2nd avenue subway construction

http://www.mta.info/news/stories/?story=187

See you in 2016....

2025 at the earliest.

Life is too short.

i would say 5 - 10 years and take it from somebody who just moved from that area. Its much worse then you could possibly think it is.

samadams, how so? And what part of Second Avenue?

You don't care about potential value down the road? You must be very, very wealthy. So if money is no object, why not move somewhere else where there isn't a problem with quality of life issues.

Forget investment issues. What about safety issues. I wouldn't move there based on some RE brokers assurances. I would want to read engineer reports on safety issues. I heard one company pulled out their equipment because they thought that the risk of potential law suits in future decades would not be worth it.

apt23, your response is a little glib, no? If the OP is thinking about an apartment to live in for retirement and in which they'll stay for possibly the rest of their lives, then resale value is indeed meaningless. My parents were in such a position in recent years when they decided to buy an apartment they could see themselves in until 'death do them part.' The only resale considerations would fall to the estate and since you can't take it with you, who cares. And just because you aren't going to resell it doesn't mean you have unlimited wealth. You have what you have and if a 2 bedroom on the UES is what you can afford, telling them to move to Park Avenue isn't really constructive advice, is it?

On many blocks of 2nd Ave the construction is little more than an inconvenience. Digging takes place underground, and if the block you are looking at isn't at a future station stop, then you may not experience the project very much at all. Parking is a mess on parts of 2nd Ave, but just park somewhere else. Also, if you are out most of the day when construcction takes place, then it also has less significance. Finally, most large 2nd Ave coops/condos have entrances on the side streets which further reduces inconvenience.

Certainly it is important to closely look at the project's impact on any given building in which you are looking. And I would say you should expect the project to continue indefinitely so you can conservatively evaluate the impact on you should you move. It isn't unreasonable to imagine it going on to 2020 no matter what the city says.

For some people living at especially bad locations right now, it is not good. But for many others the project negligibly impacts them.

KW: Any conservative financial plan re RE should include unforeseen circumstances. Death of spouse, crippling disease, loss of job or income revenue, etc. I understand your point re your parents but sometime life has other plans. I can't imagine not taking into consideration future value potential unless you are very, very wealthy. Safety issues and quality of life issues will impact that area for years. If you have to move suddenly for some reason, you should consider how those issues will affect resale value.

Curious: what are the "safety issues"?

kylewest, not addressed to me, but things do seem to collapse a lot at construction sites, and there does not seem to be a guarantee to keep the casualties safely restricted to migrant workers. this paranoid mind clearly imagines buildings sinking because of some idiots' miscalculations. or at least a child or small pet.

It just seems there is construction all over the city. Who calculates that into their lives in terms of building collapse/crane accident/steam pipe explosion risks? Is the safety concern here that 2nd Avenue will collapse and then all the buildings will slide into it? I don't get it. Noise, vibration, traffic disruption I understand. Safety as a reason to not buy on any block of 2nd Ave? Kinda nutty. The digging is deep beneath the street--7 stories deep. TNT and drilling has been ongoing for years now. That is the highest risk phase of work I would think. No craters eating buildings to date though. http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/08/second-avenue-subway/?pid=25&viewall=true

If you love an apartment on or near 2nd Avenue = go for it!!

>Forget investment issues. What about safety issues. I wouldn't move there based on some RE brokers assurances. I would want to read engineer reports on safety issues. I heard one company pulled out their equipment because they thought that the risk of potential law suits in future decades would not be worth it.

>Curious: what are the "safety issues"?

Asking Chicken Little about safety issues? This woman is a nutcase worried more about day to day life than anyone else I've ever met. Worse than a mother or mother in law. How she manages in New York City, ...

kylewest - your first paragraph is right. Even though this isn't a "till death do us part" apartment, our time horizon is suffiently long that ultimate resale value is very low on the list of considerations, especially since so much can happen (to us, our financial situation, to the apartment, to the neighborhood, to the city) between now and the time we ultimately sell it.

However, I am not sure I follow the rest of your argument. I've walked and driven down second avenue, and the whole area is a complete disaster, loud, filthy, sort of depressing. And we have kids who will be home during the day.

