Thoughts on Washington Heights

Disclaimer, This neighborhood is not my specialty as a real estate agent... i'm only speculating based on rents I see in my database and knowledge of the area.

That apartment rents for about $1300 - $1500 in Washington Heights. I don't know what kind of appreciation is on the horizon... considering an apartment in Morningside heights rents for about the same as Park Slope, there are three other neighborhoods that are apt to be gentrified first because they are closer to midtown.
Couple that with the huge amount of prewar housing stock that has been renovated and converted to market rate apartments by the big landlords, I don't know if I really see any quick kind of appreciation for Washington Heights. It's always possible... a pocket of hip like Cortelyou in Ditmas Park or Van Brunt in Red Hook so time could prove me wrong.

The long term bet for the last 5 years has been buying buildings in Washington Heights. Great housing stock, great price per square foot per apartment and simple conversion to market rate.

To me Hamilton Heights seems like a more sound investment... as close to possible to Riverside. The city is bound to make improvements on the Greenaway in the 130s and as landlords can already get $1800 for a 1 bedroom if it is sufficiently renovated with a nice view.
Columbia University is planning an expansion while City University already exists...there is a steady supply of discretionary spending independent of employment rate via the students living there and they are perfect for driving up rents/sale prices. They all move in at once which creates significant competition and lowers the vacancy rate, are at maximum 4 year tenants which means you have a regular turnover and can reset the apartment's price to the market rate on an annual basis and are huge cultural consumers which leaves lots of opportunities for those 'in' boutiques and restaurants to open.

for about $600 more a month, I'll sell you a 2-BR -- which you might want to consider because in the short-term you could get a roommate to help pay for it and in the longer term you probably have more potential tenants.

The bedrooms are of relatively equal size, so it's not a bad share. Bennett Avenue is a pretty street, near the shopping stretches but without the up-the-hill prices.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/494739-coop-245-bennett-avenue-hudson-heights-new-york

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Nice pricing Ali

Sold for 240k in September 2010 and now you are asking 360k?

Also called 675 SF in the previous sale but now upped to 900 SF in your listing.

Did the new owners add half of an adjoining apartment?

junkie, fort tyron gardens includes a number of different addressed. there are often units with sales recorded in the wrong buildings, as i believe is the case here.

My appologies if that is the case.

For $365k you can get a studio in Manhattan.

Junkie, don't get me wrong, I'm always up for getting my horns mixed up with Ali for a friendly argument, but the floorplans pretty clearly show that they are not the same apartment.

Seaver,
I recently bought a condo very similar to the one you are looking at. It's a 725 sqft 1 bedroom condo at 187th and Cabrini Blvd.
I'm not sure how familiar you are with 'Hudson Heights', aka the nice part of Washington Heights, but it is a rapidly changing neighborhood(for the better). I moved here in 2006, when the neighborhood had already begun its change. We rented at first, and finally bought this last summer. Only a few years before we got here, it was apparently quite different. In the last year alone we got our first thai restaurant, wine bars, and opening this month is a new italian place. Next month, a huge irish pub will be opening at 181 and cabrini.
Considering the A express train gets you to midtown in about 20 minutes, I'm surprised this area is not already an "in location".
I have friends in the 140's and 150's, and I am always shocked that they have virtually no good supermarkets, restaurants, bars, etc. So, Hudson Heights is already on its way to being the next Park Slope, as far as upper Manhattan goes. The number of strollers rolling up and down Cabrini Blvd can also attest to that.
One thing to be aware of is the limited rental rules of co-ops. Many in this hood limit renting to one-year leases with board approval.
I looked for four years here before buying my place, and got some info on some of the local co-op boards, so feel free to ask any questions.

Hello Seaver,

ynotie has provided some good thoughts - though I disagree about his perception of the 140s-150s for a reason that will become obvious. :) We moved to 157th/Broadway when we had our second child and have actually enjoyed it quite a bit. Our initial fears about leaving our beloved downtown have mostly been replaced with enjoying the space and low mortgage. (though we do miss the restaurants) I agree our area needs A LOT more services before people come flocking up. We looked all over and personally, I didn't want to go much higher than where we are now. However, I do see the area as a good investment and a reasonable area to live in - esp if one has a family. Good luck!

Ynotie, Eliz: Thanks for all the great thoughts. Ali, I would've liked to have gotten a 2 bedroom (which seems like a better investment, given the "stroller influx") but was constrained by my ability to put down 20$ (I don't want to pay PMI).

