How to Bust Unions: Wisconsin Edition

columbiacounty: "what would your advice (or your trusted friend or relative) been to someone who was 68 in february of 2008?"

The question should be what was my advice to her when she was 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, AND 60, not when she was 68. The answers will depend on her age, her income, tolerance for risk, and her expectations at retirement.

sunday, my dad did something similar too. but his house cost $16k in 1973, he paid cash (profit from an earlier sale that was boosted by an inheritance), he had two pensions and social security. and he had EXCELLENT health care that came with his first pension.

how many people can do that now? that's the point. yes, everyone should. but how many can? and of those who can, how many understand the need to?

we are definitely on the same page here as to what is optimal, but we're not in terms of what is possible.

i guess i should have said probable.

We should have a politician lead us in a lengthy dialogue.

sunday...it really doesn't matter what happens until you get close to and then enter retirement. however much you may have amassed, if you lose half, and you have no way to earn more--what would you do? ride it down?

come on. get real.

Maybe a politician can help us with a lengthy dialogue leading to something that is fair.

My point?... People who do not save, plan, or expect high return on low risk do not deserve a good retirement; in most case, their retirement will be worse than they expected. Those who save (live within their means), plan, and not unrealistic expectation of high return and low risk will have a good retirement even if they do not manage their retirement accounts actively, as long as the portfolio is diversified. That is still possible now.

hey...you need to believe this. i wish you well. i suspect that there are many years before you enter retirement. hope it works out for you and you don't have the misfortune that so many have experienced (through no fault of their own) in the last few years.

columbiacounty, you are missing the point that most people did not lose half or that losing half was not inevitable. People's account recovered. One does not/should not liquidate their accountd on the day they retire.

no...you're missing the point.

picture yourself in retirement. picture your nestegg (excuse me your portfolio) being cut in half. picture that is all the money you will ever have.

now what?

a lot of people lost their nerve and cashed out. after years of doing the right thing. years and years of doing the right thing. they cased out because they were scared.

scared.

can you understand that?

sunday, most people are not good at planning. they're just not. and i'd think that about 50% of our population going forward really doesn't have any savings option, at least now. i sincerely hope that things get better, but most people are screwed.

how do you save if you're in the 17ish% of un or underemployed?

you clearly need to believe in a world that if you do the so called right thing, the right thing will happen for you.

it doesn't always work like that.

but i suspect you need to live longer to understand.

columbiacounty, I know you are sincere. I also understand that some people did lose a lot of money due to no fault of their own. Many did not have trusted friend/relative who could have helped them plan better. I do not mean to sound like I believe things are black and white. I am really writing about what is possible...

>it doesn't always work like that.

Can a politician help by starting a lengthy dialogue?

It is possible to live to 100. I just came back from a family celebration for my aunt who turned 100.

It doesn't tell us anything about average life expectancy.

Good for you.

You mitigate that with proper diversification and do not make irrational/fear driven decisions. Allocate to less risky funds as you get closer to retirement.
------------------

You shift away form risky high returning assets into safer more stable ones as retirement gets closer. There's an old rule called invest (100-your age) into stocks, the remainder bonds. You get older you put more into fixed income(better yet safe AAA funds with low duration). As you get nearer to retirement you shift from growth to capital preservation.

for what it's worth, and it's not much, this is what every old rich person whose brains i've tried to pick about this stuff has told me

LucilleIsStupidAndShouldStayOutOfAdultDiscussions

columbiacountyIsInLalaLand

every old rich person whose brains you've tried to pick has the luxury of coasting on safe, low-risk, low-return investments ... the rest feel too far behind the 8-ball as they approach retirement age, and feel they must take on more risk if they have any hope at all of outliving their funds.

LucilleIsStupidAndShouldStayOutOfAdultDiscussions

lucille has more than proven her talent for "adult" discussions. what are you wearing?
and if one listens and learns from old rich people who, if nothing else, had the aptitute to remain rich into their old age, doesn't that make one the opposite of stupid?

ar, most people cannot do/file their own taxes, that does not mean their tax are not done/file correctly. They might not be able to take advantage of every loophole/tax shelter like you, but I think that is ok.

alanhart: "...as they approach retirement age, and feel they must take on more risk if they have any hope at all of outliving their funds."

How many of them work on cutting down on their expenses?

a lot of people lost their nerve and cashed out. after years of doing the right thing. years and years of doing the right thing. they cased out because they were scared.

that includes you, right? was it summer of 09 that you said "we are all cash as of'' some time then? see, i'm not stupid, i just remembered that off the top of my head. but perhaps you made a bad call?