Socialist, thanks for the link. I took a look at it, and all over the MTA website, but, to my frustration was not able to make any sense of any of it. I didn't see a detailed map/description of where exactly the subway would run, did not see any estimates of time beyond the "Phase I by 2016," whatever that means. Has anyone else run across better information? Or has anyone had success emailing questions to the MTA? Thanks again.

kyle. no one suggested extremes -- like collapse-- as safety concerns. But there are things to be concerned about. If I was buying, I would check into any effects on the building foundation, pointing etc. The MTA picked up the cost for repairing many buildings on 2nd Avenue -- though they denied any damage was caused by the blasting. The MTA claimed they were paying the millions of dollars in repairs for reasons of expediency. That is something I would investigate if I were buying on 2nd avenue.

newbuyer99: what I meant was that if you live in a given building, you aren't living on ALL of 2nd Avenue. You live on a particular block. What goes on on that block is what is most relevant. If it is a block between future station stops and where the tunnel is being bored 7 stories below the ground, then the actual disruption is much less than if you live over a future station stop which has much more street level doings, or if you live in a section that is shallower and being built by tearing up and then covering 2nd Ave. itself.

If you are stuck home during the day with small kids, then the noise issues matter more. If you can't go down to 1st Ave or up to Third to walk north-south and must for some reason walk on 2nd a great deal, then it is also more of an issue. But these are all things individual buyers have to weigh. My point is that for many people the subway construction is not a deal breaker. I was just at friends' apt on 2nd and 74th St on the 14th floor. In the evenings you wouldn't even know there was a construction project in terms of noise, and the entrance is on 74th street so no disruption there. 2nd Ave at street level has lots of construction type trailer/vehicle/storage things I think, but it makes about no difference to them at all in terms of daily life. But 2 blocks down is a subway entrance on 2nd Ave and it is more of a mess there.

Bottom line is you really have to go see the specific sight and plan on the project continuing indefinitely.

A few things:

newbuyer99 - re: timing and scope, only phase I, which will includes new stations at 96th, 86th and 72nd and new entrances at 63rd where the SAS will connect to an existing line, is going to happen any time soon. Whether it's operational in 2016, 2018 or whenever remains to be seen. To give you a sense, when construction started in 2007 it was a 6 year project to be operational in 2013. After a year of work, it was a 7-years-remaining project to be done in 2015. One step forward, two back. It later slipped to Dec 2016 and I agree with others who think later is more likely. The full map shown here: http://www.mta.info/capconstr/sas/ is a fantasy. There may not be a full SAS (T line) to the Financial District within the lifetime of anyone currently on SE. Seriously. The current project is basically a northern extension of the Q train (as seen in the link above) that will give people a one seat ride from the eastern UES to central Midtown (going down Broadway).

kylewest is mostly right about the construction methods and blasting. The tunnels are being bored ~70 feet underground, so there really is no issue there. The surface work to date has mostly been replacement and relocation of utilities in advance of construction of stations and station entrances. It's very messy, but not much of a threat to building fundations, facades, etc. The exception is in the low '90s, where a deep cavern was hollowed out to get in the tunnel boring machine for the tunnels. This involved blasting, and as apt23 noted, structural integrity of some buildings was compromised, although the MTA denies the cause and effect relationship here. Blasting is coming to 86th and 83rd (for the north and south entrances of the 86th street station) and 72nd and 69th (for 72nd st) in the near future as they mine access shafts to get from the surface to the station/tunnel level so they can create the station caverns and then build out the actual facilities. Blasting a 20' (or whatever) diameter shaft involves nowhere near as much explosive as blasting out a cavern the full width of the avenue, 7 stories deep and several blocks long in the low '90s, but it's still not a happy prospect if you are thinking of buying in a building that sits right above the shaft. Maybe it's benign and maybe it isn't, but who wants to be the guinea pig.

On safety, esp. re: children, by bigger concern is the way that the sidewalks have been cut back and traffic flows diverted on many blocks. There aren't proper curbs in some places and there isn't much margin of safety if a child is not paying attention or trips and ends up in the street. In places the traffic is going right by your shoulder as a pedestrian.

