UWS OHs 11-14-10

nyc10023 - Well done. I'll just add a couple of minor observations. The floors don't bear close scrutiny: I noticed a number of cracks, gaps and patches. Also, the kitchen cabinetry, while reasonably atractive, seemed flimsy for a $3MM apartment. BTW, I counted three front-facing rooms: the living room and two bedrooms. I agree about the ask. #3B is priced off #10B, but it will likely trade much closer to #6B.

Everyone likes large rooms, but does anyone really need a 22' dining room these days? Would it be possible to carve a few 4 or 5 feet off the dining room, widen the gallery, add some closets and maybe relocate the pantry? It's hard to tell if there's something structural there that would prevent that.

seg: One thing I've noticed about 151/161 W86th - an excellent coop with big, beautiful apartments - is that nobody seems to have figured out good ways to reconfigure the secondary lines. So while the answer to your first question is "No, nobody really needs a 22' dining room," I'm not sure there's a better use of the space. In other words, the buyer might not need a 22' dining room, but she may end up with one anyway.

In prewar apts, I appreciate the patina (translation - cracks and imperfections) in the floors, but I like to see crisp clean mouldings.

The most awkward thing about this layout is the "constricted" traffic flow into the kitchen via pantry or "overly" large dining room. The best layout I can come up with for a no-live-in-no-home-office is to create a "kids'" bedroom wing with DR and 3rd BR (move the doors so that the 2 bedrooms open into small hall). Leave the mbr where it is, with the 2nd BR functioning as a library/den/playroom. The weakness of this plan is the distance of the 2nd bedroom wing from the 2nd bath. I would also enlarge the gallery by taking some length from the new 4th BR.

Now that I've had time to look at the 3 comps - 5B, 6B, 10B, this is not priced accordingly. However, the broker may be testing the waters because enough inventory in this category has moved that we may be in a temporary sweet spot at 3.1. Timing is everything.

While I know it can't be marketed this way, the apt may be very well-suited to an observant Jewish family. Third floor is easy to walk to on the Sabbath and the 22 foot dining room would be more likely to be fully utilized (if the family hosted large sabbath or holiday meals). In that case, the 3rd floor could command a premium (as opposed to sixth or 10th)...just a thought on what might drive someone to pay more for this one than 6B.

Priced for muslims! Inverse to Jews, and a little nichey for kawamzzaaaa. WTF?

Fking pos is mispriced for all religions, except for observing ninnies. Go to your Alter ninnies.

285 Riverside Drive #5C
Coop, classic six - 2BR 2BA + maid's bed & bath
Asks $1,650,000; Maint. $2007

The C6 lines at 285 RSD have much to recommend them: large rooms, good flow and a well-defined bedroom wing with separation between the chambers. In terms of bang for the buck, the "C" line has an edge over the river-facing "B" line. "B" fetches higher prices for superior views, but the slant of Riverside Drive pinches the bedrooms and creates awkward corners. "C" is all right angles and big spaces. It's what you expect the primary six in a Candela building to be, although it's technically a secondary line and faces north on the back elevator bank. [That second-class status translates into lower share allocations and maintenance that barely exceeds $1/Ft.2] The lack of a hallway bath is a minus shared by the "B" and "C"lines.

#5C retains the original "C" layout, and is in good condition overall. The updated kitchen is useable as-is, although it's more functional than glamorous. The kitchen is scaled for a diminutive chef, with one low work area that might also be good for kids or a person in a wheelchair (not sure about that - I didn't measure the height). The original baths need freshening rather than renovation. The parquet floors are due for simple refinishing; no significant damage is evident, and I think they will polish up nicely. The walls appear to be in good shape. Central A/C appears feasible; the norm here is to go through the wall.

Because the sixes at 285 have traded steadily, they can be priced pretty easily based on condition and, where applicable, views. #8C went to contract quickly over the summer, asking $1.775MM. IIRC, overall condition was comparable to #5C, although the dining room had been divided, with the remnant opened to the living room. #3B, reconfigured in a manner similar to #8C, recently found a buyer after a month on the market, asking $1.695MM. #12B and #6C were good buys in 2009, at $1.895MM and $1.5375MM respectively. The asking price for #5C seems to be within 5-10% of fair value, and the listing agent has an excellent track record in the building. So if #5C sits much longer, I would take it as evidence of a cooling holiday-season market, rather than a sign that there's anything wrong with the listing.