I'm going to move forward (it's 24 Bennett)- so hopefully look forward to learning more about the neighborhood from these discussion boards.

I just moved from 160th Street, the area is rough and has very little in the way of anything but basic services. My car would have it's window smashed at least 4 times a year and my wife definitely did not feel safe coming home at night. The subway at 163rd street is a disgusting mess, 168th not much better. I would never raise kids in this area, there are no good school options. Yes when I lived there (just 3 months ago, was there for 2 years) I would try and convince myself how great it was, short ride on A etc...my wife however grew to despise it, much harassment on the street and just no where to go. It helped that we had a car, quick trips UWS or out of the City via the GWB. I would agree that the 180's West of Broadway are much better and going up to Inwood is even better than that, but at this point I think there are better options. One mediocre Thai restaurant is not really anything to get excited about. As far as buying, I would never do it up there, just look at the number of transactions taking place...not many. Look at time on market for many of the listings, we paid $1500 a month for a 2 bedroom, prewar,elevator with a PT DM (more like guard.)

That said the pro's are there are many wonderful, friendly people in the neighborhood. Our building was perhaps one of the most social I lived in in NYC, with lots of events like bake sales and July 4th BBQ's. If not for that, I would have not lasted the 2nd year.

But the bottom line is this is an impoverished, crime ridden neighborhood, ask the local police pct. about crime or look on the city data web site. I cycle, so easy access to the GWB was cool as well for my rides up the Palisades. Just go into any purchase move with both eyes open, imho there are better options available.

Ali, can you explain the reasoning behind the 11K price increase since October? if it is such a "hot" property, i'd expect it would have been gone by now.

KeithB, thanks for the reasonable explanation of the neighborhood. once people open their eyes, there's just nothing good about that location. as far as the people with strollers, they'll be gone before the kids need to attend schools as paying for private is so expensive that you will be able to afford a simlar apartment in a much better school zone.

I think there's a huge difference between Wash Heights and Park Slope. I can't imagine them ever being on par with each other.

Keith, if these thing happened to you I'm sorry. They sound very unusual. Are you very far east? I'm about 5'2, fairly small, and walk around with a toddler and an infant and have never felt unsafe even when walking our dog late at night. We're only 3 blocks apart so not sure how we could be having such vastly different experiences. Having your window smashed 4 times sounds like NYC circa 1980 or when crack epidemic was in full swing.

As far as school option, that's a tough one. Because our mortgage is low we can do private school, something not possible if we stayed downtown. We have visited the public schools and do find them overcrowded but we hear they're just as bad in the UWS.

I don't follow real estate sales that much anymore because we've purchased and are staying put but if my building is any indication prices are holding. We bought at $361 sq ft (4 years ago) and redid it entirely. The last transaction in the building was sold at ~500 sq ft. The one prior to that was higher but the place had a full reno.

I'm sorry the experience has been so bad for you. I think there is community night one Wed a month at the police station where you can voice complaints.

eliz - so you feel that paying $60K a year for 2 kids in private school is worth living in a marginal neighborhood? that's 5K of non-tax deductable expenses per month. wouldn't you be able to rent a similar apartment to yours with the $5K + whatever you are currently paying for housing - tax benefit.

ab_11218, wow, you sound like you have an agenda against the area. I admit I am pro the area since we all naturally cheer on where we live but I'm not delusional about its bad points. I totally agree with broadwayron that the area would have to entirely transform to be Park Slope and really can't because the architecture is so different and a variety of other reasons. But, you're being a bit juvenile to say there is nothing good about the area. Maybe you're still very young but when you have a family and want to stay in the city for work/commute/social reasons you cannot believe how much it matters to have a place where your kids can grow and move and also afford to socialize, take trips, etc. And pay for school when the time comes. Our quality of life has gone up considerably since moving from downtown. We LOVED downtown but had one child in the living room and an infant in a tiny second bedroom--more of a den and a significant mortgage. Again, maybe this is something you'll understand when the reality of having a family in the city hits. Unless you're very well off and can afford a lot of space downtown.

As has been hinted at by other posters, it really depends where in WH you are exactly. Presbyterian Hospital and Columbia's Medical Center are up there, so it's an area I frequented daily for a couple years there. Anywhere by the hospital and Broadway is loud - I think it's been documented as one of the loudest neighborhoods in the city actually. But there are some nice pockets around Riverside Dr in the 150s (near the cemetery) and closer to Inwood in the 180s. If you are investing, you do have a built-in renter population with all the students up there, but recognize that many of them are probably (and temporarily) unwealthy.

