Managed by people that are only looking for a quick buck. The apartments are ok, the inconvenience is not. Here are things to look out for: 1. Watch out for management and make sure everything is documented before your move. If they can they will screw you. We called them two days ahead of our move just to check everything was fine only to learn that the previous tenants were squatting. Despite... [more]
Managed by people that are only looking for a quick buck. The apartments are ok, the inconvenience is not. Here are things to look out for:
1. Watch out for management and make sure everything is documented before your move. If they can they will screw you.
We called them two days ahead of our move just to check everything was fine only to learn that the previous tenants were squatting. Despite management negligence (they apparently “could not reach us” even though they had all our contact details), they made us rent another apartment in the building for one month, taking advantage of our disadvantage. After living out of boxes for one month, Avalon management would only pay for our second move to the apartment we originally rented but only after I raised hell and contacted company board members. Seriously, beware!
2. The elevators are a nightmare and are always broken. It can sometimes take 15 minutes to get to the lobby during the morning rush and don't be surprised to see lines snaking through the lobby when you’re coming back home from work. Management’s attitude is to NOT inform tenants and they NEVER give you a firm date when things will return to normal. It is not uncommon to see an elevator out of commission for 5-7 days.
3. The garage doors break down and are not repaired. A couple of months ago, one of the doors was broken and left open for one month, compromising security of the parking lot. Again, they never inform you when they expect it to be fixed.
4. Gym equipment is not maintained and a lot of equipment is broken. If you’re moving in and were considering canceling your gym membership, think again.
5. You’re a target of cross-selling emails from retailers. The management office won’t send out the notices you need (i.e. when things are broken) but will send you tons of BS emails, trying to cross sell you crap you don’t need.
In all, we were ok with our apartment but for the price they charge, were expecting quality service from Avalon.
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Response by jason10006
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 5257
Member since: Jan 2009
Private equity squeezing bucks
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Response by gds
over 14 years ago
Posts: 2
Member since: Nov 2010
Definitely Jason. We met some folks over the weekend that told us their security deposit was never returned, this despite treating the place with kid gloves, repainting and cleaning the unit. Apparently this is common practice and I heard that one former tenant had to threaten to take them to small claims court before Avalon returned their deposit...
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Response by licfan10
about 14 years ago
Posts: 1
Member since: Nov 2011
I would not recommend this building to anyone. The company charges an extra $600 in fees for the "amenities" on top of the already outrageous rents. In addition, they will give you a max 12 month lease at the end of which they will raise your rent over $600/month. They don't care who is living in the building as long as they can squeeze every penny possible out of them.
Outside the cost issues, there is the fact that there is no security in the building and anyone can walk in and out. Due to the high turnover in the building it is impossible for the building staff to keep track of who lives here and who doesn't and anyone can walk in at any time.
The building is outdated and the community room and gym need to be updated with new furnishings and equipment. Elevators are a constant problem since I have moved in and never seem to be working properly.
See what else there is in LIC before you rent at the Avalon Riverview North.
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Response by maggie85
almost 14 years ago
Posts: 2
Member since: Dec 2011
Avalon is charging $500 monthly increases on their rents. They will claim it's to price the apartment at market value. But as I've looked at apartments in the neighborhood, they are definitely charging at least a 15% premium. Not to mention amenity fees (which you have no choice but to pay. No other rental companies charge this). They are a publicly traded Real Estate Investment Trust (REIT). They have shareholders on wall street they have to pay out. You can read about their business model - http://bit.ly/rMlwFy
By forcing turnover in leases, they can continuously charge higher rent prices. From Timothy Naughton, President and incoming CEO, Avalon Bay,
"We've seen an increase in move-outs due to rent increases. We've been able to release vacated apartments to higher income prospects, resulting in an overall higher resident income profile with the capacity to pay higher rent.", Avalonbay Communities (AVB) Q2 2011 Earnings Call July 28, 2011 1:00 PM ET.
Because they only build and operate in markets where there are housing shortages, they can actually get away with the rent increases and lease turnovers. Their buildings have high occupancy rates as their is always someone looking for an apartment and will pay what they perceive is market rate. It doesn't matter if you are a long term tenant or someone that has resided in the building for 1 year. They squeeze all their tenants. The only way to avoid this is to avoid Avalon Bay communities all together.
