The 505

I looked at this building a while back. There were just too many drawbacks. Tee maintenance was high (and probably going higher, there aren't enough units to support a good level of staffing), the sales guy was a total a-hole, the block was kind of yucky, and there's a freakin' TRAIN right below it. I couldn't believe it. I peered through the fence and the train track is maybe 10 feet below the surface. I know there's a lot of trains in NY, but there's no way you're not going to feel that train rumbling through.

Back in December my real estate agent took me to the 505 sales office. I quite liked what I saw, good price/ value relationship, and I was interested in the first floor apartment because I had barbecue delusions. It was a bad weather day in December and the walk over to the site made me realize that I would prefer a building a little closer to the subway. It was not until I read on these boards that the 505 had a train running underneath it. Neither my real estate agent nor the sales agent mentioned this important detail even though I was considering the first floor. So I find these boards invaluable for giving people straight talk. It comes at you direct NYC style and is sometimes off-putting. But I'm glad to have so many eyes seeing what I do not see and opinions that I can weigh for myself. This thread has been very helpful and I still have my 505 T-shirt. Ha!

Does anyone know why the inflatible rat was in front of the building the other day? Are they still using non union workers?

I live in the neighborhood and pass by this building everyday.
I had mostly negative thoughts about this building 6months ago, including the rail track.
In the past few months, I did not notice any train noise in the morning (@work during the day so I can't commend on the rest of the day). Maybe they stopped the routing of the trains on these tracks?

CC is still high but the amentities are there (Pro or con depending on your needs)
The sponsor seems very reputable and detail oriented.

The only downside at this point is the street. This street attracts alot of crackheads and bums. Hopefully 109 new units would change this style of neighborhood.

The train noise is barely present anymore, since they covered the hole. I live close by, and I'm home during the day, and I have no noise issues. While there are some odd characters on the block, I think as the area grows this will be less present.

I wouldn't bank on the street improving anytime soon. Salvation Army center (not sure if it's a shelter or a day program for addicts or what) is on the same block, opposite side of the street, closer to 11th Ave. People will have to be patient with this area getting better -- I think it will be slow.

it will be slow. but its not so far from 9th avenue.

Vu hotel opening on 48th and 11th. That will definitely improve the area.

does a hotel really help anchor a residential neighborhood?

well it can't hurt

I don't quite follow the debate here, this is a new construction at $1000 a sq feet or less. Upon closing in 2009 and into 2011, it can only improve to more than $1000, how can anyone honestly predict less?

Everyone does agree that the area can only improve, yes, not degrade? There are many many places in Manhattan where road and traffic noise is a bigger concern, can't we somewhat bank that the engineers are accounting for the train? Furthermore, this property is tax abated, what more can anyone ask?

This is Midtown West, Helsea, HK, Manhattan!

i agree!

If you're thinking long term, and are patient, I think it'll be fine. But this is still a bit of a fringe area, with five blocks to the north and five blocks to the south each much better areas, IMHO.

These nearby buildings (one block to the south) seem to me to be typical. Prices have softened in the past year or so, and I don't think they're through. So I question whether the pullback in values is over, and I think as a fringe area, it is fairly vulnerable right now.

In age, these are a few years further along in the same area. (See a few months earlier in this thread for more discussion of the differences.) http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/516-west-47-street-manhattan
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/517-west-46-street-manhattan

Furthermore, there are less than a handful of 1 bedrooms remaining, building is preconstruction and all sold. 100+ people got it wrong? I don't think we are debating whether to buy here or not anymore?

All I'm saying is you should really get to know the street. I'm guessing the 100+ people were most entranced by the low price per square foot. Just feel comfortable with what you're --> getting <-- for your money, right now, and not based on your hopes for where the neighborhood is going.

Everything in due time. I owned on 9th avenue yrs back and it was awful, and it turned around in time. So patience is key, and its close enough.

If interested in the building.With less than a handful units remaining, it would be best to wait until they start closing on units to purchase a unit. A percentage of those will not go to closing. Whether it being the buyer not able to get a mortgage or just the buyer's financial situation in the ever changing economy.

