stolen, not stirred.. just more "neo-con bamboozle speech" you never answered my question as to why you keep bashing Wall Street greedy Republicans, when the large 8 brokerage houses heavily voted Democratic... coincidence?? "Goldman ‘Should Win Big’ Under New Regulations" http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2010/08/11/goldman-should-win-big-under-new-reform-law/ riddle time.. Suppose that every day, ten... [more]
stolen, not stirred..
just more "neo-con bamboozle speech"
you never answered my question as to why you keep bashing Wall Street greedy Republicans, when the large 8 brokerage houses heavily voted Democratic...
coincidence??
"Goldman ‘Should Win Big’ Under New Regulations"
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2010/08/11/goldman-should-win-big-under-new-reform-law/
riddle time..
Suppose that every day, ten men go out for lunch and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men ate lunch in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily lunch by $20." Lunch for the ten now cost just $80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'
They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to eat. So, the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.
And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).
Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.
"I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!"
"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I got" "That's true!!" shouted the seventh man.
"Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"
"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
The next night the tenth man didn't show up for lunch so the nine sat down and had lunch without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
And that is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore.
In fact, they might start eating overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.
For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.
[less]
Response by huntersburg
over 15 years ago
Posts: 11329
Member since: Nov 2010
Those remaining 9 could just get a new higher paying job from a poor person, or the government.
Ignored comment.
Unhide
Response by 007
over 15 years ago
Posts: 195
Member since: Nov 2008
So I also considered not showing up for lunch but first I had to give up my citizenship since as a US citizen I am taxed living overseas. I then asked myself where else I wanted to live and get my new citizenship? as a civilized person, I considered Europe- ooops they taxed wealth and have a VAT, Perhaps China will tolerate my wealth? no, not sure that they will. Russia will adopt me but I shall need bodyguards in Moscow as well as in San Paulo or Rio. I guess that since I converse in English, I could considered UK (the same taxes and VAT) or Sidney? So at the end, I preferred to pay for lunch, and complain to my poor friends about being rich in NYC.
Ignored comment.
Unhide
Response by huntersburg
over 15 years ago
Posts: 11329
Member since: Nov 2010
007, not to mention that the United States is the most entrepreneurial and spirited country in the world and best in a position to be able to weather today's global problems. I can't imagine where else I'd rather live than here, so long as we fight off temptations to socialize our economy and punish entrepreneuriship, risk-taking, hard work and personal responsibility.
Ignored comment.
Unhide
Response by hol4
over 15 years ago
Posts: 710
Member since: Nov 2008
wonder if they have the same breadth of taxes in China as here..
Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
Capital Gains Tax
CDL license Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Court Fines (indirect taxes)
Dog License Tax
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel permit tax
Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Local Income Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Septic Permit Tax
Service Charge Taxes
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
Sales Taxes
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Road Toll Booth Taxes
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone federal excise tax
Telephone federal universal service fee tax
Telephone federal, state and
local surcharge taxes
Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
Telephone state and local tax
Telephone usage charge tax
Toll Bridge Taxes
Toll Tunnel Taxes
Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
Trailer Registration Tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax
where is Alternative Minimum Tax??
Ignored comment.
Unhide
Response by huntersburg
over 15 years ago
Posts: 11329
Member since: Nov 2010
Ah, the toll bridge tax. I want my bridges for free.
Ignored comment.
Unhide
Response by hol4
over 15 years ago
Posts: 710
Member since: Nov 2008
yes last I heard Verazano is $13...g-d forbid I need to bang Vinny..
I prefer Pauly D tho, nice n tight
Ignored comment.
Unhide
Response by NYRENewbie
over 15 years ago
Posts: 591
Member since: Mar 2008
hol4, that was great! I loved it!
Ignored comment.
Unhide
Response by Socialist
over 15 years ago
Posts: 2261
Member since: Feb 2010
"so long as we fight off temptations to socialize our economy and punish entrepreneuriship, risk-taking, hard work and personal responsibility."
What do you think TARP was? It was SOCIALISM for the rich. We've had Socialism long before you were born and we will hae it long after your kids and grandkids die from old age.
Ignored comment.
Unhide
Response by hol4
over 15 years ago
Posts: 710
Member since: Nov 2008
"What do you think TARP was? It was SOCIALISM for the rich."
