for posting an email address or phone number on the Internet was to disguise it. For example contact me at: MYADDRESS HOTMAIL COM or call me at:TWO12/NINE57/88FIVE4. The downside is it doesn't look very professional for someone like yourself, but the upside is the information won't be picked up by a computer.

Have a land line listed. You can't send a text to a land line.

CL is a lead generator. It's full of lies but apt hunters inquire regardless. For how long before its utility is replaced by more transparent, more responsible sites? Probably another year or two, IMO.

Roro, I understand your frustration with CL. Believe me, I hate it. However, as long as people think it's the only way to find an apartment there will be scammers.And as long as those same people call 25 agents a day there will be scammers. Most people who I deal with can't even tell you the name of the last agency they saw apartments with because they call so many. And, as evidence of scams, many don't realize they have to fill out a registration card. "Why do I have to fill this out? No one else has asked me to do this." That's because they weren't real agents.

Scott K

Bond New York

I think CL will fade as a go-to site for apt hunters. http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/entrepreneurs-rush-into-nyc-real-estate-market

Eventually one of these sites like Naked Apartments or Urban Edge will get it right and be bought out by Google, and it will be GoogleApartments for open listings.

I have tried Naked Apartments and didn't get a single lead.

Scott K

Bond New York

UESaptowner, SE is all landlords and exclusives. CL is all open listings. And, as we have discussed here, CL is a lead generator. Many people complain about "bait and switch" ads on CL. My experience, as someone who DOES NOT post ads with fake pictures, is that no matter how beautiful and high quality the apartment in the pictures is they never want that apartment anyway. That's why you need at least 9 or 10 as backup.

Scott K
Bond New York

Just rented a 1-bd FRBO in Forest Hills thru CL as my sole advertising site. Took about four
days with deficient photos. Got 6 callers, four showings, and a fifth deferred and cancelled
by me showing after the apartment rented.

My new tenant is an exceptionally nice person. Three of the others had attitudes or ranged in
rudeness from merely infuriating to wanting to post their photos on an Al Queda site wearing
sandwich boards deriding Islam.

I think CL has deteriorated in recent years for a number of reasons, one of which is spallming.
Last week I broke down the Clinton Hill rental market because I have a 2-bd coming up for rent
in that neighborhood. There were something like 671 ads at $1650/month alone, almost all spammers.

Some advertisers were posting the same ad 15-20x/day, and multiple versions, also 15-20x/day.
I would never rent from such a person but it takes a great deal of time and persistenace to find
any apartments other than theirs because of the way they flood CL.

Tenant attitudes are likely to improve with the tightening market. In my experience, prospects act
much nicer when they're worried about not getting an apartment they want or that they can afford.

I think spamming also depends on the area of the city. You can search for village apartments on CL and have moderately useful results (still have to wade through spam), then Williamsburg is much worse, and Financial District is a complete waste of time.

The situation on Craigslist and in the rental market in general is direct evidence of the complete uselessness of rental brokers and the greed and laziness of landlords. Here is what prospective tenants actually want:

1. An accurate ad that provides (a) an address, (b) a floor plan, and (c) plentiful, representative pictures.
2. A phone number or e-mail address to arrange a time to see the apartment.

However, the rental broker knows that providing this information and renting the property quickly would not justify their exorbitant fee. Further, landlords know that subjecting their apartment to an efficient market would depress the price and require them to maintain a higher standard of upkeep. Both are in collusion to make the market as difficult to navigate as possible.

In an alternate universe, a brokerage could employ an small cadre of G.E.D. holders (only slightly above their current hiring standards) to provide the information tenants actually want—and at a much lower cost to landlords and tenants. Landlords could use the savings to improve their properties or would have to lower rents if they refuse to do so. Tenants would happily pay a small broker fee if they felt, unlike now, that they were actually receiving a service for their money and could use the savings to afford a better apartment. Relations between sides would cool and an efficient market would make tolerating attitude on either side unnecessary.

Of course, we know that will never happen, because rental brokers know all too well that information in the hands of prospective tenants is their worst enemy. The last thing they want people to know is how mind-numbingly easy it is to acquire the "market knowledge" they claim as their only skill and asset.

mazzee, as i said earlier, CL is a lead generator.

From Property Grunt: "In the real estate business particularly with rentals a well-known fact is that when someone calls on an ad for an apartment chances are they will most likely not rent it because it does not fit their needs or it has already been taken."