Barbearth

It's already happening. A few units did come back and I think more are due.

How do you know this info? Just curious because we may want to reconsider which unit we have to switch.

I think justy26 has just the right perspective -- your instincts may be right about where an improving area is headed, but you need to take into account that you have no control over the exact timing in which it happens. You can guess at how it'll improve, say within a year or two, but you could be wrong. I mean, think how much better somebody did by investing in an area early if they sold in 2006, vs. in 2004. So, you just want to take into account how tolerant you truly are of that timing risk. If you would be really disappointed because it increases in value only modestly, or the street gets only a tiny bit more cleaned up, say for the next three years, you want to take that into account in your thinking. Otherwise, maybe you want to think more seriously about accepting more compromises in the space you can afford, in order to be in an area that already has turned the corner. Take 9th Avenue, for example. But, again, at the 505, we're talking between 10th and 11th. That just means it's harder to pinpoint when everyone else will "discover" the advantages of the area, and pay up for it accordingly. So you want to be particularly comfortable with that wait. And you want to realize that, for now, and maybe for the next year or two, people who live there will not be living on a great street. Not the worst, surely, but there are much better streets a few blocks to the north, and a few blocks to the south.

One other thing - from another thread on new construction (it's Williamsburg, but some of the dynamics may apply) - it has a good discussion of "pre-construction" vs. "post-construction" dynamics, and how they may be changing. Positively for the 505, it sounds like a fairly high percentage of units are already in contract, giving some stability to the outlook.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/4157-the-edge

TenthStreet
3 days ago
Ingenieur, over the past five years, sales have most certainly peaked before delivery. The idea is that there's a scarce supply of new construction, and that in a rising price environment the risk of buying sight-unseen is amply repaid by appreciation that occurs before closing. In the last several years, buying post-construction has generally meant buying the least desirable units. So yes, a vast majority of new construction buyers have bought sight-unseen over the past several years. Some people think this dynamic will change in today's environment, some don't.

bjw2103
ingenieur, definitely agree with TenthStreet here. In the past couple of years, the play was to get in pre-construction, as losing out on the better layouts and views was perceived as a greater risk than testing out the market and waiting for price drops. Now, that game is quite different - I think most people are quite wary of buying pre-construction. You'll see this pretty much exclusively for the top tier desirable buildings (535 WEA, maybe even some of the Edge, although I'm cringing putting it alongside 535 right now). I recently bought new construction but waited for the building to be nearly 100% finished before committing. I think it's much easier to get away with that now and still come out with the layout/view you want. Don't confuse this with prices dropping - I don't think they are in the better new devs as of now, but there definitely isn't that rush to get in before someone snags the place you want.

i agree with you anotherguy. i woulnd't care if it took over 5 yrs to get any better, im young, i can handle an avenue and half walk.

buddyparker

'How do you know this info? Just curious because we may want to reconsider which unit we have to switch.'

buddyparker
These two units did come back on the market after the initial buyer backed out. Info provided by the sales office.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/154230-condo-505-west-47th-street-clinton-manhattan

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/294763-condo-505-west-47th-street-clinton-manhattan

This truly is a shitty area if there is one in Manhattan.

And buyers have to either be transient or have no plans on having any family.

I completely agree. It will be a long time before it improves. You can only do so much when you have a height restriction on new development.

2+ years after closing will be 2011. If the time frame for holding is 3+, is anyone saying that it won't be profitable (hopefully quite significantly) in 2013+?

its a better area for young people and gay guys

This seems like a mix of folks that have invested their 10% in the505, potential investors, and random offensive bloggers. Does anyone know of a thread for future 505hk owners? I'd love to subscribe to folks in the first category. I have a unit on the 5th floor south. By the by, recent update from halstead is the new closing date is "summer 09". Thanks

Sorry - looks like you folks knew about summer 09 back in spring 08!