Wait a minute, columbiacounty's bitterness is simply because he sold at the bottom and blames everyone else?

Lucille you would do well to re read AH's post twenty times and than report back.

wtf does alan know? he's tripping on salvia.

How many Hail Mary's and Our Father's?

Lucille

How d o you feel about hfscomm1?

Lucille, alanhart is harmless. columbiacounty, on the other hand, lost all of his money by selling at the low point and remaining in all cash, and remains in Lala land expecting a politician to "begin a lengthy dialogue" to help him out of his predicament.

Hfscomm1

Poor columbiacounty, poor poor columbiacounty

adult discussions, cc. remember?

Poor columbiacounty boy

You still haven't told us your thoughts about hfscomm1.

poor poor pathetic columbiacounty boy

Mister politician, please help poor columbiacounty boy. He's a victim

i always liked him and i always said so. his beef with the rest of you had nothing to do with me.

Why do you admire him?

poor sad columbiacounty. Only 1/5th the intellect of alanhart, 1/10th the testosterone of w67thstreet

(and about the same fraction of estrogen as aboutready)

Why do you think he needs to maintain so many different identities?

poor columbiacounty, sold at the bottom, dim upstairs, little "down there"

i don't know and i don't care. but are his many identities worse than your single unpleasant identity? you do recall calling me a pos, a pig and other bad things like an hour ago, right?

I'm sorry, but what "many identities"?

but please don't lose focus. columbiacounty should have a special department at 311 just for his poor pathetic self

Of course I doand I stand by that.

But what kind of cretin creates hundreds of anonymous identities just to talk to himself?

Help, Mr. Politician, please help feeble columbiacounty.

hunter, keep up, we're talking about hfcomm. not you.

Hfscomm1 seems very threatened.

Why are you having a conversation with a feeble minded, feeble bodied, pathetic little man who WANTS to be a ward of the state?

what kind of cretin speaks the way you do to people with whom you disagree about something? and maybe this is naivea and silly, but you know i'm a woman, a mother. and you call me all those things for no reason. what is wrong with you?

Even if there were an occasion to use it, does Medicaid cover columbiacounty's ED medicines?

You bring it on yourself and of course you know that.

But what of hfscomm1?

I still don't understand how you can admire him.

Poor poor columbiacounty boy, sold at the bottom, dim upstairs, little "down there"

Doesn't hfscomm1 remind you of your children?

i bring what on myself? what are you talking about? you and w67 are the only people here who speak that way. you are both disgusting.

Poor pathetic columbiacounty, only 1/5th the intellect of alanhart, 1/10th the testosterone of w67thstreet, 1/10th the estrogen of aboutready, and sold his equities at the bottom but expects a politician to help him out with a "lengthy dialogue".

How do you feel about the hundreds of horrible things that hfscomm1 has said?

poor columbiacounty boy, so hurt, such a victim, beyond the point of pride.

how do you feel about the horrible things you have said?

What was it like? You remember. That day. That day that you went from a proud man, who was still fighting despite being little "down there" and dim upstairs, that day that you realized you made the worst decisions, selling at the bottom, and that there was nothing to hang on to. That day you lost any sense of pride, any reason to be proud. And became you, columbiacountyboy.

columbiacounty, when you went to your aunt's 100th birthday, were you afraid that you'd have to live that long?

Lucille...what horrible things?

You are an insipid wannabe.

That's the truth.

Paging the politicians! Paging the politicians! Please help feeble pathetic columbiacounty with a "lengthy dialogue" that can regain him his manhood, pride, and money.

what do i wannbe

Everything that you clearly aren't.

A pathetic man with nothing?

??

poor pathetic dimwitted columbia

Lol

aboutready still fails to believe in individual responsibility. It isn't that difficult to select a diversified mix of mutual funds for your 401(k). Review your allocation 2-4 times a year and rebalance when necessary. Presto.

LICC, perhaps you are giving a bit too much responsibility to the average American.

LICcomm still fails to believe in Jesus Christ, our lord and savior, son of God, king of all kings. It isn't all that difficult to repeating the ideological ramblings of crazed lunatics. Paste and otherwise regurgitate from a few deplorable websites. Bumperstickers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g71XHjH-37M

I stand corrected ... to *repeat*

Socialist said- "A teacher or subway employee should really be making more than a govt lawyer because they are unionized....totally justified!"

Somebody did not do their research....