One final note about historic pricing at 285 RSD: the building used to trade at a discount vs. its peers because the Board adopted an odd convention of buyers paying the 2% flip tax. Although this convention is still honored on listings and show sheets, it seems to be negotiated out of many contracts.

251 West 95th Street #6W
↓ $1,895,000 (30 months on market, reduced from $2.695MM); Maint. $2873
Co-op , 4 beds 2 baths; listed as 2,100 ft² (looks like ~1,900)

The 2005 conversion of this small building at 95th and Broadway started auspiciously. Insiders bought at attractive prices, and several pursued big profits from resales. Unfortunately, the building achieved limited success with outside buyers. MTA's "Big Dig" at 96th caused major disruption, and the market downturn choked off sales altogether. One reseller (#4S) priced her unit reasonably and reaped a tidy gain in early 2008. More ambitious flippers have been disappointed; and no one was more ambitious than the owners of #6W, who came from outside to create in incongruously well-appointed 4BR that has been on the market since May 2008.

#6W has many ingredients of an excellent home. The public space flows well, and is decked with a lavish array of design details and technological frills. Vast expanses of dark wood, muted paint and rich granite achieve the intended effect of Victorian opulence. Central air and advanced A/V systems have been installed without spoiling much detail or sacrificing ceiling height in major rooms. The rear of the apartment features an abundance of bedrooms that are well-equipped though small. The master suite is an attractive cocoon, with a very handsome en-suite bath. Storage - always a weakness in buildings of this vintage - is adequate.

The problem with #6W is that the renovation and pricing are at odds with the underlying reality of the apartment, the building and the location. The showplace kitchen is well-executed, but loses much of its appeal to a view of fire escapes and brick walls. The south-facing public rooms have their views and light blocked by the Lyric. (A window seat attempts to maximize a sharply-angled view of Pomander Walk.) Dark woods and subdued colors can be lovely; they verge on overkill in a space that has very little natural light. Monthlies of $1.50/SF are fine for an elegant, full-service coop, but 251 has few services or amenities, and seems to derive little benefit from the active retail space on Broadway. The recently-reduced price would be compelling at 93rd and West End, or even a block south, at 250 West 94th; but a listing this old usually needs more than a 5% cut to jump-start interest.

Re 285 RSD, there's a substantial difference in view between 8C and 5C wherein 8C completely clears the trees and has great river views (not just seasonal). Also, the condition of 8C was slightly better. BTW, 8C is closing today...

rsm321: Good point re. 285. On one hand, buyers who attach significant value to views might simply gravitate to west-facing lines, or to "view" apartments in other buildings. On the other hand, high-floor "C" units offer a nice balance: excellent space, a beautiful view (albeit an angled one) and relatively low maint./SF.

Where would you peg the premium for #8C over #5C?

As of now, I think it's probably about 7.04 percent better but I'll let you know for sure after we see where 5C goes ;-)

All joking aside, I would guess about 10 percent premium. Remember, it's not just the substantial view difference, the extra three floors make a huge difference in the back of an apartment like this since the exposures are in the airshaft but are also SOUTH -- 8C's a much brighter apartment overall. 5C just doesn't get enough sky in the back to capture any Southetn sun.

Can we quite with the term "seasonal views". You will learn if you live with it that the only season is winter when you only have about 8 hours of light, and most of those you won't be home.

New rule: If it doesn't clear the trees it isn't a view. Anything else is broker-babble.

rsm321: Thanks, and I agree. $1.6MM looks about right for #5C, based on the available data.

I hope #8C was your deal. It seems right up your alley.

West 81st, I wasn't positive you knew it was me -- I don't post that often, and, as has been previously discussed, no one really has any idea who I am out there in the biz :-)

In any case, it was indeed my deal (closed earlier today) and it was indeed a fun one. I also closed 300 RSD recently. At the moment, I'm all riverview Classic Sixed Out :-)

When are we having lunch again?

rsm321: Mazel Tov on 285. Just e-mailed you. Hope the old address is good.

in building description; "Flip Tax is 15% of capital gains"

I thought a home is not an investment? :)

So is a "flip tax" to the co-op deductible from what you show as a capital gain on the property? Are you paying taxes on 100% of your gain (net of the deductible) or on 85%?

207 West 98th Street #4BC
Co-op , 3 beds 2 baths
Asks $1,525,000; Maint. $2023

I'll be indebted to anyone who can explain the history of the Gramont Annex, the small building that sits beside the Blum Brothers behemoth on 98th Street, and shares its coop. Perhaps the Annex started its life as servants' quarters, or as an alternative for residents who preferred a more private setting? As it stands today, one can consider the Annex a way to enjoy the conveniences of a full-service building without the intrusions, or as a way to incur the full cost of a coop without the full benefit of the services or security.