I've invested in Williamsburg back in 2003 and doubled my investment.
I think Hell's kitchen is the next thing. Lots of high rises going up, includinv vu hotel, huge conversion on 46th and 10th, etc.

one avenue up, you have all the trendy restaurants. More coming towards 10th. The area could only go up and I'd say within a year or two at most.

i mean, i don't have a crystal ball, but i think the key sign of improvement will be the quality of the 10th avenue retail, as it comes up. now, the west side of 10th avenue has virtually no retail-suitable property at all between 48th to roughly 54th, but the east side is solid low-rise with retail store-fronts the whole way from 42nd to 57th. to really improve the livability of the area, there needs to be some serious upgrading of what's available there. it's getting slowly better, but i have no sense of whether it'll get to critical mass in a hurry, or will just fill in bit by bit ... my sense is that it hasn't changed a whole lot over the past five years, but it should speed up at least somewhat.

and i think justy26 has it just right, as the ideal buyer - - young, doesn't mind the extra avenue and a half walk to the subway, totally comfortable with it staying roughly as-is for up to 5 years - - that seems realistic to me. if the economy rights itself promptly (say in the next year), it could be faster

j_nyc - I have a unit on the 5th floor of the South building too :-)

So, I took matters into my own hands. Anyone want to meet their new neighbors? Search the505hk on facebook at join the group. Tell me some detail about the front cover of the offering plan so we can help keep the group legitimate future tenants. Looking forward to meeting everyone.

I have unit on ground floor with garden. I look foward to meeting my guy neighbors for outdoor parties next summer.

I cannot find the505hk on Facebook

I cant find it either! Tried all combinations. Guy4rent I think we might be your neighbor. Also on ground floor with a big garden. jnyc let us know how to join so we can all chat. FUN:)

I can't find it either. I would go ahead and create a new one, but j_nyc, since you've already created something let's see if we can get this one working. I'm looking forward to knowing you all too!

Once we have the group set up, maybe we could send an e-mail to The 505 sales office and since they have the e-mail contact of all the buyers so far, maybe they could send out an e-mail to everyone letting them know of the group so others can join in too... I'm sure not all the buyers are aware of streeteasy...

gayinhk that sounds like a great idea! Looking forward to knowing you all as well. Sounds like a friendly group!

hmmm, one word "the505hk" seems to work for me when searching..

not sure if the full link will work...
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=63196280429&refurl=http%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fs.php%3Fq%3Dthe505hk%26init%3Dq

any luck?

Still doesn't work for me with that one word. When I click on the link you gave it works, but cant get to it through my profile.

Me either - so Jon I added you as a friend on Facebook. Although, I can't access Facebook from work.

I initially created it as part of the "New York, NY" network, but as not everyone is part of that network I started from scratch.

If this doesn't work let me know and I'll friend you and add you as a member. Thanks

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=20786127355&refurl=http%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fs.php%3Fq%3Dthe505hk%26init%3Dq

So how do I get invited to the group. Sounds like a lot of ground floor with private space owners -- me too. Nice to meet you neighbors! And guy4rent....why only guys for backyard parties...not interested in letting the girls in?

Just click on the link above and then click the link to request joining the group - at that point I think Jon will approve you...

Let me know if anyone hasn't been able to access the site.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=20786127355&refurl=http%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fs.php%3Fq%3Dthe505hk%26init%3Dq

I'll have a few folks from Halstead on to help extend the group to other owners and answer questions. If you're in contract in the 505, and aren't on facebook, I strongly recommend creating an account in order to stay current on the building.

hello j_nyc. i have a 4th fl 1bedroom facing garden reserved. i've requested to join your group on the facebook. can't wait to meet all of you in summer 2009!

Even though we can pass by and see the outside, I suppose there is no real way to assess the progress.

So is everyone planning for June of 09, or think earlier or later?

I thought it was July '09... still haven't locked in a mortgage...

Here's a decent comp, fairly new to the market - - is much further south and east, traffic and noise probably worse than the 505, but location is closer to subway, etc.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/502-9-avenue-new_york

Not a decent comp at all. No amenities and the place is located right across the street from the Lincoln Tunnel and Port Authority. There is no way this can be a comparison at all.

i agree with hk. hard to compare with a building that has no doorman.

i take your point, so maybe consider the 502 to be the ultra-low end of the area. i bring it up because earlier in this board (way back a few months) there was some discussion about how the 8th Avenue high-rises (the Link, the Platinum) were bad comps because they were on avenues and were high rises (far less desirable to some buyers), even though they were fairly close locations.