Are their properties worth the price???? As a tenant in Avalon RVNorth, I would say no. I've lived through broken elevators (was stuck once with 5 other passengers and we went for a scary 5 minute ride up and down the building. The elevator wouldn't respond to any of efforts to stop it, and no one in the lobby responded to our calls. When it finally stopped, and we told the guy at the front desk, he gave us a blank stare and said he would leave a note for building maintenance. He wasn't able to take that elevator out of service though b/c other tenants needed it. It was later out of service for 2 weeks). My washer/dryer (which is the only advantage to their properties) have been broken and replaced twice. I stopped using the gym b/c the machines are always broken. The pool is too small and is on the shady side of the building. Only a few people can actually use it at any one time (although residents in both Avalon buildings have access). Half of the grills on the outdoor deck (facing Queens) are also broken. When leaving the building you have to cross over the dog pee puddles in front of the building (I don't blame the dogs - they do what they do. But the building could make efforts to hose it down...there are pee stains).
I already decided I would not renew my lease. But getting the notice of a $500 monthly increase, based on their assessment that there is great demand for NYC apartments in February (really???) was good for a laugh. The rent increase is in stark contrast to the deals that are being offered at the other LIC apartment buildings. I guess this is why they are the 1%, and the tenants are in the 99%.
For the money, you can live for less at one of the other LIC apartments, or Manhattan.
By the way, if you don't know LIC well, you should also consider the 7 train outages. They take the trains out of service for 8-12 weekends in a row (they did this twice in 2011). Can put a damper on the weekend travel.
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Response by maggie85
almost 14 years ago
Posts: 2
Member since: Dec 2011
I would NOT recommend any of the Avalon properties. They charge a premium to live in their buildings, even though there are constant problems (broken gym equipment, elevators break down, rats in the building, to name a few issues). Their rents are higher than the neighborhood, they charge a $600 amenity fee regardless of whether you will use the community amenities, send spam emails to your account from marketing companies they have deals with (like I need Avalon's endorsement of some computer company).
The best are the rent renewals. They typically hike the rents about 20%. This is around $500/month. It's a pretty ridiculous amount. Especially in this economy (in any economy). They count on high turnover because unfortunately there are plenty of people who will unwittingly come in and pay they higher rate. And for what???????
As Timothy Naughton, incoming CEO of Avalon Bay said in his Q2 Investors call, "We've seen an increase in move-outs due to rent increases. We've been able to release vacated apartments to higher income prospects, resulting in an overall higher resident income profile with the capacity to pay higher rent." Avalonbay Communities (AVB) Q2 2011 Earnings Call July 28, 2011 1:00 PM ET.
Their business model works because they only build in markets with tight rental inventor, where it's too expensive to buy a house, and thus a higher proportion of people are forced into renting. Then they charge what they define as "market rate" - which is not based on market comps. When I spoke with Melissa in the leasing office about how they determine market rate, she told me it's based on their computer models. And because they don't have a lot of inventory available in the winter months to match the number of people walking in looking for apartments, they are raising the rents on tenants to open inventory. I find this a bit odd, as everyone knows there isn't a lot of demand for apartments in the winter. There isn't an influx of new residents say, versus the summer. Not to mention that she basically admitted they want to force tenants out of the building. Kinda crappy if you ask me.
It's a successful business model. According to their Q3 investors call, they are having their most profitable year ever, with returns of 19% to their wall street investors. Not bad in a down economy (not bad in a good economy).
If you are reading this wondering if you should move into AVR or AVRN, just be prepared for the nickel and diming, the annual $500 rent increase, and all the problems in the building. Consider that before you actually pay the fees and moving costs to live their in the first place. You may find yourself having to move again.
Just got the re-newel lease increase in over $500 a month. I was warned ahead of time but didnt actually think this could happen its out Ludicris especially after hurricane sandy. We have NO amenities and management has been behind the eight ball this whole time. Elevators still don't work. No GYM no reading rooms. Place looks like a war zone down here how they expect to fill these apts at the new prices I say good luck to that. I would never pay that much.
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Response by LifetimeRenter
almost 13 years ago
Posts: 7
Member since: Dec 2012
This was THE worst apartment building and management that I have ever experienced.
-Management/Office Staff: so rude and VERY clearly do not care about you or your happiness while you are a resident.