Keith, I'm sorry that you had that experience too. However, I'd like to point out that the difference between 160th St. and 181st St. is pretty significant. (In fact, on 181st Street there are grades of nice, which is why I made the "Uphill/Downhill" distinction.)

ab, we had a deal on Bennett Ave. that required the buyer to sell his current property, which he was unable to do. we raised the price in accord with our perception of the current market, which is that this is still the best two-bedroom line in this co-op, and a lot of the competing apartments in the submarket are condos which are markedly smaller.

Are we right? only time will tell. I can't see the future. However, people who have been following me on these boards for awhile know that when I list something for sale, I generally sell it.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

ab_11218, I'm not here to convince anyone that my real estate choice is the absolute best and only choice. I enjoy discussions about the area and when people ask I offer my thoughts. As to your question, again, you're doing math and taking all the intangibles out of the equation. Yes, we will pay whatever we need to pay for the kids to get a good education. As far as renting an apartment. No. We love our home. We renovated it 100% to our taste and it also allows us the option to have another child or even, god forbid, taking in an elderly parent if that's what life throws at us. It feel less restrictive than living in 800 sq ft just so we can be perceived as still cool. By the time we're in your late thirties you can let that go. :) Yes, I DO miss the restaurants. I say it in every thread. That part needs a lot of work.

Again, I don't see the area as marginal as you clearly do. I've never had a safety issue. Maybe because the subway is at the end of my block and across Broadway there are some amazing buildings so there is always foot traffic/activity.

eliz:I have been in NYC since 1981 and also raised two children there, so have some experience with the city. We were on Edgecombe ave which in itself is actually quite beautiful, as is Riverside up there. I understand where you are coming from, you bought, committed and want to be proud of your home/neighborhood. But I think you are viewing the area through rose colored glasses.

For me it was when we moved out of the area that I really realized what a poor quality of life we had. Sure it was wonderful in our large(cheap), bright, wonderfully furnished two bedroom....but who wants to stay in all the time? But to each his own and I'm glad you enjoy living in the nabe.

As far buying, that's another story. Be very discerning and have at least a 10+ year time horizon.

For me an issue would be this: is it a fun enough area that friends who live in manhattan central areas would want to come have dinner every now and then?...the impression give here is no. People tend to like to go out to areas of Brooklyn, on the other hand. just my 1/2 cent.....

Keith,
Sorry to hear you had a bad experience at 160th, but I think that brings up the point being made by a few of the people. Washington Heights is HUGE, from 155th to 190th, and from the Hudson river to the Harlem river. The 'Hudson Heights' section is a world apart from the remaining areas. To suggest that Inwood is "even better" shows me that you may not really know Hudson Heights very well. Inwood is much more similar to the 160's and 170's of the heights than it is like the 180's!
I know I am clearly biased because I love my nabe, but the 180's west of Broadway is FAR from impoverished.

As noted in my blurb, I agree regarding 180's West of Broadway, road my bike through there for years on my way to the GWB to points North. As far as Inwood, the tip of Manhattan, Isham park and the buildings along Park Terrace are nothing like the 150's,60's or 70's of Washington Heights.Also Inwood Park is quite nice and on any given weekend you will see quite a number of parents and others in beautiful Isham Park. A friend lives in one of the Park Terrace buildings, so I do know the area.

Just for some clarity I also had some very good experiences there as pointed out. Regarding the car windows being smashed, just walk up and down Edgecombe from 155th to 165th and you will be stepping in broken glass, I actually learned where NOT to park to limit this.

I do understand the nuances of each particular area (:

It is interesting to try and understand why some neighborhoods gentrify/evolve and others don't,there certainly is plenty of historic and beautiful architecture in the Heights. Some great limestone houses along 163rd street from Amsterdam to Edgecombe, as well as many of the buildings along Riverside Drive. You also have the historic Jumel Mansion on 160th, a museum that once served as Washingtons Headquarters during the revolutionary war. Sylvan Terrace also has some wonderful wood frame homes on a pretty cobble stoned cul-de-sac.