That's just it. The 505 stands alone right now, hopefully more like it in the area will come. The 8th Avenue projects are just too over-the-top with full amenities, not appealable for the full time resident who wants to make HK their home (as opposed to their hotel!). The others are all the rentals (and some condos) popping up on 42nd street -- also not good comparisons. They are more like their sisters on 8th Avenue. There are a few random projects like 502 9th Avenue that may try to be like the 505, but are either just in the wrong area, built the wrong way (umm...can we say take a look at our neighbors at 517 W 46th Street), or too small that they don't provide the amenities like the 505 (without going over-the-top like 8th Avenue). I think the 505 has done a good job building a HOME.

seems like 38th and 9th changed to rentals, they couldn't sell?

This is off topic, but I visited 38Ninth a while back. It was the weirdest experience, and I am not surprised that they didn't sell.

It was as though they weren't even trying to sell ffrom the get go. First off, the bldg. looked like ones from the 80s, which I thought was odd, given that virtually all of the new constructions in the City show some sort of attempt to make it look fashionable... Also, the layouts were such cookie cutters--with low ceilings.

Plus, there is no doorman--in that up-and-coming neighborhood, which made me nervous. Also, the bldg had ABSOLUTELY NO amenities. None. In addition, from what the sales guy said, I figured out that the bldg was to be mixed-income, and some of the larger units had been reserved for such tenants. Since he mentioned "larger units," I immediately thought larger families...more kids...a mess...noise...more strollers...etc.

As though that weren't bad enough, the sales agent was so disorganized--seeming working in an office with a bunch of unprofessional people. When you call the sales office, you don't want to feel like you are calling the DMV...

I know the geographic location is highly convenient--but the surrounding area was still too up-and-coming, and the location alone couldn't compensate for the rest of the problems. When the neighborhood gets cleaned up a little, maybe someone would consider buying.

This is off topic, but I visited 38Ninth a while back. It was the weirdest experience, and I am not surprised that they didn't sell.

It was as though they weren't even trying to sell ffrom the get go. First off, the bldg. looked like ones from the 80s, which I thought was odd, given that virtually all of the new constructions in the City show some sort of attempt to make it look fashionable... Also, the layouts were such cookie cutters--with low ceilings.

Plus, there is no doorman--in that up-and-coming neighborhood, which made me nervous. Also, the bldg had ABSOLUTELY NO amenities. None. In addition, from what the sales guy said, I figured out that the bldg was to be mixed-income, and some of the larger units had been reserved for such tenants. Since he mentioned "larger units," I immediately thought larger families...more kids...a mess...noise...more strollers...etc.

As though that weren't bad enough, the sales agent was so disorganized--seeming working in an office with a bunch of unprofessional people. When you call the sales office, you don't want to feel like you are calling the DMV...

I know the geographic location is highly convenient--but the surrounding area was still too up-and-coming, and the location alone couldn't compensate for the rest of the problems. When the neighborhood gets cleaned up a little, maybe someone would consider buying.

Hi everyone thank you for this post it was very helpful.. my boyfriend and I have a one bedroom on the 5th floor in the South building. Cant wait to meet our future neighbors!

hello. please join us in facebook!

Long ago in this thread, I had mentioned that the 505's neighborhood (area west of 10th Avenue) had some barriers to long term redevelopment/gentrification.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/enb2004/20040630/not2.html

http://www.apartmentratings.com/rate/NY-New-York-River-Place-Apartments-416472.html [first paragraph of review discusses the Silverstein building's neighboring tower, which was put up in 2000]

In particular, the area was historically industrial, with lots of car dealerships and auto body places (like on 48th St., and 47th St.). I really don't see the area getting better fast, because anyone who sinks money into it also has to deal with the environmental cleanup. I also noted that it was no coincidence that the 505 and Clinton West (one block to the south) were being built over railroad tracks - - because they are not disturbing much land to do so. The cleanup issues make easier tear-downs more difficult.