Which "Rich"?
"Greedy" Savings and Loans banks with "neo-con" Republican CEO's making $400,000 off a paltry $800MM AUM...
or "Charitable" Democratic Wall Street honchos who took home $45 million by playing with Billions of tax-payer money??
so, your right, Wall St. is in bed with the Dems. But big business is far more in bed with the Republicans (See: US Chamber of Commerce).
Ignored comment.
Unhide
Response by LICComment
over 15 years ago
Posts: 3610
Member since: Dec 2007
007- or the person can cut the number of people who come to lunch with him and go to a cheaper place.
Ignored comment.
Unhide
Response by huntersburg
over 15 years ago
Posts: 11329
Member since: Nov 2010
If TARP was socialism for the rich, then that's good for the non-rich, right? Now the rich can pay taxes.
Ignored comment.
Unhide
Response by falcogold1
over 15 years ago
Posts: 4159
Member since: Sep 2008
What if you got rich by manipulating markets, manipulating state local and federal policy to favor your plans? What if your riches were the result of Wall street /investment banking chicanery ?
Thankfully we don't have any of that in this town.
Ignored comment.
Unhide
Response by hol4
over 15 years ago
Posts: 710
Member since: Nov 2008
falcogold1 "What if you got rich by... manipulating state local and federal policy"
a penny to the Democratic party gets you a dollar, where do i sign up
Ignored comment.
Unhide
Response by huntersburg
over 15 years ago
Posts: 11329
Member since: Nov 2010
>What if you got rich by manipulating markets, manipulating state local and federal policy to favor your plans? What if your riches were the result of Wall street /investment banking chicanery ?
Thankfully we don't have any of that in this town.
Ok, I see what types of getting rich are not acceptable. What types are acceptable? And do you favor different tax rates depending on how the person got rich?
Ignored comment.
Unhide
Response by hol4
over 15 years ago
Posts: 710
Member since: Nov 2008
huntersburg "Ok, I see what types of getting rich are not acceptable. What types are acceptable?"
hunt,
not one bit.
I have always known what the rules are: there are no rules.
In life there are neiher rewards nor punishments.
There are consequences.
Ignored comment.
Unhide
Response by johnval
over 15 years ago
Posts: 10
Member since: Feb 2010
Hol4, this is perhaps the smartest thing anyone has written on this entire website to date.
Ignored comment.
Unhide
Response by d0csmooth
over 15 years ago
Posts: 7
Member since: Feb 2009
HOl4, your analogy would be fitting if living in the US economy was equivalent to eating lunch at a restaurant. Unfortunately, i'm not so sure that's how our economy works work.
What would make more sense is if you compared the American public to the restaurant owners. Taxes are not an expense incurred to enjoy the benefits your country can offer. As an American citizen, you should consider taxes an investment in the country. So yes, the rich man invested more in the country, so he got a greater reward. To be clear, our system does NOT take people on net worth. If you move here filthy rich and you dont earn a penny you dont pay more taxes. That is the assumption your "riddle" makes. It doesnt matter how rich you are, it only matters what you earned in a given year. In other words, you are taxed on what you take OUT of the system so you are expected to put more into the system. The difference is your investment is "retroactive."
As an American citizen, you shouldnt consider your gov't a restaurant that "serves" you. Instead, you should consider yourself one of the restaurant owners.
Furthermore, the whole reason we need to raise taxes in the first place is because your homie GW recklessly spent spent spent while at the same time cutting taxes. So as manager of the restaurant, he kept telling everyone to invest less, didnt decrease any of the debt he owed to the bank (china and japan), and went out and spent a lot of money on capital expenditures that in hindsight have had no economic or arguably social benefit. To make it worse, he lied to the investors to get a lot of that spending approved (iraq war).
So...
1. Now the restaurant is running out of money and locals and tourists dont want to eat there a much as they used to
2. We cant ask the investors for more money because the investors eat at the restaurant too and will stay home if we take more money for them (yes i agree with the tax extensions)
3. We have to ask the bank for more money even though interest rates will go higher and the interest expense for the restaurant will soon become unbearable
4. And our head chef quit and it according to case shiller he's not coming back any time soon and there is no replacment in sight
5. 2 new restaurants opened across the street and their workers are willing to work for a fraction of our restaurant and their local neighborhood is way bigger than ours
6. The management of the restaurant wants to CUT spending now because of the restaurant's budget issues
So as you can see, it's not as simple anymore as 10 guys deciding where to eat and how to split the bill. The US economy is the biggest business in the world, and it looks like it's about to be run into the ground. Hopefully, like the Texas Rangers did after GW left them, we can make a comeback...