One of my best friends grew up there and he laughed when I moved in, his family struggled to get out of the neighborhood! We still all go up to Malecon and MamaJuana on Dyckman, great food and always a fun time.

eliz - i'm guessing you've missed the point. you can get the same amount of space for less then the cost of schooling and housing in a much better part of UWS. taking kids on the train daily, as i see so often, to get them out of the 'hood, is a definite "quality of life" issue. who cares if your walls are the right color, if your kid can't play outside? you are looking at what is good for you and having your children take the brunt of the pain.

i had a great/huge coop in a very nice area, but the zoned school wasn't good. it was fantastic compared to the ones in your area. i sold, picked up my wife and kids and moved into a rental where i'm paying the same as before, but my kids are getting great education. we walk, yes walk, 3 blocks to get to the school and save $60K per yr on education. do i miss my old coop, yes. did i compromise to give my kids the best and not stress them every morning by dragging them on the train to a school where they would be considered poor, yes.

i guess people have different priorities, but saying that you love your place even when you see it does not make sense in convenience or $$$ is just dilusional.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/rentals/nyc/rental_type:frbo,brokernofee,brokerfee%7Cprice:-7000%7Carea:136,137%7Cbeds%3E=3%7Cbaths%3E=2

32 apartments in better locations where you are and costing less then you'll be paying in a few yrs. enjoy your kitchen.

ab - different strokes for different folks.

Some would rather live very comfortable inside their apt and schlep kids to private school.
Others would rather be less than very comfortable and NOT schlep.

If this guy would drop his price by about 45% I might be tempted to move up there...

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/567459-house-16-chittenden-avenue-inwood-new-york

One point that has not been discussed adequately in this thread is the east/west divide in lower Washington Heights. There is a marked difference between West of Broadway and East of Broadway in this section. 160th and Edgecombe vs. 157th and Riverside are different enough to make a distinction.

Meh, bramstar. There are some nicer alternatives in Inwood. Single-family/2-fam buildings.

Bramstar: http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/557424-townhouse-65-payson-avenue-inwood-new-york

Back to the OP's original question about Washington Heights in the 180s:

Price appreciation in the next five years? I don't have a crystal ball, but I've been watching the market closely for the last five years and I don't expect prices to rise much. I only rent in Hudson Heights, so I guess my bias is for prices to fall, but honestly crime appears to be on the rise and as prices fall everywhere, people move downtown. I troll Craig's frequently for bargains and I can't tell you how many local apartment sales mention moving downtown to smaller spaces.

Yes, Castle Village is called Kid Village up here and I think there will always be a small and fervent group of neighborhood boosters, but I don't see the neighborhood becoming Park Slope. We have a beautiful park and creative people, but we don't have the sort of spaces need to support a Park Slope-type neighborhood.

Further on the OP's question at the top of this thread:

I'm familiar with this specific area of the nabe; I grew up on Broadway in the upper 170's and have lived at the far western end of 181st Street for the past 25 years.

My advise to you: don't buy here.

This area has been "in transition" for about 30 years now, and it's no closer to gentrification now than it was back in the 1980s. For some, that's a good thing. But, before you decide to sink your money into this community, there's some things you should know.

First, about the subway station that you will be frequenting: the booth at the 181st Street end of the station is now unmanned. There are at least two homeless people who are now living there. There's a group of men in their 20s who hang out every night, into the early morning, at the top of the stairs leading down into the station, outside the 24-hour store on the corner of Fort Washington Ave. If you're a reasonably young and attractive female, you will be harassed. Count on it. (If my girlfriend is coming home later than 9pm, she always takes a cab -- and she grew up in this neighborhood, as well.)

Second, crime: while there's not a lot of violent street crime, there are some burglaries, and car break-ins are a routine occurrence. I see pools of shattered safety glass at the curbs along western 181st St. and Cabrini Blvd. three or four times per week. If you own a car, factor in the cost of a garage space. Also, there was a murder back in October in an apartment at 736 W. 181st St., between Ft. Washington and Broadway. This happened in the middle of the afternoon: http://www.dnainfo.com/20101012/washington-heights-inwood/washington-heights-double-stabbing-leaves-one-dead

Third, shopping: you have three choices for grocery shopping: 1) patronize the Associated Supermarket, where the produce is on the verge of spoiling and the meats are sketchy; 2) do your shopping at Frank's Market or Jin's, where you will pay top dollar; or 3) do your shopping via Fresh Direct or down at the Fairway in West Harlem. There are NO mid-price sources of groceries in this area. It's either throw your money away on food of questionable quality, or pay through the nose for food that won't spoil in a day or two.

Fourth, the schools: they are a joke. The local middle school, IS 187 on Cabrini Blvd., is pretty good by NYC public school standards, but that's really not saying much.

