1212 Fifth Avenue

The building was a beautiful 1926 with 70 units, 15 floors plus a penthouse. The top floor was originally a duplex rented by Dutch Schultz. All plaster walls, sconce lighting, butler/servant bells, Otis elevators, and mail chutes available outside each unit. Mount Sinai sold it for chump change along with the air rights for the block to allow the developer to build a sliver tower to the east of 1212.

1212's remaining tenants (rentcontrolled) were bought out and the entire building was gutted. The plaster walls are being replaced with drywall. The steam heat and cast iron radiators are being replaced with noisy HVAC units. The mail chutes were ripped out and the Otis elevators are being replaced. All of the original oak hardwood floors with cherry perimeters were torn out. The original hardwood doors were removed and tossed out. The heated bathrooms with natural light, all with pedestal sinks and subway tile, are being replaced with contemporary fixtures in unheated windowless rooms. The kitchens with built-in wood cabinets will be replaced with run-of-the-mill high end contemporary appliances and cabinetry. All that will remain is the brick exterior, and since all the eastern light will be gone, tenants above the 12th floor facing west will be the only ones with a view of any kind. (Below 12, all they'll see is a tree across the street).

So yes, it's a rental to condo conversion, but there will be no remnants of the original 1920s magnificence.

I think it looks pretty intriguing. Will have to see how they price it.

LOL at twinco's post and lrc666's response.

That is a funny responce...
Irc666 might be reading but not comprehending.
Very common problem.

ya know twinco, the new hvac units are a lot less noisy than the steam heaters which clang and hiss all the time so, dont knock the new hvac technology that this building is recieving. This is modern day looks, not 1920 magnificence. This building still holds on to its vitality as it did through the years. Oh and FYI, this building is LEED certified, which means that the Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design has recognized that the developer was able to turn this oil burning, energy wasting building into a energy efficient, clean running (no boilers), all sustaining material building where it will be place where it can be remembered as a "family oriented place to live"....

let me know if you want some more information on 1212 5th ave, ill be more than happy to fill you in on this project.....

they're also giving the buyer a choice of four different wood floors and the ceiling in the lobby is a 1920 reminance.....fyi

I want more info on this building! I am looking for a3 bed and I like the b line. How much are they going to start at? 1000psf?

You can either wait for a salesperson to notice your question here, or ask at http://www.1212fifthavenue.com/contact

It's bad enough that stately buildings were gutted over the years to pander to our new crop of buyers, but Fifth Avenue? Jackie O's apartment might be a "loft like" experiance by now. As my grandmother always said: "Everyone is entitled to their own taste, as long as it's good".

3br are goin for 2.5mil and yes its 1000 psf

fyi timco, the bathroom floors are heated!!!!

oh and you can see central park lower than the 12th floor, wow timco, you are wrong in so many ways, where did you get your information from? you are seriously MIS informed my friend....

actually they are about 1400 psf with high monthlies (about 4K) on the 3 bed

Worked at Mount Sinai since the early 1960s and had many friends and colleagues in the building until the bitter end. Lived there myself for about 15 years in the 70s and 80s and remember when the beautiful front elevators were changed from Otis mahogany/brass to Marcato fiberboard crap. It was the beginning of the downfall of the building. The radiators, by the way, were quiet, and the rooms were always toasty warm through the winter without all the noise of an HVAC fan. Nice to hear of the heated bathroom floors, but what happened to the windows? Who wants a bathroom without natural light? A friend in 11E couldn't see Central Park beyond the one tree across the street that goes up to about that height. So only the top few floors get a true Park view. In any event, what 1212 is now is a new building with new content. All the 1920s grandeur has been gutted out. What a shame. New buildings are a dime a dozen. And that's what 1212 has become. Sigh.

You are right- they def lack the old 5th ave charm and at 1400-1550 PSf if is NOT worth it. They say they have many people interested, but with high monthlies, high prices and not so great location, who are these people????

With respect though twinco, this war was fought over 60 years ago. While it may be appealing to you to preserve that golden era from before that war, it may not be so for today's generation nor for the future generation who will be those who are most served by the current new developments and redevelopments. The current generation do not know the war to which you refer nor the architecture and decor which preceded it. I am not sure how many in their 20s or 30s will necessarily be looking for steam radiators, mail chutes (who writes letters anyway, some schools aren't eveen teaching writing these days), pedestal sinks and otis elevators. Foreign investors probably won't either. Times have changed and any deeveloper looking to the future is better hedging their bets on the demands of today's generation than the glories of the past. Where I think all generations would agreee though is that it a shame to get rid of (most of the) windowed bathrooms which were the rule in its prewar iteration.