In any case, this listing intrigued me with good space, a sensible layout and pristine condition, in a location that has come a long way from the days when many Upper West Siders considered 96th Street the end of the world. The strengths that jump out from the listing are equally evident in person. Although there's little original detail in this gut-renovated combo, the finishes are sufficiently faithful to the period to afford some charm. Mostly, I like the layout, with a cleverly secluded master suite and a 2BR secondary wing that comfortably sleeps three kids. The entertaining space is nicely appointed and flows pretty well, although the kitchen is a bit small and isolated from the dining room.

The owners have also selected an effective advocate to accentuate the positives. Brian Lewis might be the neighborhood's most indomitably cheerful broker. I remember him arriving straight from the beach for one open house, amid the uncertainty of Summer 2009, lavishly tanned, a few minutes late and oozing confidence; the listing went to contract after three weeks.

In this case, it's a good thing the broker exudes sunshine; otherwise, the apartment would be pretty gloomy. Brick walls block every exposure. There's some reflected southern light in the north-facing DR and LR, but nobody who attaches much value to light or views will find #4BC compelling. Number-crunchers might not like it either at the current price. #6BC went unsold last year, asking $1.5MM, and there's nothing about these apartments that can't be created elsewhere from spare parts, given enough continuous space. The 3BR competition is pretty thin, though, so I'm not writing off #4BC's chances.

Sorry, "continuous" should be "contiguous".

Can't help you with the Gramont Annex, but the Chatsworth Annex at 340 W72nd has always intrigued me.

If I were equipped with a mega-sunny disposition, I would be a broker too. Fine line between smarmy and confident.

BC's layout is awkward While it's nice to have a secluded master suite, IMO, it's awkward to walk through LR & DR to reach the mbr. As to pricing, this is like the stepsister to a 6 in a Gramont. 1.525 is ambitious, but not unachievable - maybe we're in a sweet pocket of the market. I know a few buyers who feel like they've let things get away and want (!) to spend money before year end.

nyc10023: When your kids are older, walking through the DR & LR may seem a small price for privacy. Seriously, you're right - it's far from optimal.

Most annexes are with WWI-era buildings (ones that come to mind are 215 West 98th, 645 WEA, 340 West 72nd, and 380 RSD). The reason for this is because, for the most part, annexes were nothing more than second stages to successful speculative projects. After the subway came in, the developers built their primary projects and, when some of them proved to be huge successes, they quickly barfed out sequels in an effort to try to capitalize on the initial project's success. As time went by, the land was more scarce, less speculation occurred, and fewer annexes were built (though 300 RSD comes to mind as a 1920s example). Most people don't recognize which buildings have annexes because the initial buildings and their various annexes often took different paths through history: 645 WEA (a secure coop), for instance, has an annex around the corner on 92nd street that looks identical from the outside but is a carved-up gutted postwaresque mess of a rental building on the inside (the same can be said of 300 RSD's annex on 102nd st). Sometimes, the annexes were inferior (like 207 West 98th's building to 215 West 98th's building) but, sometimes, the annexes were arguably superior (like the Hendrik Hudson's annex next door at 110th st -- currently operating primarily as a Columbia Dorm).

What's most notable, then, about the Gramont, is that the two buildings still maintain some sort of relationship with one another and operate as one coop even today.

rsm321: Thanks. I had a feeling you'd be the authority.

rsm: now you have me curious as to who you are.

I'm a Gemini who enjoys long walks on the beach…just kidding…couldn't resist.

I'm just a passionate real estate nerd (like a lot of other people on this board) who happens to make my living as a Broker. My background is in academia and so, when I started in the business, I approached it like an academic -- just as academics pick a field of expertise, so too did I. Consequently, I evolved into an uber-specialist, working almost exclusively with UWS prewar buyers. In nine years, I've only done one deal south of 66th street, about a half-dozen saleside deals, and about a half-dozen postwar deals (all the rest have fallen within my aforementioned area of expertise). And you've probably never heard of me or my company -- as I don't do sales, I don't have a need for websites or fancy big brokerage bells and whistles. I'm kinda old-school: I know the buildings, the lines, the layouts, the boards, the builders, blah blah blah...

I think that about covers it. Anything else?

Cool. That sounds interesting, would love to meet you sometime. I also haunt the prewar OHs on the UWS.

