RE experts: What does "no longer available" mean?

When an apartment in the sales column is listed as "no longer available", it means just that. If it's a new condo and investor-friendly apartments may get sold from the floorplans. That's why a new condo would seem to have a large number of units sold just after the public offering.

No developer would ever show a unit as not avilable if it actually was available.

I believe it means that the listing was pulled without a more meaningful state for StreetEasy to parse. Sometimes, stale listings that are still available get tagged because they have not been updated in some time per REBNY rules.

NYCREagent, there are many units in new developments that are marked "no longer available" and then re-listed a year or two later. Were you being sarcastic and I missed the joke?

hey scott.

are you kidding?

http://www.bondnewyork.com/nyc_apartment_listing_109844.htm

Thanks, NYCREAgent. But if an apartment were sold from the floorplan, wouldn't it show simply as sold?

Thanks, too, inonada, though I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying that some apartments are shown as sold when perhaps they were sold, but aren't any longer, thus they end up in the sold column on Streeteasy when in fact they're actually back on the market?

When you look at listings for individual apartments in new developments, they often show that an apartment has been taken off and put back on the market more than once, usually with a change of price. I was wondering if developers put apartments in the "no longer available" category because they're not happy with the offers they're getting, but want to wait till the market is better to put them back up for sale.

There are several reasons; in my case, the broker put No longer available until both the seller and I signed the contract, then she changed it to In Contract, and eventually Sold.

I wasn't being sarcastic at all.

Say I'm selling a studio facing a dumpster for $4 million. A few months pass, and no one has shown any interest. So I pull the listing, and StreetEasy sees that it's no longer around. No reason is given: unlike "in contract" or "sold", there is no "I overpriced this turkey, no one is willing to pay buy this POS for the price I was asking" category. So it shows up an "no longer available".

This studio, is it the analog to columbiacounty's real poor pathetic impotent life?

redpoppy-
there could me many reasons-
1) they had a unit listed, it got stale so they switched it up by putting that one "no longer available" and brought on different units (see 650 Sixth for example)
2) any price increase the developer needs dept. of buildings sign off, so perhaps they make it "no longer available" as they are submitting an amendment to increase price.
3) I disagree with NYCREAgent,--developers put things "off market" often so that there will not be as many available listings to choose from for a buyer.

Two questions:

So, what about listings that say "temporarily off market" ?
What was that classification intended for and why would a broker intentionally enter that status on the apartment when he no longer has the listing?

The other question is about the concept of "stale" listings and the practice of de-listing then re-listing as technique to give the appearance of a new listing.

With the advent of websites like Streeteasy isn't this practice obsolete?
I mean, you come here and everything is transparent. People can see the history of any apartment very easily. At least what the broker wants us to see.

I'll chime in...

It could be a number of things:

1. The broker simply changed the status to Off-Mkt. In our ROLEX sharing system, that can meet a status change to POTM (perm off the market), or TOTM (temp off the market)

2. An OFF EXCLUSIVE status update occurred in ROLEX. This happens when internal listing expiration dates are hit (EVEN IF THE LISTING WAS RENEWED or IN CONTRACT and expired before closing)..I see a bunch of CSGN listings that show as NO LONGER AVAIL because of the internal rolex trigger of OFF EXCL

3. Developers can take listings off the market for variety of reasons..Manipulation of inventory, deal with current verbal offer to stop marketing while due diligence is conducted, stale and needs to refresh, pending offering plan amendment filing with atty general, etc..

4. ROLEX sharing issues between vendor and distribution hub. Yes it happens and it was a HUGE challenge for us when we first started data mining back in late 2009 to build analytic tools. I see listings that switch 2-3x a day between ACTIVE & OFF MKT and the broker doesnt even know. Its a vendor error in the sharing process that leads to status changes not authorized by the listing agent.

As a broker, I see lots of things on the inside of this industry and how the sharing system operates. Non brokers just see the results, and are left to wonder why? SE did an amazing job aggregating data and making sense of it in a user friendly way. They solved the MLS problem in Manhattan and lack of transparency for listing histories. But there is still work to do on a industry wide level to make the sharing system up to todays standards and to do something about data integrity breaches as they occur. For now, its up to sites like SE to scrub the junk out on their own and for UrbanDigs Chart tools to do the same to make sense of the fresh stuff and work around the nooks and crannies of the system.