It's hard to say. When I look for NYC apartments, I want plaster walls rather than drywall. Otherwise, you hear your neighbors and they hear you. Even more importantly, full plaster walls give you that rare commodity in the City - quiet - even others in your own apartment can have privacy in their room without hearing every phone call, every computer beep, and all the other sounds people make in their own homes. In looking for homes outside of NYC, I look for historic accuracy - why get a Kohler plastic tub when you can get a porcelain covered iron tub, for example? And yes, of course there are times when you want something new - I certainly like not having a pilot light on a new gas stove, or having an oven with an infrared broiler. But I also prefer old shower heads with enough output so that I actually get wet. The first thing my family does in a new home: pull the shower nozzles and remove the water restrictors, like all the families I know. So yes, "a family oriented place to live" must mean something different to the developers than to the new occupants. In my last home, a 1904 Victorian, the first thing I did after putting in old restored shower heads was to replace the toilets with restored old ones that actually flush when the handle is pulled. I also restored my wood windows rather than put in new metal. And yes, 1212 used to have beautiful 6 over 6 wood windows. Losing those was a shame, but the blame for that doesn't fall on the current developer. Ultimately, no potential occupant will say, "Gee it's so energy efficient! Let's buy it!" What they'll say is, "What a shame that they pulled out the incredible steam heat that we get from our radiators in our country home. How annoying that blower is going to be, cycling on and off all night while we try to sleep."

One thing I haven't figured out: the new blueprints don't show any back doors. All the apartments had service entrances in addition to the front door. They seem to be gone and I imagine they're no longer required. But why lose the potential escape directly into the fire stairs?

As for the location, it had its pros and cons. On the pro side, the east side up here was reasonably quiet. Until, that is, Sinai moved its garbage dump from Madison Ave to 101st Street. Once they did that, the evenings were filled with the beeping of delivery trucks and ambulances. You can, of course, hear the above-ground trains on Park Avenue, but you get used to that and the new enormity behind 1212 will block that (along with the sun and the view, both lost in the transition). To the north, 102nd used to run eastbound. It was changed to westbound a couple of years ago. In so doing, the ability for traffic to leave Fifth Avenue dissipated leading to increased traffic in the area. The noise level rose notably as a result and the City did nothing despite tenant complaints. Finally, Mount Sinai has increasingly used its political oomph to declare the area non-residential. That has allowed them to do construction projects at all hours, again despite local neighbor complaints. Don't expect that to suddenly end now that these new projects finish. Mount Sinai will never stop building - like most hospitals, it's build or die. There are no grocery stores in the area - the one on 102nd and Madison burned down long ago. The subway requires walking through the projects to the Lex IRT or across the Park to the 8th Avenue IND.

I'll be honest though....the old wiring in 1212 needed replacement - there was only one set of grounded outlets per apartment. And most apartments didn't have a washer/dryer. Lower apartments always had water damage from one source or another. So the units truly did need restoration or repair. But to have gutted what was an historic beauty - not a masterpiece, mind you, but one of the few totally intact 1920s apartment buildings left - that's just sad.

Matsui, you make interesting and valid points. I live outside the City now in an old Victorian. What I see in the neighborhood are older homes being purchased by young families - largely those who want the detail and historic interest present in an old home. What I hear repetitively from my newer neighbors is that they want lathe/plaster walls for the privacy within the household and that they are willing to give up some of the modern-day conveniences (e.g. better insulation) to achieve it. On a recent trip to Europe, I was fascinated by the number of inner city homes from the 1700s and 1800s in major cities, none of which have been rehabilitated so any significant degree. European interest tends to be to the historic and storied rather than to the contemporary. But I'm certain you're right - there will always be folks who are interested in newer materials - we see it with cars. Some are thrilled to spend $20,000 to get a totally overhauled 1966 Mustang while others will spend twice that to get a 2012 Mustang. We see it with airplanes as well where some will spend 10x more to obtain a new product while others spend 1/10 as much to get an older product that has identical (or better) performance.

My issue is not with the developer in this case. They're doing what they feel will bring them the highest potential profit. That's their business and I have no gripe with that other than the sadness that what was destroyed was irreplaceable. I haven't seen any new construction that has the hand-planed curves in the plaster that 1212 had on its ceilings where the support beams met the ceiling. And you're right - there are many who won't notice that sort of thing at all - particularly if the building is "occupied" by foreign investors looking for reasonable spots to park their cash.

The elevators are quite small as are those doors from the service staircase. Don't bring any large furniture you will never get it in the building without a hoist!

The original service elevators had both a gate and a hinged door. Grand pianos could easily be transported along the service line from which they could be moved directly into the apartments. However, within the apartments doorways were the limiting factor. A reasonable size SubZero or Wolf stove, for instance, might be built into units during the rehab but may not be able to be replaced when the time comes. The roof of the service elevator was also removable for long couches and other similar items. Again, the limiting factor was generally not the elevators. That said, I don't see the service elevators or entries into each apartment from these elevators in the new plans, so I don't know if that capability is being maintained. The A/B side and the C/D/E side main elevators (A/B was the north side and C/D/E was south) were of very different capacity. The North passenger elevator was always very small. In a rehab, I'd probably have kept the two service elevators and transform them into passenger service. They were always the better elevator in terms of capabilities.

Does anyone know the rental market for this building after its completed? i.e. how much would a one bedroom cost per month?

It seems like a really nice place to stay actually. It all depends on the price that is being sold. If the price is right, you can actually buy it as an investment or to collect rental income.
Richard - http://www.yourfurnitureonline.co.uk

thanks Richard. that was very insightful.

We just finished a project at 1212. If anyone is interested here are some photos (taken prior to finishing)

http://www.primerenovationsnyc.com/2012/04/1212-5th-avenue/