Fifth, noise: this is the quietest part of Washington Heights, which only makes it more irritating when someone decides that this quiet cannot stand and decides to park their mobile boombox outside your window at 130am. Count on this happening at least once a week.

Lastly, something nobody in this thread has touched on, and I really feel that it should be brought up: over the years, I've recommended to several white friends that they move up here: rents are cheaper than other parts of Manhattan, there's lots of parkland, you could easily luck out and get an apartment with a Hudson River view, yadda yadda yadda. I no longer make such recommendations. Every single one of the friends who moved up here left within three years, and all for the same reason: there's a racial tension in the neighborhood that is palpable. If you are white, you will feel it whenever you leave the enclave of Hudson Heights. If you complain about anything -- and I mean ANYTHING: loud neighbors, rude treatment at the hands of a cashier, whatever -- be prepared to be called a racist, or worse. You will be viewed as in interloper in "their" neighborhood, and you will be treated as such.

And, before anyone here leaps to conclusions, let me say that I am the son of Dominican immigrants. I'm intimately familiar with the attitude that is the source of this racial chip-on-the-shoulder. Even I'm tired of dealing with it. And that's why we're throwing in the towel. I purchased an apartment here back in the late 80's, and sold it just before the market tanked. Since then, I've been renting, waiting to see which way the neighborhood goes.

I don't need to wait anymore, so we're moving to (gasp!) Jersey. This area of upper Manhattan has been in stasis for decades now, and there are signs that it's slowly getting worse. There is no way that I would again buy a place to live here. My advise to you is to look farther afield: Riverdale, for example, or across the Hudson River. You'll almost certainly be happier.

Good luck.

Further on the OP's question at the top of this thread:

I'm familiar with this specific area of the nabe; I grew up on Broadway in the upper 170's and have lived at the far western end of 181st Street for the past 25 years.

My advise to you: don't buy here.

This area has been "in transition" for about 30 years now, and it's no closer to gentrification now than it was back in the 1980s. For some, that's a good thing. But, before you decide to sink your money into this community, there's some things you should know.

First, about the subway station that you will be frequenting: the booth at the 181st Street end of the station is now unmanned. There are at least two homeless people who are now living there. There's a group of men in their 20s who hang out every night, into the early morning, at the top of the stairs leading down into the station, outside the 24-hour store on the corner of Fort Washington Ave. If you're a reasonably young and attractive female, you will be harassed. Count on it. (If my girlfriend is coming home later than 9pm, she always takes a cab -- and she grew up in this neighborhood, as well.)

Second, crime: while there's not a lot of violent street crime, there are some burglaries, and car break-ins are a routine occurrence. I see pools of shattered safety glass at the curbs along western 181st St. and Cabrini Blvd. three or four times per week. If you own a car, factor in the cost of a garage space. Also, there was a murder back in October in an apartment at 736 W. 181st St., between Ft. Washington and Broadway. This happened in the middle of the afternoon: http://www.dnainfo.com/20101012/washington-heights-inwood/washington-heights-double-stabbing-leaves-one-dead

Third, shopping: you have three choices for grocery shopping: 1) patronize the Associated Supermarket, where the produce is on the verge of spoiling and the meats are sketchy; 2) do your shopping at Frank's Market or Jin's, where you will pay top dollar; or 3) do your shopping via Fresh Direct or down at the Fairway in West Harlem. There are NO mid-price sources of groceries in this area. It's either throw your money away on food of questionable quality, or pay through the nose for food that won't spoil in a day or two.

Fourth, the schools: they are a joke. The local middle school, IS 187 on Cabrini Blvd., is pretty good by NYC public school standards, but that's really not saying much.

Fifth, noise: this is the quietest part of Washington Heights, which only makes it more irritating when someone decides that this quiet cannot stand and decides to park their mobile boombox outside your window at 130am. Count on this happening at least once a week.

Lastly, something nobody in this thread has touched on, and I really feel that it should be brought up: over the years, I've recommended to several white friends that they move up here: rents are cheaper than other parts of Manhattan, there's lots of parkland, you could easily luck out and get an apartment with a Hudson River view, yadda yadda yadda. I no longer make such recommendations. Every single one of the friends who moved up here left within three years, and all for the same reason: there's a racial tension in the neighborhood that is palpable. If you are white, you will feel it whenever you leave the enclave of Hudson Heights. If you complain about anything -- and I mean ANYTHING: loud neighbors, rude treatment at the hands of a cashier, whatever -- be prepared to be called a racist, or worse. You will be viewed as in interloper in "their" neighborhood, and you will be treated as such.