I agree with kylewest about the specific block and building mattering quite a bit. The 90s are a mess, as is 86-87th St, either side of 83rd, either side of 72nd and 69th. In the oases in between, it's not an issue, and won't be. The overall level of surface disturbance is near a peak right now, as utility relocation goes on in many places, truck traffic to carry away the rock mined out of the tunnels is high and the access shafts have to be mined for the new stations. Once the second tunnel is completed (mid 2011) and the heavy utility relo in the mid- to high 90s, 86th, 83rd and 72nd winds down (also 2011), the nastiness is going to be mostly contained to the areas around the new stations. But on those blocks it's going to go on for a LOOOONG time.

sidelinesitter, you might well be right about Wall St. access, but the planned Q extension goes beyond midtown. From the Times Square, it heads down Bway all the way to Canal St., then chugs along to Astroland.

Ummm, no. The Q train already operates down Broadway, through Canal St and out to Astroland, so most of the yellow line shown on the MTA map linked in my post already exists. The extension is the SAS part that takes the northerly terminus of the Q from 57th & 7th to 96th & 2nd.

sidelinesitter - very helpful information, thank you. How do you know all this? Any sources other than the MTA that I should spend some time on?

kylewest - everything you say makes sense. I think I/we are more sensitive to the disruption than some other potential buyers, but I undestand how for others it may be less of an issue.

Some specific buildings we are consider are:

250 East 87th - total disaster area right now, and based on sideline sitter's analysis, will probably be one for a while.
300 East 85th - is this close enough to 86th to be part of the disaster area, or might it be ok?
301 East 62nd - based on all the above, plus what I saw on the MTA website, looks like the subway construction will end north of 63rd, which is great for this building.

Thanks for everyone

Thanks to everyone, not for everyone.

nb99 - happy to help. I know this because I live along the affected area of Second Av, so I have been following the whole thing for four or five years. I have other sources, for example looking out my living room window, but the reality is that I got most of what I know from MTA materials. Unfortunately the MTA's presentation materials generally aren't very useful for someone trying to get clear answers to project scope, timing, etc. While they post update presentations every few months, they tend to be narrowly topical (69th Street Station entrances or whatever) and generally won't do much for someone who doesn't have some previous knowledge and context. There is a quarterly construction update (http://www.mta.info/capconstr/sas/documents/sas_Q3_FTAReport.pdf) that explains what is going on at each major site (96th, 86th and 72nd St work are each separate contracts, for example), but this snapshot of current contracts doesn't address the overall project progress. The first fews slides of this presentation (http://www.mta.info/capconstr/sas/documents/090924_C1C2AC5ACombined_CB8_final.pdf) is the best presentation of overall schedule that I've seen. However, it is a year and a half old and they haven't updated it in subsequent presentations, so who knows how accurate it is at this point. Ignoring the uncertainties of timeline, though, it is a good summary of the major elements of the project and where along the avenue the work is located.

Re: specific buildings:
250E87 - agree that this stays a disaster area for a while. The utility relo at street level is bad right now and will get much better within 2011, but the surface level activity related to the 86th St station construction will be on the north side of 86th, right at or right across the avenue from this building
300E85 (and throw in 305E85, a.k.a., the Georgica) - not sure. So far there has been some utility relo work on the south side of 86th (btw 86th and 85th), but that is finished. I don't know if more is planned and if so how far south it will extend. For example, if the mess that is currently in the middle of 2nd Av between 86th and 87th moves south when the 86-87 block is done, that's a year of noise, dirt and eyesore at the corner of 85th. If not, I actually think that 1 block+ (north side of 86th to south side of 85th) is enough of a buffer that 300E85 is OK
301E62 - agree that construction is benign for this building. The new 63rd street entrance(s) to the existing 63rd & Lex station are actually at 3rd Av, not 2nd, so the southernmost construction on 2nd is the 69th St entrance to the 72nd St station. To me, 68th and south on 2nd is fine. One question, though. If this building already has easy walking access to 63rd & Lex and to 59th (4,5,6,N,R) - which it does - how much of a benefit is the SAS? You'll be able to enter the 63rd St station at 3rd instead of Lex. Big deal.