Ignored comment.
Unhide
Response by d0csmooth
over 15 years ago
Posts: 7
Member since: Feb 2009
Also, if the purpose of your post is to spark discussion, it's confusing when paste this at the end of it:
"For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible."
slapping that at the end of ur "riddle" makes u sounds like a lacrosse playing high school senior whose daddy just explained to them how unfair it is that he has to pay more taxes than his gardener...
believe it or not, a lot of the people you refer to as "socialists" actually have the same agenda as many conservatives: raising the standard of living and maximizing opportunity for as many people in this country as possible.
Ignored comment.
Unhide
Response by ss400k
over 15 years ago
Posts: 405
Member since: Nov 2008
docunsmooth: "Also, if the purpose of your post is to spark discussion, it's confusing when paste this at the end of it:
"For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.""
I'd (and possibly OP) assume you fall in the latter category.
Those remaining 9 could just get a new higher paying job from a poor person, or the government.
So I also considered not showing up for lunch but first I had to give up my citizenship since as a US citizen I am taxed living overseas. I then asked myself where else I wanted to live and get my new citizenship? as a civilized person, I considered Europe- ooops they taxed wealth and have a VAT, Perhaps China will tolerate my wealth? no, not sure that they will. Russia will adopt me but I shall need bodyguards in Moscow as well as in San Paulo or Rio. I guess that since I converse in English, I could considered UK (the same taxes and VAT) or Sidney? So at the end, I preferred to pay for lunch, and complain to my poor friends about being rich in NYC.
007, not to mention that the United States is the most entrepreneurial and spirited country in the world and best in a position to be able to weather today's global problems. I can't imagine where else I'd rather live than here, so long as we fight off temptations to socialize our economy and punish entrepreneuriship, risk-taking, hard work and personal responsibility.
wonder if they have the same breadth of taxes in China as here..
Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
Capital Gains Tax
CDL license Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Court Fines (indirect taxes)
Dog License Tax
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel permit tax
Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Local Income Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Septic Permit Tax
Service Charge Taxes
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
Sales Taxes
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Road Toll Booth Taxes
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone federal excise tax
Telephone federal universal service fee tax
Telephone federal, state and
local surcharge taxes
Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
Telephone state and local tax
Telephone usage charge tax
Toll Bridge Taxes
Toll Tunnel Taxes
Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
Trailer Registration Tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax
where is Alternative Minimum Tax??
Ah, the toll bridge tax. I want my bridges for free.
yes last I heard Verazano is $13...g-d forbid I need to bang Vinny..
I prefer Pauly D tho, nice n tight
hol4, that was great! I loved it!
"so long as we fight off temptations to socialize our economy and punish entrepreneuriship, risk-taking, hard work and personal responsibility."
What do you think TARP was? It was SOCIALISM for the rich. We've had Socialism long before you were born and we will hae it long after your kids and grandkids die from old age.
"What do you think TARP was? It was SOCIALISM for the rich."
Which "Rich"?
"Greedy" Savings and Loans banks with "neo-con" Republican CEO's making $400,000 off a paltry $800MM AUM...
or "Charitable" Democratic Wall Street honchos who took home $45 million by playing with Billions of tax-payer money??
again coincidence??
Goldman %u2018Should Win Big%u2019 Under New Regulations"
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2010/08/11/goldman-should-win-big-under-new-reform-law/
so, your right, Wall St. is in bed with the Dems. But big business is far more in bed with the Republicans (See: US Chamber of Commerce).
007- or the person can cut the number of people who come to lunch with him and go to a cheaper place.
If TARP was socialism for the rich, then that's good for the non-rich, right? Now the rich can pay taxes.
What if you got rich by manipulating markets, manipulating state local and federal policy to favor your plans? What if your riches were the result of Wall street /investment banking chicanery ?