And, before anyone here leaps to conclusions, let me say that I am the son of Dominican immigrants. I'm intimately familiar with the attitude that is the source of this racial chip-on-the-shoulder. Even I'm tired of dealing with it. And that's why we're throwing in the towel. I purchased an apartment here back in the late 80's, and sold it just before the market tanked. Since then, I've been renting, waiting to see which way the neighborhood goes.

I don't need to wait anymore, so we're moving to (gasp!) Jersey. This area of upper Manhattan has been in stasis for decades now, and there are signs that it's slowly getting worse. There is no way that I would again buy a place to live here. My advise to you is to look farther afield: Riverdale, for example, or across the Hudson River. You'll almost certainly be happier.

Good luck.

This is utterly ridiculous. Do not compare anything west of Broadway between 181st and 193rd streets with the rest of Washington Heights. I have lived in Hudson Heights for ten years, and it has totally transitioned into a perfectly safe place. It's worlds away from Inwood, Washington Heights and Harlem. Rule of thumb: Buy everything west of Broadway. Racial tensions? My foot! There are no racial tensions in a pocked of Manhattan that is so nauseatingly white. Sure, that's a negative. So, yes, have a separate forum for the real HUDSON HEIGHTS and not WAHI as a whole, and people will tell you how amazing it is. This pocket is ALREADY THERE. Check for yourselves, people. Spend an entire day here -- start with the Cloisters, walk the park, check out the stroller population, the number of gays and lesbians, the leashed population. Walk to 187th Street, take in river vistas, admire the architecture, smile with every person you pass by (who will likely be white, and that's unfortunate), absorb Castle Village, notice the variety in dining on 181st street, check out the wine stores. I laugh secretly at anyone who says Hudson Heights is up-and-coming. It's already there, people. Check it out for yourself. It's interesting that most of the haters are people who don't even live in Hudson Heights but on the periphery. East of Broadway sadly isn't Hudson Heights, folks, and neither is Inwood. Take the express "A" to 190th and walk down Fort Washington or Bennett to 181st, and you will know what I am talking about.

ab_11218 - you're oddly jumped up over this topic. And making insane assumptions along the way. Firstly, have you ever, in any part of the city, seen a child playing outside, alone? Ever? Really? It's NYC. When we lived in the Village (and I think we all agree that's a "safe" area) I don't think I ever once saw children playing alone outside. Play in the city happens in a very structured way - play dates, etc., so no, my children do not "suffer" because of a decision to live on 157th st. As far as my school decisions, most families agonize over where to send their kids to school. The school we've selected has families who "schlep" their kids to the same school from various parts of the city. Again, maybe some of you don't have children yet but if you do and send them to private school, you too will likely schlep. So, your obnoxious assumptions about the quality of life of my children are way off. I am quite sure they prefer their individual, full sized bedrooms to the 10x10 converted, bunk-bed room they would be crammed in had we stayed downtown. They probably also like that we're not slaves to our mortgage and can actually take them places and have a place upstate where they can "play outside"...you know, the very thing kids don't really do anymore. :)

chucklehead, wow, great analysis on some part of the area. But I have got to completely disagree on your last point. We're white and have not had any racial tension. There is a running joke in our building that the latino/black owners call the "white census" otherwise known as property values going up. Seriously, I don't think that is as much of an issue as you're making it out to be. Also, noise isn't as bad where we are but that could be something that varies. I'll be curious how your experience in Jersey stacks up. We looked there, too. But between buying cars, car insurance, taxes,time commuting time/cost to/from city, the schools can be very spotty (and when they're not, holy shit the taxes will scare you), and add in the general cost of the upkeep of a home and it was cheaper to stay in the city.

Other than that I agree, Associated sucks. We make a weekly trek to Whole Foods or Fairway.

Yeah, the taxes in Jersey are killer. But we're moving to an excellent school district, and my commute, while more expensive, won't be too much longer (my job is equidistant from both penn station and the port authority bus terminal -- i'm figuring about 50 minutes door-to-door).

As I said, I feel that I've waited plenty long enough for this neighborhood to fulfill its obvious potential. I understand that there are pockets of calm in the area -- your area at 157th and riverside, for example, or the upper reaches of forth washington ave. and cabrini blvd. -- but the fact remains that you're still surrounded by a blighted area. Down in your neck of the woods, for example, the difference between riverside drive and broadway can be like traveling from residential part of Paris to downtown Mogadishu in the space of two city blocks.