Job Title: Attorney-Advisor (PU)
Agency: Federal Communications Commission

SALARY RANGE: $123,758.00 - $155,500.00 /year "

I dont care what that says- I speak from firsthand experience- for NY.

I have two friends who are ADA in an outerbourgh- they make about $75k/year each- got their law degrees and passed the bar about 8 years ago.

5 of my other friends who are all teachers- in NYC, Westchester, and LI- various parts ALL have higher salaries than my ADA friends.

Sorry, but that is totally unjustified. They ALL previously worked in the private sector and decided to be teachers so they could have better pay and benefits. A couple of them turned to teaching after not finding ANY jobs at all in the private sector.

And you dont have to pay teachers $100-150k/year - many on LI and in Westchester make that to have a premium education-

Alberta has the best education system among English speaking countries and they top out at less than NYC teachers

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/01/06/kevin-libin-alberta-schools-apple-of-u-k-%E2%80%99s-eye/

http://local38.teachers.ab.ca/SiteCollectionDocuments/Local38.teachers.ab.ca/Documents/Salary%20Allowance%20Rates%202010%20Sept.pdf

"I have two friends who are ADA in an outerbourgh- they make about $75k/year each- got their law degrees and passed the bar about 8 years ago."

Subway workers don't make $75k a year. Congratulations, you just contradicted yourself. Top pay for a condcutor is $28 an hour and top pay for a train operator is $31. Tell me how that adds up to $75k.

"Alberta has the best education system among English speaking countries and they top out at less than NYC teachers"

What's the cost of living in Alberta compared to the COL in NYC?

oh, and after comparing the Alberta salaries and NYC salaries side by side, the difference in pay between the two is microscopic. Alberta tops out at $94,000 and NYC $100,000. Adjust for cost of living and the fact that Alberta teachers don't pay a dime for their single payer healthcare, the ALberta teachers make more money.

http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/EDDB658C-BE7F-4314-85C0-03F5A00B8A0B/0/salary.pdf

I'm really glad Socialist posts here, because he clearly shows how out in left field the liberals are.

A train operator, which is a far easier job than an ADA, gets $50k plus per year AND overtime. An ADA makes $75k. Socialist thinks this makes sense??

what happened to poor old columbiacounty?

what do you think makes sense?

Yes socialist- An ADA is not a subway conductor- its an Assistant District Attorney- a LAWYER.

Also Alberta has excess tax revenues and no provincal taxes because of the abundance of oil- they arent overtaxing ordinary citizens. And in general in all of canada salaries typcially top out at about 75k.. And they rank #10 in the world in education vs. the US which is way down there.

Alberta, Canada? Can you get a direct flight there? How is it relevant to New York?

How is an ADA an easier job that a trian operator? If a train operator scres up, hundreds of people can die. What happens if an ADA screws up?

Why are we comparing subway workers to ADAs again?

I love it how everyone here loves to bash "overpaid" govt. workers, yet NONE of you are quitting your jobs to become one. What's the matter? You can't pass an 8th grade level civil service exam?

The U.S. ranks lower than Canada in education because we have a large, poor immigrant population that does not speak English and refuses to learn. There, I said it. Come and get me PC police.

Right- Canada has no immigrants who come and live there and dont speak English. If our curriculum and teachers are at the bottom of the barrel its because of the immigrants.

And the trains practically run themselves. When the guy who was the conductor on my train this morning announced we were being rerouted he could barely put the sentance together- so of course the uneducated subway conductors should be making more than an attorney!!

And we were not comparing subway workers to ADAs- you thought an ADA was a subway worker.

Yeah, the specialized high schools in NYC are filled with illiterate immigrants who cannot do basic math.

Meanwhile STRS Ohio (Ohio's teacher retirement fund) with like 100 billion is assets just bought most of the commercial space at 15 Union Square West.
Please leave Canada where it belongs, a 51st state.

When a liberal like Cohen criticizes the public unions, you know things have gotten out of control:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/21/AR2011022103775.html

In New York City, the No. 2 guy in the fire department retired on a pension worth $242,000 a year. In New York State, a single official holding two jobs and one pension took in $641,000. A lieutenant with the Port Authority police retired with an annual pension of $196,767, and 738 of the city's teachers, principals and such have pensions worth more than $100,000 a year. Their former employer, it goes almost without saying, is steamed. Their former employer is me.