-The building: Absolutely disgusting. Unprofessional. The "concierge" is a complete joke. They were very nice people and did their job but they are VERY CLEARLY not "doormen". They are package people. They give you your deliveries. Absolutely no security whatsoever. I've never lived in a "luxury" building that had the leasing office in your face the way Avalon does. How could anyone feel like this is their "home" when there is a leasing office right across from the front desk. There is nothing about this building that made it feel like a home. It felt like a low budget hotel.
-The Pool: I didn't see the pool when I signed my lease because it was the winter time. When I went to the pool one day I literally laughed. It was the most pathetic thing that I have ever seen.
-The deck: AGAIN. Pathetic.
-The prices: Okay....These are midtown manhattan prices. Long Island City is nice but it's NOT Manhattan. AT ALL. They charge $3,000 for one bedrooms where it should be more like $2,000. It's WAY off and you most certainly do NOT get what you pay for here.
-The Amenities Fee: Every lease term you are required to pay $600 for the amenities fee. These amenities are a joke! I am not delusional and I understand that there is a fee but STOP CHARGING MANHATTAN PRICES FOR THEM!!!
-The Water Fee: I have never had to pay for water. Ever.
-The Disposal Fee: Again... NEVER
-The non reefndable pet fee: Outrageous. Why are you taking money from me upfront for something my dog may or may not do to the apartment ... ?? Why is this non-refundable?? It doesn't even make sense! Charge me for damages when I am leaving, don't just take 500 dollars because it could happen. Disgusting.
-The monthly pet fee - Outrageous. Not unheard of but for this place with all of it's other crap? Outrageous.
-Hallways Smell
-Elevators NEVER work properly.
-Questionable tenants.
-$400 renewal increase (as IF I was planning on staying anyway)
I walked away from this place without ONE positive thing to say about it. That has never happened to me before. Don't EVER rent here or with Avalon. I don't know how this company got so big (and is currently getting bigger) but every single one of their properties is this way. Built with paper and glue and completely unjustified pricing. I would NEVER live with them again.
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Response by tony1cap
over 12 years ago
Posts: 0
Member since: Jun 2013
The rents are just getting out of control. Up another 20% this year. Every year it goes up another 20% . I'm out. Not renewing.
Elevators never work.
Lobby and courtyards smell like Dog Shit.
Pool is gross and often busy.
Gym is trash - old equipment and often broken.
No longer good views because of the new towers surrounding the building.
Will charge fees for ANYTHING and EVERYTHING.
This year they are charging $200 for a lost pool band. UNBELIEVABLE.
Not a good value. Move back to Manhattan!!!!!!
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Response by jimdarrar
over 10 years ago
Posts: 1
Member since: Aug 2012
Imagine living in a building
-infested with thousands and thousands of flies
-the trash room is usually overflowing and is sometimes not emptied out for 2 to 3 days (which doesn't help the insect situation)
-the hallway carpets are usually filthy and not vacuumed for weeks at a time
-the parking garage door is left open for months allowing intruders to enter the parking garage (I saw several trespassers)
-the parking garage elevator keeps breaking down for weeks at a time every so often forcing you to go down a urine filled stairwell with your newborn baby and stroller trying to exit through a jammed emergency exit door
-front entrance glass canopy is broken for over 6 months without any repairs made at all
-the patio has splintering aging furniture
-the outdoor deck that was promised at the lease signing is under repair for almost a year
-the bathroom ceiling that has leaked for months and you've notified maintenance several times about suddenly gives way and floods the bathroom (entirely preventable)
-maintenance leaves the bathroom a mess with the toilet plunger on top of your laundry after repairs
-the fire alarm beeps randomly the entire night for no apparent reason (even with fresh batteries)
-the front desk staff disappear for 45 min stretches allowing anyone to walk right into the building unchecked
-the leasing office staff seem to be nonchalant about these issues by refusing to acknowledge or apologize for these issues
Now imagine paying almost $5,000 for this amazing apartment with almost 20% yearly rent increases without the opportunity for negotiation.
You make your decision if you would want to subject you and your family to such human torture by a big corporation who doesn't seem to care much about its tenants. The leasing office staff are equally negligent. They could resolve these issues by harassing their corporate office about the issues. Instead they are more focused on signing new leases and keep giving random excuses on the issues without an acknowledgement or a fix.