I just happened to come across some mentions of the new Silver Towers (Larry Silverstein, the WTC site owner) at 11th Ave and 42nd St. The links discuss the brownfield cleanup aspects that I think are typical of the area.

The better I get to know the area, the stronger the feeling I get that it's going to struggle to get critical mass for a long time. Again, there's a good reason that only the recent boom generated enough land demand to result in the new buildings that have gone up there.

any update on this building? wondering if occupancy expected to proceed as planned?

with recent fall in real estate value, has anyone tried to renegotiate there contract price?

What's happening at the 505.. any really serious problems ?

Biggest fake out from onsites is saying most of the stuff is taken already...2 months go by, there are still apts available and new ones coming on...It should be against the law

Hi Guys! Anyone who bought at the 505 should check out our face group page. The group is 505 w 47th!!

Are there any available apts here...is it worth the price?

in a nutshell no way... they have even increased prices on their units in 2008, look at PH3S

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/184877-condo-505-west-47th-street-clinton-new-york

Attention: All 505 Future Homeowners and Contractees

If you are in contract at the 505 and have not already joined our group on Facebook, we ask you to contact us immediately to discuss thoughts about the development as we approach crucial closings in the next few months. Brokers, sales agents and other parties - DO NOT REPLY. This group is for FUTURE RESIDENTS ONLY.

505HKResidents@gmail.com

We look forward to hearing from you.

-Future 505HK Residents

Is this another building where people are thinking about walking?

Whoa...just looked at the "optimistic" asking prices on unsold....and the long list of pending closed....So, what makes this different from Rushmore? Is there any logical reason to close if you are a depositor?

I think it's safe to say that the residents of the Rushmore and 505 aren't the only developments in Manhattan where people are highly tempted to walk away.

Trying to sell condos in bulk at the 505: http://ny.therealdeal.com/articles/halstead-selling-condos-by-the-bundle

Correct. You can see the effects of this on Streeteasy's listings today.

Premises: 505 WEST 47 STREET MANHATTAN Filed At: 505 WEST 47 STREET , MANHATTAN , NY 10036
BIN: 1813121 Block: 1076 Lot: 24 Community Board: 104

ECB Violation Summary VIOLATION ACTIVE
ECB Violation Number: 34764843J
Violation Severity: CLASS - 1 Status: PENDING VIOLATION
Respondent Information
Name: 10TH AVE FREEZE OUT LLC
Mailing Address: 511 6 AVENUE , NY , NY 10011
Violation Details
Issue Date: 04/22/2009 Violation Type: CN - CONSTRUCTION
Served Date: 04/22/2009 Issuing Unit: SCAFFOLD SAFETY TEAM

Infraction Codes Section of Law Standard Description
101 28-105.1 WORK WITHOUT A PERMIT
Specific Violation Condition(s) and Remedy:
WORK W/O A PERMIT. NOTED: INSTALLED MATERIAL HOIST W/O A PERMIT/CD-5 ON ROOF THAT IS BUILT INCORRECTLY. STOP ALL WORK ON MATERIAL HOIST. REMEDY: OBTAIN PERMIT.

Issuing Inspector ID: 2258 DOB Violation Number: 042209CSSUJF02
Issued as Aggravated Level: NO
Hearing Information
Scheduled Hearing Date: 06/11/2009 Hearing Status: PENDING VIOLATION
Hearing Time: 10:30

hmmm... does anyone know the ramifications of this particular violation?? Guess we'll find out 6/11/09 or shortly thereafter.

Walking home tonight, I saw a notice on a lamp post that the city is planning to build an affordable housing building above the railroad tracks across the street from the 505 (on the 48th Street side). FYI.

What is going on with this building? Looks like it's getting close to being ready for occupancy. Have closings happened? Are people going ahead with the 2007 prices they committed to originally? Financial condition of the developer at this point?

The future residents seem to be trying to keep all their discussion under wraps on a restricted Facebook page.

Are people going to back out of there contracts here? Seems like a real downer to live across the street from an affordable housing building. bad for resale!

have they started closings yet here? concerning that the contractees have sealed themselves off on facebook. were re-negotiations successful? anyone? beuler? beuler?