BTW, I have done the floorplan and representative pictures as well as a phone number and email address. If there's a floorplan, the possibility of getting leads from the ad are slim to none regardless of how representative the pictures are.

Scott K
Bond New York

Oh mazzee. This:

"Of course, we know that will never happen, because rental brokers know all too well that information in the hands of prospective tenants is their worst enemy. The last thing they want people to know is how mind-numbingly easy it is to acquire the "market knowledge" they claim as their only skill and asset."

If it were mind-numbingly easy, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Over and over again.

Tina Fallon
Realty Collective, LLC

tina24hour, someone once posted this on Curbed:

"If using a "broker" to rent an apartment saves a person a week of their time for a fee of a few thousand dollars it is well worth it.
For the people barely make a living who think that brokers are a waste of money or "useless"....it is only because their time has little dollar value in comparison to their earning power"

That pretty much sums up my experience with CL.

Scott K
Bond New York

I just wanted to add for someone looking from out of state, craigslist has been beneficial in that I have met a few nice no-fee brokers, and some nice owners of buildings. I'm very thankful to have found streeteasy and nybits and have received some wonderful tips from those sites as well. My problem is I'm a bit type-A, and so I'm looking a bit too far out, as we can not move until June. That being said, we do have a larger dog, that resembles a Beauceron in lean regards to its lean body and markings, but has floppy ears and a cropped tail like a Rottweiler. I've learned that pet-friendly is a very vague term, but completely understand the POV of owners/landlords in regards to renting to someone with pets, as we have been landlords ourselves for nearly 10 yrs. I guess how I'm trying to "sell" our family, human and canine, to prospective brokers a/o owners of buildings is that we will make the ideal 2 yr tenant, due to the fact that wee too are landlords, and understand the value of other people's property/investment. We also have 2 fantastic boys, both 9 yrs of age, one who has been tested GT and has skipped a grade, and one who has been in the USA for just shy of 4.5 yrs and is doing amazing well in his appropriate grade level. Thus, I've had to really research public schools, those that are GT only and those that are mixed as we are far from poor, by NY standards, whipping-out 70k/yr for elementary education is not an option. Anyhow, I like to look at CL,Streeteasy, NYBits, and various websites of real-estate firms. And to all of you brokers out there, good luck and stay honest!
Cheers,
Nell

Oh, I think you missed my point. It's mind-numbingly easy for *rental brokers* to acquire market knowledge because they control a monopoly over accurate property information and guard it zealously. For others, as NYCREAgent so crassly points out, it is still easy to acquire but requires a massive time investment to coax it out of useless middle-man rental brokers.

So you see, you trumpet your service as valuable because it saves time, but the only reason it saves time is because you make a concerted effort to waste everyone's time until they are willing to write a hulking check for your fee.

Everything brokers seem to hate about their clients—they are "garbage," have attitude, call all over town—is a direct product of how brokers operate. It's a sleazy, inefficient market that exists for the sole purpose of making people pay more than they otherwise would. Yes, there are plenty of vapid rich people who don't mind paying their way out of the labyrinth you created, but there are many more that see how unnecessary your services are and treat you accordingly. Accept your lot as a borderline grifter or find another job.

There is talk here of "scammers" polluting and devaluing Craigslist, but that is a straw man. Actual scams—where a mark hands over money for something that doesn't exist—are exceedingly rare. Instead, what any normal person will tell you is polluting and devaluing Craigslist is what rental brokers call here, nakedly, "lead generation." And it doesn't just happen on Craigslist—it is integral to how rental brokers do business. And you wonder why clients have attitude? It boggles the mind.

Yours is not a difficult job. It doesn't require a high level of intelligence or even hard work in the traditional sense—maybe long hours, but not hard work. What it does require is a knack for embellishment, deceit, and fierce protection of a manufactured scarcity of information.

Putting my signature here is a reminder that I must keep it professional.

mazzee, if you don't like agents (I'm an agent, not a broker) then don't use them. You're free to do your own search. There's an old saying: A customer values their money more than their time; a client values their time more than their money.

Scott K
Bond New York

Why was aboutsready's comment removed up top?

NYCREAgent: yes, the obvious fakes are obvious fakes.
Then there are the allcappers.
I wish that the people that are not owners would not post in By Owner.
There is a good deal of phishing , though I don't understand how it works. Something about, when one sends an email to the advertiser, they can get their mitts on your address book.