Your family deserves better. You deserve better. Don't move here just because of a view. There are way better buildings in this neighborhood with a view.
P.S. An Avalon building complex in Edgewater, NJ had burned down with multiple injuries in part due to multiple violations. The Avalon maintenance staff who accidentally set off the fire didn't even call 911 for 15 minutes till after the fire spread, hence risking hundreds of lives. The reviews for that building were eerily similar to this building before it burned down and I just don't feel safe living here anymore after what happened to their other building due to apparent neglect. Avalon Riverview North is poorly maintained with safety violations and health hazards that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
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Response by wammerman
over 7 years ago
Posts: 0
Member since: Jul 2014
Yikes. Do not provide these people with your personal information. I went apartment hunting and filled out a credit application but didn't end up finding an apartment that fit my needs in Avalon Riverview. Almost immediately, they used my personal information and started billing me for all sorts of things like community fees even though I wasn't a tenant and didn't have any relationship with them. Obviously I didn't pay them, but they turned their made-up bills over to a collection agency to hound me relentlessly using extortionist tactics and trying to ruin my credit. It sounds crazy, but it's true. I've turned them into the BBB. Be very very very careful dealing with these unscrupulous sharks.
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Private equity squeezing bucks
Definitely Jason. We met some folks over the weekend that told us their security deposit was never returned, this despite treating the place with kid gloves, repainting and cleaning the unit. Apparently this is common practice and I heard that one former tenant had to threaten to take them to small claims court before Avalon returned their deposit...
I would not recommend this building to anyone. The company charges an extra $600 in fees for the "amenities" on top of the already outrageous rents. In addition, they will give you a max 12 month lease at the end of which they will raise your rent over $600/month. They don't care who is living in the building as long as they can squeeze every penny possible out of them.
Outside the cost issues, there is the fact that there is no security in the building and anyone can walk in and out. Due to the high turnover in the building it is impossible for the building staff to keep track of who lives here and who doesn't and anyone can walk in at any time.
The building is outdated and the community room and gym need to be updated with new furnishings and equipment. Elevators are a constant problem since I have moved in and never seem to be working properly.
See what else there is in LIC before you rent at the Avalon Riverview North.
Avalon is charging $500 monthly increases on their rents. They will claim it's to price the apartment at market value. But as I've looked at apartments in the neighborhood, they are definitely charging at least a 15% premium. Not to mention amenity fees (which you have no choice but to pay. No other rental companies charge this). They are a publicly traded Real Estate Investment Trust (REIT). They have shareholders on wall street they have to pay out. You can read about their business model - http://bit.ly/rMlwFy
By forcing turnover in leases, they can continuously charge higher rent prices. From Timothy Naughton, President and incoming CEO, Avalon Bay,
"We've seen an increase in move-outs due to rent increases. We've been able to release vacated apartments to higher income prospects, resulting in an overall higher resident income profile with the capacity to pay higher rent.", Avalonbay Communities (AVB) Q2 2011 Earnings Call July 28, 2011 1:00 PM ET.
Because they only build and operate in markets where there are housing shortages, they can actually get away with the rent increases and lease turnovers. Their buildings have high occupancy rates as their is always someone looking for an apartment and will pay what they perceive is market rate. It doesn't matter if you are a long term tenant or someone that has resided in the building for 1 year. They squeeze all their tenants. The only way to avoid this is to avoid Avalon Bay communities all together.
Are their properties worth the price???? As a tenant in Avalon RVNorth, I would say no. I've lived through broken elevators (was stuck once with 5 other passengers and we went for a scary 5 minute ride up and down the building. The elevator wouldn't respond to any of efforts to stop it, and no one in the lobby responded to our calls. When it finally stopped, and we told the guy at the front desk, he gave us a blank stare and said he would leave a note for building maintenance. He wasn't able to take that elevator out of service though b/c other tenants needed it. It was later out of service for 2 weeks). My washer/dryer (which is the only advantage to their properties) have been broken and replaced twice. I stopped using the gym b/c the machines are always broken. The pool is too small and is on the shady side of the building. Only a few people can actually use it at any one time (although residents in both Avalon buildings have access). Half of the grills on the outdoor deck (facing Queens) are also broken. When leaving the building you have to cross over the dog pee puddles in front of the building (I don't blame the dogs - they do what they do. But the building could make efforts to hose it down...there are pee stains).