The kind of dichotomy can be exhilirating, depending on your age, I guess, and what stage in life you're at. But we're done. We're tired of the type of behavior that one is expected to tolerate just to live in Manhattan. It's simply not worth it to us anymore. And I would strongly advise anyone against buying property around here. I remember what happened in NYC during the last big recession, during the Dinkins administration; I have a feeling it's going to be worse this time around, and the effects haven't even really started being felt yet.

First, we've lived up here (Hudson Heights) since the mid- 80s and the statement that it has not changed (gentrified) since then is absurd. Back then, there was one coffee shop on 187 St. that closed after lunch-- no other restaurants in the immediate area. The night that Kismat, the local Indian restaurant, opened, there was a line that snaked around the corner, people were so excited. Since then, more restaurants have opened, with more to come. True, commercial development is limited because the area is mostly residential and the commercial strip is small. But it has changed a great deal since the 80s, and the population has changed a lot-- lots and lots of young couples with babies, everyone mentioned by Manhattanloving above. The parks and playgrounds up here are wonderful, and there is a popular dog run, too.

Second, nobody mentions one of the best things about the neighborhood: the "village" feel and friendliness. I lived in a small brownstone near Central Park West for 9 years and only knew one of my neighbors in all that time. People kept to themselves, seemingly threatened by any attempt at neighborliness. They wanted their privacy and would barely say hello.

Here, I am in a building-based book group and there is tremendous friendliness and a community feel in my building. Not just my building-- the entire neighborhood. I rarely leave my apartment without bumping into three or four or more friends or acquaintances-- in the stores, on the street, on the A train, in gorgeous Ft. Tryon Park.

I know the local merchants and those longstanding relationships are great. I am such a good customer at the local fruit market that if I don't have my shopping cart, the owner sends me home in a cab he pays for (car service cars are usually sitting on that block just waiting--they're great.) I was once waiting for a bus ten blocks away, and the same merchant, passing by in his car, stopped and gave me a lift home. He always knocks five bucks off my total, as well, and delivers whenever I need him to. If I need something he doesn't stock and I am placing a phone order--he will go across the street and get it for me! Seriously, it's just great.

The last time there was a citywide blackout, I remember the folks at Frank's market setting up special arrangements to deliver water and other necessities to people who needed them, even though the market's electricity was out and their cash registers didn't work. They went above and beyond.

There is a wonderful community feel to the neighborhood--quite different from what I experienced on the Upper West Side. I moved up here because my then boyfriend lived here and had a bigger apartment than mine. I had lived on the UWS for 10 years and was horrified at the notion of leaving it, but I immediately liked it up here much better, much to my surprise. Quieter, less gritty, gorgeous views, beautiful park right outside our door (okay, I did have Central Park before...but still).

We stayed here after we married because we could get a beautiful, large prewar with park views at a price we could afford. Our daughter grew up here and adores it--she wants to stay in the city and raise her future kids here, too. She has friends in the suburbs and is so glad she grew up here and went to school in NYC public schools. She loved her schools and her friends. Yes, we traveled out of the neighborhood for school, but schools have gotten better up here since then, plus traveling elsewhere is quite doable if that's what you want. At high school level, many kids from every neighborhood travel anyway-to the specialized or "magnet" schools.

She benefited greatly from the demographic mix in her public schools--great, smart kids from all ethnic groups and income levels, with much less snobbiness/meanness than I believe you find in either private schools or "good districts" in the suburbs. From the stories I have heard, anyway. I know two parents who had to move their kids from their "good" suburban schools because of horrible bullying issues--they had to move them to private schools. I have never heard of this sort of thing in the public schools my daughter attended. There simply is not the pervasive, socially competitive atmosphere among parents and students that you find in the wealthier suburbs, but rather a spirit of empathy and cooperation and inclusion. It wasn't perfect, of course, but I truly believe it was a better atmosphere than what I hear about in wealthier schools. There were economically disadvantaged kids (one of my daughter's friends had to hold nearly a full-time job all through high school) and also kids from affluent families-- I think it helps the social atmosphere a great deal. And PS, she got a great education and is now in college on a full-ride merit scholarship.