No one is closing at this building...I've heard that almost half of the buyers in contract at this building have revoked their contracts citing the developer's non-compliance with Federal requirements as well as not disclosing a property report. Don't think the building got the memo as there are long banners in front of the building saying there's "less than 10 units left." Not an astrophysicist but if half of the original buyers supposedly revoked, there's a lot MORE than 10 units left. I feel bad for the people that have to deal with the sky-high common charges if this building really isn't sold as advertised.

Maverick, where are you getting this information?

Been some buzz in the press that I saw (NYPost, a bit pro-developer IMO) and also Curbed/TRD (more neutral) -- the developers have also publicized this over the PR wire that the building has it's TCO & over 90% sold. I've spoken to a party familiar with the owners that have revoked and cannot name who. I'd call the broker and developer to inquire as well - though from the looks of the PR coming out, they've ignored half of these people's revocations.

If I was purchasing here and I was being told it's over 90% sold (good for financing) when it's really 50% sold (bad/impossible for financing depending on the bank) - I'd be beyond pissed. Not to mention the developers for this property are thinking of developing an affordable housing complex across the north building -- I wondered why a developer would do that to recent purchasers but...probably better for another thread.

Clinton= anagram for lincoln Tunnel

I always thought of Clinton as the West 50's -- and the Lincoln Tunnel area in the West 30's and 40's as Hell's Kitchen "proper"

Agreed Maverick, don't think patient09 knows his way around all that well. Does anyone know how many closings, if any, have occured? Does anyone know what the Developer plans on doing with those that have agreed to walk away from their deposits, and what incentive they are providing for those who are willing to close. I sure as hell would not want to close in an empty building - there was that recent article about the lone owner in an entire condo in Florida, they had to cease all services in the building.

the market's recovery should solve the issue organically. condo buyers won't be searching for excuses to walk away from deals they agreed to.

Um, exactly which recovery are you referring to, Dorothy?

Oh wait, I get it - that was a tongue-in-cheek comment. Sorry for being so dense

maverick, hkinterested: sorry, you missed the point.

maverick, that comment is hysterical. clinton is a totally made up concept, devised by real estate brokers in the '90s to overcome the stigma of hell's kitchen, and to give them something to say other than hell's kitchen. just like the low west 30s became chelsea, so they could quit saying the penn station area.

as someone who lived in three apartments in the area, from 46th to 54th streets, hell's kitchen is hell's kitchen. clinton is what dolly forces herself to say when she has to discuss the neighborhood.

maverick, what do you mean by the skyrocket of CC? Even if only one unit is sold, the CC remains the same (at least for a year or two then 15-20% increase).

where does hells kitchen come from anyways ?

The CC will probably be manageable for a year, but after that - forget about it. And yes - Clinton is a totally made-up concept, just as Central Park North is :) What's crazy is there's a new area being labeled -- the streets directly to the west of Columbus Circle being named, in unoriginal fashion, Columbus Circle West!

Dorothy, I hope that was a tongue in-cheek comment or else I'd think you were a broker!

not a broker, not a tongue-in-cheek comment.. i'm not allowed to think that the market will recover sooner, rather than later? once it does, people won't try to get out of contracts, that's all i'm saying.

Let's hope all this excess luxury inventory that's building up gets filled out then...

Maverick - it will, but at a significant discount.

hkinterested: you used to be quite active on this board in the beginning. from your old posts i gathered that you were in contract at the 505. is the info above (people revoking contracts) accurate? the "non-compliance with Federal requirements" issue sounds convenient, but is it enough to break a contract?

looks like there is closing activity at the building.

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/505-condominium-in-hell%E2%80%99s-kitchen-at-505-west-47th-street-developers-warned-buyers-of-suits-documents-show-but-still-face-buyers-revolt

There may have been closings, but definitely not from the group of people walking away. The information above about people revoking contracts is 100% accurate. Don't let Halstead/Nest Seekers fool you -- there have been numerous defaults to date and it would be foolish to think that there won't be more coming in the following weeks.

I think it's safe to assume that people that have closed in this building are those that haven't been informed of the large litigation from the "other half" of the building.

Even the t-shirts pilled!