Thankfully we don't have any of that in this town.
falcogold1 "What if you got rich by... manipulating state local and federal policy"
$274,963/yr - MTA Car Repairman - Visceglia, Michael
http://www.seethroughny.net/PayrollsPensions/tabid/55/Payrolls/StatePayroll/tabid/69/Default.aspx?BRANCHID=4
$321,985 yr - Toll worker
http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/traffic/traffic_news/audit-excessive-perks-for-nj-turnpike-employees-20101019-apx
$Billions in IB/HF bonuses post joke of 'financial bill'.. who got paid in DC?
"Goldman %u2018Should Win Big%u2019 Under New Regulations"
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2010/08/11/goldman-should-win-big-under-new-reform-law/
ah nothin like gov't Union thuggery..
a penny to the Democratic party gets you a dollar, where do i sign up
>What if you got rich by manipulating markets, manipulating state local and federal policy to favor your plans? What if your riches were the result of Wall street /investment banking chicanery ?
Thankfully we don't have any of that in this town.
Ok, I see what types of getting rich are not acceptable. What types are acceptable? And do you favor different tax rates depending on how the person got rich?
huntersburg "Ok, I see what types of getting rich are not acceptable. What types are acceptable?"
good Q's..reminds me of Milton..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A
hunt,
not one bit.
I have always known what the rules are: there are no rules.
In life there are neiher rewards nor punishments.
There are consequences.
Hol4, this is perhaps the smartest thing anyone has written on this entire website to date.
HOl4, your analogy would be fitting if living in the US economy was equivalent to eating lunch at a restaurant. Unfortunately, i'm not so sure that's how our economy works work.
What would make more sense is if you compared the American public to the restaurant owners. Taxes are not an expense incurred to enjoy the benefits your country can offer. As an American citizen, you should consider taxes an investment in the country. So yes, the rich man invested more in the country, so he got a greater reward. To be clear, our system does NOT take people on net worth. If you move here filthy rich and you dont earn a penny you dont pay more taxes. That is the assumption your "riddle" makes. It doesnt matter how rich you are, it only matters what you earned in a given year. In other words, you are taxed on what you take OUT of the system so you are expected to put more into the system. The difference is your investment is "retroactive."
As an American citizen, you shouldnt consider your gov't a restaurant that "serves" you. Instead, you should consider yourself one of the restaurant owners.
Furthermore, the whole reason we need to raise taxes in the first place is because your homie GW recklessly spent spent spent while at the same time cutting taxes. So as manager of the restaurant, he kept telling everyone to invest less, didnt decrease any of the debt he owed to the bank (china and japan), and went out and spent a lot of money on capital expenditures that in hindsight have had no economic or arguably social benefit. To make it worse, he lied to the investors to get a lot of that spending approved (iraq war).
So...
1. Now the restaurant is running out of money and locals and tourists dont want to eat there a much as they used to
2. We cant ask the investors for more money because the investors eat at the restaurant too and will stay home if we take more money for them (yes i agree with the tax extensions)
3. We have to ask the bank for more money even though interest rates will go higher and the interest expense for the restaurant will soon become unbearable
4. And our head chef quit and it according to case shiller he's not coming back any time soon and there is no replacment in sight
5. 2 new restaurants opened across the street and their workers are willing to work for a fraction of our restaurant and their local neighborhood is way bigger than ours
6. The management of the restaurant wants to CUT spending now because of the restaurant's budget issues
So as you can see, it's not as simple anymore as 10 guys deciding where to eat and how to split the bill. The US economy is the biggest business in the world, and it looks like it's about to be run into the ground. Hopefully, like the Texas Rangers did after GW left them, we can make a comeback...
Also, if the purpose of your post is to spark discussion, it's confusing when paste this at the end of it:
"For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible."
slapping that at the end of ur "riddle" makes u sounds like a lacrosse playing high school senior whose daddy just explained to them how unfair it is that he has to pay more taxes than his gardener...
believe it or not, a lot of the people you refer to as "socialists" actually have the same agenda as many conservatives: raising the standard of living and maximizing opportunity for as many people in this country as possible.
docunsmooth: "Also, if the purpose of your post is to spark discussion, it's confusing when paste this at the end of it:
"For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.""
I'd (and possibly OP) assume you fall in the latter category.