This is a digression, but relevant to discussion of living up here instead of say, New Jersey or Westchester. No, it is not necessary to leave the neighborhood the minute your kids are school age. This is a great place to grow up, as my daughter and her neighborhood friends will attest. As for crime, yes cars on the street near the park are at risk because there is nobody there at night. But the only place I have ever been mugged was on the Upper West Side, in the lobby of my lovely brownstone near Central Park West. Go figure. Anyway, we have loved living in this neighborhood as do all our neighborhood friends. Most have been here for decades and don't want to leave.

I just read this thread with my wife and we wanted to add our perspective. We moved to 187 and Cabrini (the middle of Hudson Heights) in June. The reasons we left 111 and FDB in Harlem were: 1) our 2bd apartment was too small for the 2nd kid coming and we could afford a 3bd in Hudson Heights; 2) PS 187 has a very good reputation K-6 (less so 7-8) and Harlem like almost all of NYC has a very difficult school situation; 3) racial tensions were endemic in Harlem and here they are muted at most. Basically, we were able to rent out our condo as a share and rent this one, with river views, at no additional economic cost (tax effects, etc).

We think that manhattan loving and ljr give accurate descriptions of the reality here in Hudson Heights. I'm sure that chucklehead is also right, but 181 is not the same. It is remarkable how much the feel changes once one hits the borders of Hudson Heights at 181 or at Bdwy.

This neighborhood is very quiet and friendly, especially for NYC.

Last point: our old neighborhood is very much "up and coming". Even in the 2 years we lived there it gentrified noticeably. Numerous condos continue to open and sell. From a strictly investment standpoint, I believe that neighborhood has more potential to gain value. It is starting from a lower base, is much closer to Midtown, borders Central Park and Morningside Park, and has excellent transportation.

Washington Heights is a huge neighborhood and as a general rule, it's much nicer west of Broadway. The 181-190's are very nice as well as much of the Riverside Drive area in the 155-160's. Amenities are better in the Hudson Heights area, though still lacking and in most other areas are generally pretty bad. Things are changing at a pretty noticeable rate in most areas though. Despite the recession, people with money are moving up.

I have a condo on 158th and Riverside. Probably would have selected something in the 180's but at that time there weren't many condos, only co-ops. I'm happy with the location though.

Despite the bad things many say about the area - I think it's a great area for the price and have really enjoyed living here. Restaurants are lacking, but there are actually tons of great latin places and we're starting to see more diverse cuisine pop up as well. Transportation is pretty good with trains and busses and I find it great to be so close to the GW (I work a lot in NJ and out of town - would be a nightmare from Brooklyn compared to my 5 minute trip across the GW). Also, very safe and again if you stay west of Broadway it's quiet.

About 1 week in the move, and I'm starting to understand the various points of view on this board. I think that ultimately most people agree on the "facts", we just all value different characteristics of a neighborhood differently.
1) The commute: I'm at 181st and Bennett; work in mid-town east. This morning everything went wrong (poor choices of transfer stations on my part AND slow trains). It took me 50 minutes door to door. Not great, but considering that what really matters is the incremental time and even when I lived in midtown west my commute entailed a 20 minute walk, an extra 20-25 minutes a day (normal commuting times) isn't so bad (in my opinion). Did lot of shopping this weekend, and never once had to wait more than 10 minutes for the A train. That said, it wasn't 2 a.m, either.
2) Restaurants: It's not HK or the WV, but 181st and 187th seem to have plenty of cool, upscale places to eat (enough for a legitimate "where do you want to go for dinner" conversation)
3) Grocery stores: lacking (at least compared to midtown west), but the neighborhood markets have good fruit and vegetables at competitive prices. Figure on a monstrous Trader Joe's trip every month or two for staples (to make the $17 delivery charge worth it)- though that's probably not necessary.
4) Safety: in my mind crowded=safe, and the area appears to be so. I was slightly concerned about my 5:30 am runs, but there a lot of joggers and I've never felt as if I was alone. Same with my girlfriend. I'm not sure about those references to racial tension. From what I've seen Hudson Heights (west of Broadway) is mostly yuppies couple or hipsters who can't afford the UWS, and orthodox Jews. Not exactly a volatile mix.

Hello everyone, I have a few questions about renting an apartment in Washington heights....

1) how much does a studio or 1 bedroom usually go for on ft Washington avenue from 177th st. going up?

2) do most of the landlords in that area have the 40 x plus the rent rule?

3) if im interested in moving in a particular building, would I be able to contact the super of that building

There's so much more I would like to know because I'm looking to rent an apartment in that area.

Thanks everyone!