Yes, there are spammers and phishers. Our company's craigslist account has been hacked into twice. I know the folks at CL are working on the security issues, and I wish them luck. I don't usually post my sales listings on CL, but I know the rental agents rely on it. The clients we get through CL tend to be decent, real people looking for apartments at a discount. I think sales listings get buried in the spam, and that serious buyers will be checking NYTimes, SE, Brownstoner and Trulia, so I focus my advertising there.

BUT! I use Craigslist every day for our side business, which involves renovating properties. For construction materials, it's an amazing resource and a godsend for that purpose alone. Long live craigslist.

Tina Fallon
Realty Collective, LLC

mazzee, brokers don't "control a monopoly over accurate property information", they are merely on top of the ever shifting inventory.

As far as guarding that information, in an open listing market where they are renting other peoples' property over which they hold no exclusive rights to market and rent, well that is understandable.

In a business completely based on information, disclosing it would be financial suicide.

That said, most rental agents aren't fit to work the counter at Starbucks.

CL's value depends on the neighborhood, but in Manhattan (and perhaps hot areas of Bklyn?) there is an immensely high noise to signal ratio. When I tried to use it for the Upper West Side I found about 90% or more of the listings were either duplicates of open listings or just pure lead generating crap.

I am the type to take time and go through listings to try and find some real ones, but I quite simply gave up on CL. It took up hours of effort and for almost no actual results. When I tried it for outer boroughs I found it much more useful.

There are some that do the same thing with SE, but I found that if you click on "has an address" you cut out most of the lead generating listings, albeit at the cost of some legitimate listings as well. (So unclick it once in a while to see what you might be missing.)

I don't post "fantasy ads", so all my ads are real pictures of available apartments. However, as has been said here, almost 10 out of 10 clients will NEVER take the apartment they called you about. Almost 10 out of 10 will NEVER call if there's a floorplan in the ad. So, as an agent, I find it amusing that people like mazzee scream that people want floorplans and representative pictures. I can tell you that you can have pictures of every nook and cranny from every single angle. As soon as you add a floorplan you are essentially asking people not to call you. This, of course, is all referring to rentals.

Picture this scenario. You call me on an ad of an apartment you really like. I say "Great. Come on into the office". You come in and I hand you the application for the apartment. You ask why and I say "This is the apartment you called on. I've already take the liberty of preparing the application for you. Sign here and I'll send it to the landlord". How long do you think you'll be in my office? Now, if you come in and I tell you that apartment in the ad is a 5th floor walk-up and you don't want higher than 3rd floor if it's a walk-up. I can search and find three or four (or more) others to show you. I have lost count of the number of times someone has walked into the office and has decided not to see the apartment they called on.

Scott K
Bond New York

I only want a floor plan. The reason people don't call once a floor plan is included is that they see that the apartment described as "spacious" has a 12 x 14 living room and a 9 x 10 BR, which is also why those who do contact when there is no floor plan don't take it once they have seen it. Hence it probably WAS a lead generator.

AvUWS, your obstinate response is why most of what is said regarding this topic is just a waste of time and energy. Like I said to mazzee, don't use an agent if you don't want to. It's really that simple.

Scott K
Bond New York

AvUWS:

1. you are correct that spamming on CL depends in part on the hotness of a neigborhood
2. Forest Hills and Rego Park qre mostly spam-free because they are not hot neighborhoods
3. by contrast, Clinton Hill in Brooklyn gets hundreds of ads/day, maybe over 1000
4. the overwhelming bulk high decibel apams and in other neighborhoods

I always hated most brokers. It was always the 90% of them that made me appreciate those I did work with whose skills I valued. That included almost anyone I worked with at Fenwik-Keats Goodstein. They didn't always have the product I wanted but they did listen to what i wanted and avoided showing me things I didn't want. That is why I also recommend (and used for my last apartment) Joey TOlino of Citi-Habitats. He definitely cared about his clients even after the deal was closed and according to him about 75% of his business is referrals (which I can believe as I refer him all the time).

I used SE and CL myself. I found the NYT and CL to be almost useless as they were so full of spam. SE is much more useful but it is incomplete relative to the information available to a CH broker in their database about inventory, buildings and LL's. SE is a great improvement but it has not completely solved the assymetry of information.

That said, I think some brokers even "lie" to their own databases knowing it shows up on SE and will claim to other brokers that it was a glitch or mistake.

A CH broker that's cool? Srsly?

Looks like Joey Tolino has moved on from CitiHabitats.

I will check if he actually did leave and if so where he went.

Joey is still at Citi and he can still be reached at his email there. I think there was something about his REBNY dues that he had to be temporarily taken off the website but you can still reach him there and he can still help you.