Here is an example:

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/193312-condo-411-east-53rd-street-sutton-place-new-york

This listing actually entered contract July 29th, 2010 and closed Aug 26, 2010. But likely due to one of the items I noted before, status changed to NO LONGER AVAIL, instead of CONTRACT SIGNED, prior to closing.

I meant it when I said building algorithms to properly data mine 35m internal broker status updates to build a real time analytic platform that was as close to accurate as possible, was a gargantuan challenge. SE did an amazing job but the issues out there to fix are huge and ongoing. Considering that, and what I saw in the 12 months of data mining, SE did an amazing job for all of us here.

andwin -- "TOM" is for a number of reasons. Remember that it, like all status settings, is OWNER-dictated.

The most common is that there's a holiday -- i.e., the owner is using the apartment as a pied-a-terre, and is in for two weeks for Xmas, and doesn't want to be bothered with showings, or that there's a tenant who has been fairly good about granting access but has a houseguest and doesn't want to be bothered to clean up.

Another possibility is a renovation -- agent lists the apartment, five people see it & they all say "bleech, that bathroom" -- so agent convinces the owner to put in a new bath and TOMs the listing while the reno is being done.

A third possibility is an owner with a new baby -- they list while they're pregnant, the apartment doesn't sell quickly, and they want to keep it on the market but TOM it for a month while they deal with new-baby chaos.

Finally, standard exclusive period is six months but sometimes apartments don't sell during that time, so the first broker's six-month exclusive expires and the owner TOMs it while he/she auditions the second broker.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Ali, I think the 'new baby chaos' lasts more than a month... In fact, some people swear it goes on for about 18 years ;-)

Urbandigs,
Thanks for the reply. I didn't know about the OFF EXCLUSIVE status. Never saw that on SE.
Does anyone have any examples on SE that shows a status of "OFF EXCLUSIVE"?

But my question was specifically about the reason to even have a Temporarily Off Market status. Either it's off market or it's on.
What right does a broker have to decide what the apartment owners future plans are?
Maybe the owner doesn't want to have a permanent public profile that says Temp Off Mkt.
Let people refer to ACRIS if they want to snoop.

And I'm still curious about the concept of de and re-listing when everything is supposed to be out in the open anyway. Isn't that an antiquated tactic now?

Front_Porch,

I have a client who decided to remove her apartment from the market and the broker used the "Temp Off Mkt" status without asking her. In fact he knew that she had changed her mind about selling.

Here are two other examples - I'm not showing her listing for the sake of privacy.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/193299-coop-300-west-23rd-street-chelsea-new-york

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/343929-coop-66-west-84th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

If there's a reason the client does not want to show at an open house then just don't schedule any.
If you have any examples of listings that illustrate the Holiday, Renovation or Baby theory I'd like to see them. All of the ones that I've come across appear to be the broker tagging the listing with the Temp Off Mkt status on his way out the door.

And as I mentioned to UD, if an exclusive expires what right does the broker have to publicly list the status as Temp Off mkt? Especially if the owner does not want to publicly disclose that the apartment did not sell. "No Longer Available" is the only fair and discrete expression of the listing status. Let the data miners go to ACRIS.

How about a show of hands from the sellers out there who took their apartment off the market:

Did your broker ask you how you would like the status of your apartment to appear?

Andwin, I can't speak for other agents' behavior vis-a-vis their clients, only for my own.

However, here's an example that I know of because it was my sale: 420 West 23rd #2C -- listed by me (for a client who I met on streeteasy) in Spring 2009, TOM in Summer 2009 for two months as the family welcomed a new baby, sold and closed by me Spring 2010.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

"What right does a broker have to decide what the apartment owners future plans are? "

None. The owner calls the shots, and the broker SHOULD service their wishes. Whether it works that way all the time, is a different story. And the broker does advise the client, so if the owner wants OFF, but the broker sways them, it can stay on. Still, its the owners call

Our unit went from "in contract" to "no longer available" after we closed but before the sale was recorded. The day after closing, the brokerage web site switched from "in contract" to "sold." Streeteasy web site switched from "in contract" to "no longer available." When the recorded sale showed up in ACRIS, then "no longer available" switched to "sold."

lad - sounds like an OFF EXCL triggered that change, but thats just my opinion. I see that also here on SE.