I already decided I would not renew my lease. But getting the notice of a $500 monthly increase, based on their assessment that there is great demand for NYC apartments in February (really???) was good for a laugh. The rent increase is in stark contrast to the deals that are being offered at the other LIC apartment buildings. I guess this is why they are the 1%, and the tenants are in the 99%.
For the money, you can live for less at one of the other LIC apartments, or Manhattan.
By the way, if you don't know LIC well, you should also consider the 7 train outages. They take the trains out of service for 8-12 weekends in a row (they did this twice in 2011). Can put a damper on the weekend travel.
I would NOT recommend any of the Avalon properties. They charge a premium to live in their buildings, even though there are constant problems (broken gym equipment, elevators break down, rats in the building, to name a few issues). Their rents are higher than the neighborhood, they charge a $600 amenity fee regardless of whether you will use the community amenities, send spam emails to your account from marketing companies they have deals with (like I need Avalon's endorsement of some computer company).
The best are the rent renewals. They typically hike the rents about 20%. This is around $500/month. It's a pretty ridiculous amount. Especially in this economy (in any economy). They count on high turnover because unfortunately there are plenty of people who will unwittingly come in and pay they higher rate. And for what???????
As Timothy Naughton, incoming CEO of Avalon Bay said in his Q2 Investors call, "We've seen an increase in move-outs due to rent increases. We've been able to release vacated apartments to higher income prospects, resulting in an overall higher resident income profile with the capacity to pay higher rent." Avalonbay Communities (AVB) Q2 2011 Earnings Call July 28, 2011 1:00 PM ET.
Their business model works because they only build in markets with tight rental inventor, where it's too expensive to buy a house, and thus a higher proportion of people are forced into renting. Then they charge what they define as "market rate" - which is not based on market comps. When I spoke with Melissa in the leasing office about how they determine market rate, she told me it's based on their computer models. And because they don't have a lot of inventory available in the winter months to match the number of people walking in looking for apartments, they are raising the rents on tenants to open inventory. I find this a bit odd, as everyone knows there isn't a lot of demand for apartments in the winter. There isn't an influx of new residents say, versus the summer. Not to mention that she basically admitted they want to force tenants out of the building. Kinda crappy if you ask me.
It's a successful business model. According to their Q3 investors call, they are having their most profitable year ever, with returns of 19% to their wall street investors. Not bad in a down economy (not bad in a good economy).
If you are reading this wondering if you should move into AVR or AVRN, just be prepared for the nickel and diming, the annual $500 rent increase, and all the problems in the building. Consider that before you actually pay the fees and moving costs to live their in the first place. You may find yourself having to move again.
More about the Avalon Bay business model: http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/AvalonBay_Communities_(AVB)
Just got the re-newel lease increase in over $500 a month. I was warned ahead of time but didnt actually think this could happen its out Ludicris especially after hurricane sandy. We have NO amenities and management has been behind the eight ball this whole time. Elevators still don't work. No GYM no reading rooms. Place looks like a war zone down here how they expect to fill these apts at the new prices I say good luck to that. I would never pay that much.
This was THE worst apartment building and management that I have ever experienced.
-Management/Office Staff: so rude and VERY clearly do not care about you or your happiness while you are a resident.
-The building: Absolutely disgusting. Unprofessional. The "concierge" is a complete joke. They were very nice people and did their job but they are VERY CLEARLY not "doormen". They are package people. They give you your deliveries. Absolutely no security whatsoever. I've never lived in a "luxury" building that had the leasing office in your face the way Avalon does. How could anyone feel like this is their "home" when there is a leasing office right across from the front desk. There is nothing about this building that made it feel like a home. It felt like a low budget hotel.
-The Pool: I didn't see the pool when I signed my lease because it was the winter time. When I went to the pool one day I literally laughed. It was the most pathetic thing that I have ever seen.
-The deck: AGAIN. Pathetic.
-The prices: Okay....These are midtown manhattan prices. Long Island City is nice but it's NOT Manhattan. AT ALL. They charge $3,000 for one bedrooms where it should be more like $2,000. It's WAY off and you most certainly do NOT get what you pay for here.