These examples of pension obesity were culled from the local newspapers, which never fail to shock with revelations of how good life is for those who once worked for the city, the state or any one of several public agencies. In some cases, retirement came a mere 20 or so years after first reporting to HR and, if you were lucky enough to fake a disability - oh, my aching back! - the sky is virtually the limit. Fully one-third of all New York City cops who retired during a recent 17-month period did so on disability. They have dangerous jobs, we all know - but not nearly as dangerous as Long Island Rail Road workers. Almost all of them retired on disability. All aboard!

I pause now to assert my bona fides. I got my first union card while still in college and remained a member of the Newspaper Guild throughout my career, paying dues even when I no longer had to. I can whistle union ditties, and I swell with pride at the ancient picture of my grandfather, posed with his good friend, the union organizer. I know, too, what happens when unions are weak or nonexistent. Capitalism is cruel. Do not look for charity.

But, really, enough is enough. . . .

But to a large degree, the damage has been done. Last year, David Brooks of the New York Times - with appropriate credit to Jonathan Rauch of the National Journal - pointed out that state and local governments are so indebted to their workers in pension and other obligations that they have little money for anything else. He gave some examples: California state police often retire at age 50 with 90 percent of their salary. Corrections officers in that state earn $70,000 in base salary. New York City, the home office of featherbedding, supports 10,000 cops who retired before the age of 50.

These figures account for why the Obama White House has exhibited its usual robust indecisiveness toward the Wisconsin demonstrators. It needs labor's political muscle, but it must also recognize that it cannot appear on the wrong side of greed. It was one thing when unions went after giant corporations run by guys who played golf at restricted clubs. But when it comes to government workers, we are the boss and we pay the bill. To quote what Sam Spade told the woman he loved in the "The Maltese Falcon," "I won't play the sap for you." When it comes to public-sector unions, my sentiments exactly.

Yes- all those poor govt union workers. Feel so bad for them with their $100k++ pensions and benefits most of the real middle class dont have.

Meanwhile, the real poor and/or middle class like workers at a marble company i know- make $10/hr, bust their backs by the time their 40 and cant work anymore (marble is VERY heavy)have no healthcare, and no benefits. Those are the ones that could really need a union.

Here's a list of LI teachers/administrators, etc who have more than $100k in pensions. There are over 1,000 of them- and its growing.

http://longisland.newsday.com/templates/simpleDB/?pid=162

Show me a list of non-union people "earning" $1 million or more a year. They're more of a burden on those marble workers' backs than the stones they carry.

"How is an ADA an easier job that a trian operator? If a train operator scres up, hundreds of people can die. What happens if an ADA screws up?"

Oh jeez, what a moron. FIrst off, if the train operator screws up, nobody dies. The trains are now being controlled by computers. The max speed is controlled. Braking is controlled. You don't even need the train operator - they're only still there because of the unions. They press the pedal, but it is overriden by a computer.

Second, whether people die or not doesn't make things easy or hard. That is just poor logic.

"The U.S. ranks lower than Canada in education because we have a large, poor immigrant population that does not speak English and refuses to learn. There, I said it. Come and get me PC police."

No one cares that you are not pc... we only care that you are a complete idiot.

You are not a poor immigrant who doesn't speak English, right?

So what's your excuse?

"The trains are now being controlled by computers."

Only on the L line bozo. That's it. One single line.

And an FYI: I know more about the aubway than everyone here combined. Probably more than I should know. So if you want to have a debate about it, go right ahead. I have no problem embarassing you.

I feel compelled to let everyone that I know more about Subway than anyone else here. I know which bread is freshest; I know the calorie counts; I know the grade for each shop. If you want to try and get a better sandwich than me, go for it. But, unless your name is Jared, I will embarass you.

Socialist, IMHO, a lot of the anger against unions is the view, rightly or wrongly, that they aren't willing to share in the pain. Many people in the private sector are earning less that they did a couple of years ago, have seen their 401k's hit and they have to deal with it. However, these people see state/city/municipal employees retiring after 20-25 years on the job with a defined benefit plan, and their taxes are paying for these pensions, the perceived inequity is troubling. Hey, if you're holding a march to complain about the top 0.50% of the people holding whatever outsized proportion of the wealth they hold, I'll join you, but there as to be some give back as well.

Many govt. workers have had to pay more for pensions and healh care over the years. Many have been laid off or furloughed.

This whole premise that if private sector workers suffer govt. workers must also suffer makes no sense. Govt. workers are not the reaon private sector workers lost their job or saw their wages cut. Private sector workers should take up their complaints with the management of their own companies. Making govt. workers suffer won't add a diem to the incomes of private sector workers.