Ali,
The example that you gave is the classic de-listed (no longer available) then re-list at lower price scenario that I referred to earlier. It states that the listing was "no longer available" after 4 months and then re-listed at a 7% discount. Regardless if it was due to a baby or a price correction it's still not an example of "Temporarily OFF" status. Just compare your listing with the ones that I posted.
As I said before, "No Longer Available" is the only thing that needs to be said regardless of the sellers intentions. If it is in fact sold then come back after closing and call it sold - even if the price is hidden from those who are not "insiders".

I'd still like to see a "Temp Off" that came back with the same Broker.

Urbandigs,
This isn't a question of a broker "swaying" the client - it's a question of a broker unilaterally tagging a listing as "Temporarily Off Market" rather than "No Longer Available" as the relationship ends.
If you or Ali have any listings that you placed into Temp Off and then YOU came back to finish the sale I'd really like to see it.

lad,
I was actually looking for examples of sellers who decided to remove their listing rather than someone who sold. I'd like to see if their broker actually talked to them about the public status of their listing. Your situation seems pretty reasonable and normal. Ali suggested that the client dictates the public listing status even if they decide to cancel the listing. I'm saying that's not always the case. I'm betting that there's no one out there who cancelled a listing or let it expire and was asked by their broker how they wanted the listing to be publicly classified.

"Urbandigs, This isn't a question of a broker "swaying" the client - it's a question of a broker unilaterally tagging a listing as "Temporarily Off Market" rather than "No Longer Available" as the relationship ends. "

There is NO "No Longer Avail" broker status update in the ROLEX sharing system. That is a SE tag. I explained some reasons why a listing would be switched to NO LONGER AVAIL, here on SE. But you must understand that there is no such status option for REBNY brokers. Clearly the SE tag of NO LONGER AVAIL, applies to multiple situations where the listing is no longer marketed by the exclusive listing agent/firm.

The status options we do have for switch an ACTIVE listing to off market are:

1. TOTM - temp off market
2. POTM - perm off market

Outside of that, a status of:

3. OFF EXCL - can be triggered

Outside of that, a status of:

4. CLOSED

can all take an ACTIVE listing off market. How a data aggregator site like streeteasy handles all the different status changes, for sake of ease for the user, is a separate issue not related to internal REBNY sharing processes and rules.

i've been told it can also mean the potential buyer has requested that the listing be removed before they go to contract.

andwin,

in my database I called that listing a TOM... I did not, for example, know when I took it off that it would come back at a lower price. That was a decision that the individual sellers made .. and how streeteasy translates TOM, it's not up to me.

In addition to the categories digs pointed out, there's one more thing that can happen to a listing, which is that it can be rented. That creates a kind of shadow listing -- if it were our listing, and the owner rented it, after consultation with the owner we would POM it, but the local brokerage community might "know" that the owner had a tenant in and was eventually looking for a sale.

I'm concerned that when you interpret these actions as malign, you're making agents lose either way here. If we transmit absolutely every mood of the owners to the microsecond, then we're indicted as middlemen who aren't needed. If we accumulate knowledge by studying our micromarkets, then we're somehow not being transparent.

I know a lot of agents are awful -- I come up against the bad ones probably more than you do -- but a lot of people in the real estate community are pretty good at their jobs of helping people buy and sell real estate.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Urbandigs wrote:
There is NO "No Longer Avail" broker status update in the ROLEX sharing system. That is a SE tag ... Clearly the SE tag of NO LONGER AVAIL, applies to multiple situations where the listing is no longer marketed by the exclusive listing agent/firm.The status options we do have for switch an ACTIVE listing to off market are:
1. TOTM - temp off market 

2. POTM - perm off market
3. OFF EXCL - can be triggered
4. CLOSED
How a data aggregator site like streeteasy handles all the different status changes, for sake of ease for the user, is a separate issue not related to internal REBNY sharing processes and rules.."

Interesting, as far as SE is concerned there should be no need for anything other than SOLD and No Longer Available with respect to #1, 2 & 3. Any other distinction is presumptuous and may not reflect the owners wishes or intentions. It also seems odd that REBNY would not allow for a generic No Longer Available status. No one but the owner can say for sure that their apartment is POTM or TOTM and any other expression is irresponsible at best, malicious at worst.
I'm guessing that there is a good deal of human interaction in addition to any automated "data aggregation" on SE and ROLEX.

At any rate, virtually ALL of the TEMP OFF MKT listings that I've come across appear to be at the end of the brokers exclusive listing.
And That is simply wrong.