For the 86th Street Station area, all of the zone from 87th to 83rd will be affected for a number of years. On the MTA website under Capital Construction, you'll want to check out the FEIS document and Chapter 3 on Construction Methods and Activities as well as the Supplement for the 86th Street Station and also the appendix 3-7, 3-8 with illustrations of cut/cover techniques. They detail that Second Avenue from 86th to 83rd will be demolished and noisy/nasty cut and cover mining will be employed to hollow out the station. As part of this, there will be about 100 dump trucks per day taking away rock and soil dropped from cranes throughout the day outside your windows. The secant and slurry wall process (which is very noisy) will take about one year to complete to create the retaining walls for the station itself. You have to study the MTA documents b/c no one trying to sell or rent an apt would dare be forthcoming in any of this.

http://www.mta.info/capconstr/sas/feis.htm
http://www.mta.info/capconstr/sas/documents/feis/chapter03.pdf
http://www.mta.info/capconstr/sas/ea.htm

The MTA says that Phase I of the Second Avenue subway will open in December 2016.
Previous announced completion dates can be found on this link:
http://thelaunchbox.blogspot.com/2009/01/announced-completion-dates.html

Lots of additional information on the project can be found on the Launch Box blog, on this link:
http://thelaunchbox.blogspot.com/

ralphmon - you misunderstand the descriptions in the documents that you posted. FEIS Chapter 3 says that limited cut and cover will be required for station entrances but that the 86th Street station will be mined, not built by cut and cover. The EA for the 86th St station (http://www.mta.info/capconstr/sas/documents/ea/03%20Construction.pdf) confirms this, adding that cut and cover will also be required for the access shafts from the surface to the station cavern (as decribed in my previous post). For anyone who is interested, such shafts can already be seen at 72nd St and 69th St, at the northern and southern ends of the future 72nd St station. For the 86th Station, this confines the worst of the construction to the NW corner of 86th and 2nd (stations entrance and shaft) and the corner of 83rd and 2nd (entrance on NW corner, not sure about shaft). The 100 dump trucks estimate looks about right, as the EA foresees up to 60-70 to take away mining spoils and 50 to deliver construction materials each day. Importantly, 86th to 83rd in 2nd Ave will NOT be demolished and there will NOT be secant and slurry walls constructed (unlike at the 91st-96th St launch box, which was built by cut and cover and was, and is, a god-awful mess).

Sorry, NW corner of 86st and 2nd should be NE corner

newbuyer - latest update posted by MTA - http://www.mta.info/capconstr/sas/documents/2011_Feb%2015_Final.pdf.

Pictures of the 72nd St and 69th St shafts give you a sense of what will be in front of those buildings the next few years. Other slides seem to indicate that shaft excavation is under way at the south end of the 86st station (I think the location is the NW corner of 83rd and 2nd) and that it is coming soon to the north end of the station (btw 86th and 87th on 2nd)

thanks, will absolutely take a look.

Yorkshire Towers suing over Second Avenue subway:

http://www.dnainfo.com/20110216/upper-east-side/upper-east-side-building-sues-mta-over-planned-subway-entrances

National Yorkshire Pudding Day was February 7th.

As for the apartment building, the City should by all means revoke the Yorkshiremen's dual curbcuts so that their circular drive will not pose any threat to the many thousands of subway patrons who will enter there every day.

I had heard Yorkshire's pool is under the circular drive. Is that true?

Alan --

Your post sent me off to the Internet Google Machine, where I found the following:

http://www.recipes4us.co.uk/About%20British%20Yorkshire%20Pudding%20Day.htm

I was not aware of the proliferation of national food days in the US. (I am hoping that estimable wiener has been given the 4th of July.) But I did enjoy the end of the above article:

"As intimated above, British Yorkshire Pudding Day is not meant to be some sort of serious nationalistic statement with sinister undertones. It is merely a day set aside when everyone, be they British or not, can remember, enjoy and celebrate the joys of an age-old recipe."

I actually like it when holidays make a "serious nationalistic statement with sinister undertones." Like Presidents' Day.

Sidelinesitter-

Thank you so much for your valuable information and analysis. I am looking at an apartment on the 11th floor of 303 East 83rd. I don't really mind much what happens street level but need a quiet apartment to sleep in. Like you said, right now it looks like they are relocating utilities in this area.

Do you think that with the type of construction being done and planned at this location that there is potential for a lot of jackhammering/noise at the 11th floor level over the next year?

Thanks