-The Amenities Fee: Every lease term you are required to pay $600 for the amenities fee. These amenities are a joke! I am not delusional and I understand that there is a fee but STOP CHARGING MANHATTAN PRICES FOR THEM!!!
-The Water Fee: I have never had to pay for water. Ever.
-The Disposal Fee: Again... NEVER
-The non reefndable pet fee: Outrageous. Why are you taking money from me upfront for something my dog may or may not do to the apartment ... ?? Why is this non-refundable?? It doesn't even make sense! Charge me for damages when I am leaving, don't just take 500 dollars because it could happen. Disgusting.
-The monthly pet fee - Outrageous. Not unheard of but for this place with all of it's other crap? Outrageous.
-Hallways Smell
-Elevators NEVER work properly.
-Questionable tenants.
-$400 renewal increase (as IF I was planning on staying anyway)
I walked away from this place without ONE positive thing to say about it. That has never happened to me before. Don't EVER rent here or with Avalon. I don't know how this company got so big (and is currently getting bigger) but every single one of their properties is this way. Built with paper and glue and completely unjustified pricing. I would NEVER live with them again.
The rents are just getting out of control. Up another 20% this year. Every year it goes up another 20% . I'm out. Not renewing.
Elevators never work.
Lobby and courtyards smell like Dog Shit.
Pool is gross and often busy.
Gym is trash - old equipment and often broken.
No longer good views because of the new towers surrounding the building.
Will charge fees for ANYTHING and EVERYTHING.
This year they are charging $200 for a lost pool band. UNBELIEVABLE.
Not a good value. Move back to Manhattan!!!!!!
Imagine living in a building
-infested with thousands and thousands of flies
-the trash room is usually overflowing and is sometimes not emptied out for 2 to 3 days (which doesn't help the insect situation)
-the hallway carpets are usually filthy and not vacuumed for weeks at a time
-the parking garage door is left open for months allowing intruders to enter the parking garage (I saw several trespassers)
-the parking garage elevator keeps breaking down for weeks at a time every so often forcing you to go down a urine filled stairwell with your newborn baby and stroller trying to exit through a jammed emergency exit door
-front entrance glass canopy is broken for over 6 months without any repairs made at all
-the patio has splintering aging furniture
-the outdoor deck that was promised at the lease signing is under repair for almost a year
-the bathroom ceiling that has leaked for months and you've notified maintenance several times about suddenly gives way and floods the bathroom (entirely preventable)
-maintenance leaves the bathroom a mess with the toilet plunger on top of your laundry after repairs
-the fire alarm beeps randomly the entire night for no apparent reason (even with fresh batteries)
-the front desk staff disappear for 45 min stretches allowing anyone to walk right into the building unchecked
-the leasing office staff seem to be nonchalant about these issues by refusing to acknowledge or apologize for these issues
Now imagine paying almost $5,000 for this amazing apartment with almost 20% yearly rent increases without the opportunity for negotiation.
You make your decision if you would want to subject you and your family to such human torture by a big corporation who doesn't seem to care much about its tenants. The leasing office staff are equally negligent. They could resolve these issues by harassing their corporate office about the issues. Instead they are more focused on signing new leases and keep giving random excuses on the issues without an acknowledgement or a fix.
Your family deserves better. You deserve better. Don't move here just because of a view. There are way better buildings in this neighborhood with a view.
P.S. An Avalon building complex in Edgewater, NJ had burned down with multiple injuries in part due to multiple violations. The Avalon maintenance staff who accidentally set off the fire didn't even call 911 for 15 minutes till after the fire spread, hence risking hundreds of lives. The reviews for that building were eerily similar to this building before it burned down and I just don't feel safe living here anymore after what happened to their other building due to apparent neglect. Avalon Riverview North is poorly maintained with safety violations and health hazards that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
Yikes. Do not provide these people with your personal information. I went apartment hunting and filled out a credit application but didn't end up finding an apartment that fit my needs in Avalon Riverview. Almost immediately, they used my personal information and started billing me for all sorts of things like community fees even though I wasn't a tenant and didn't have any relationship with them. Obviously I didn't pay them, but they turned their made-up bills over to a collection agency to hound me relentlessly using extortionist tactics and trying to ruin my credit. It sounds crazy, but it's true. I've turned them into the BBB. Be very very very careful dealing with these unscrupulous sharks.