RSM321, so given your low profile, how do prospective buyers (or renters?) find you? Just curious.

nyc10023, anytime :-)

gaongaon, I've been working for long enough that I have a pretty consistent stream of referrals. Also, my referrals are very strong referrals. By that I mean, since I work so differently from other brokers, I stand out. So, while most people in Manhattan know a handful of brokers (and may or may not pass along a name or two to a friend when a broker is requested), I'm usually referred with a robust endorsement. Of course, lots of brokers would tell you that. But I happen to know that many brokers still rely on the strength of their company/technology/brand etc when "pitching." I don't have any of that -- I only have an abundance of very specific cocktail-party knowledge (that just so happens to be useful in this one particular arena). When people choose to work with me, it's because they want access to that knowledge.

RSM321, do you have access to shadow rentals (actually bright rentals? Long term only? I'm actually looking at both (rental and purchase) but hoping to find a compelling rental. My email is my name with hotmail.

Updates on 285 RSD:

As rsm321 hinted, #8C closed for full ask, $1.775MM. On the other hand, #5C was just reduced $75K, to $1.575MM. That's within striking distance of the 2009 price for #6C. So, far. this kind of listing has found support in the $800s/SF range. (See http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/530493-coop-800-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york , which recently went to contract after four months and multiple price cuts.) Assuming the pool of frustrated $1.5MM buyers hasn't completely moved through the pipeline, #5C looks like one of the better options - at least for those who can afford a 33% downpayment.

Thanks to each of you. You have produced the rare completely useful and unacrimonious thread. I probably jinxed it now.

10023: A couple of these are in ps 75, which you said on another thread was an acceptable backup. Care to elaborate? Do 84, 145 and 165 fit that criteria?

Malthus: I just want to qualify that statement by saying that it would be an acceptable backup TO ME. I would try to get my kid into the dual-language program at P.S. 75, I've heard good things about it and I've met a few parents from P.S. 75 who are very happy there.

I've not been to P.S. 84, nor have I spoken to any parents there who send their kids to the gened program. I have met a few parents who send their kids to the bilingual (French) program there who are happy. That program is still in its infancy, though.

I've been inside P.S. 145 & P.S. 165. I am impressed with the dedication of the handful of teachers I've met & the principals. You can look for each school's stats on the DOE website yourself. I can't say what I would do if I were zoned for those schools and had no other options available except that I probably wouldn't put myself in that situation.

And Malthus, I spent some time thinking about my last paragraph because since the time I've posted the original comment about P.S. 75, my view has changed.

Because of the whole charter school drama (and the possibility of Success going into 145 & 165), I've met the staff & parent bodies of 145 & 165 over the last 3 months. And while we may be less than eager to attend those schools, I have seen the passion & commitment of these parents & students who love their schools. Why can't a "middle-class" kid attend a school like that? Would it really harm that kid and stop the kid from learning? Sending your child to a school further south might be more comfortable for you as a parent, but I'm not so sure that it is negative for your child.

But I also can't pretend that I wouldn't try to put myself in that situation...

Thanks for the thoughtful answer. I appreciate the subjective nature of any response on this topic but the cheerleading industry reports only get you so far so it is helpful. One rugrat and one on the way and trying to determine the options in an area in which I have never lived.

161 West 86th #3B has been re-listed, with a $105K reduction. As nyc10023 noted, the listing agent is handy with a scalpel or - if necessary - a machete.

West81 - where can you be reached? we are interested in finding a broker to look for a place to buy over the next few months on UWS.

Aaaah,
The residue of intellegent diligent design.

Collecting clients....making copies.
West81ster, West81mister, 81o'rino

making copies

lologan: Just put my screen name in front of @gmail.com. Thanks.

Falcogold1: If you liked Rob Schneider's Richmeister character, you must love the Annoying Orange.

285 RSD #5C entered contract yesterday. Not a surprise at all, considering the alternatives at the $1.5MM price point.

Lologan: Probably better to use my burkhardtgroup.com address: "michael" in front of "@theburkhardtgroup.com".

Quick updates:

Broker sunshine appears to be an inadequate proxy for the real thing. 207W98 #4BC was just reduced for the second time, to $1.395MM.

285RSD #5C is in contract. No change at 161W86 or 251W95.

More updates:
251 W95th #6W sold for $1.888M.
207 West 98th Street #4BC sold for $1.38MM. (SE shows the sale under 215W98.)
285 Riverside Drive #5C sold for $1.565MM.
161 West 86th #3B has been on and off the market, and is currently asking $2.845MM.