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Budget allocation suggestions

Started by mynycse
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 86
Member since: Apr 2010
Discussion about
I am facing a budget allocation issue now. I wish my money supply is unlimited, but unfortunately the reality is not. May I ask, what things you are willing to spend the money on and what things you think you can go cheap? What I am trying to avoid is "going cheap will bite me back in the future", or "spending unnecessarily". Say, e.g., I want to have glass tiles on my bathroom walls and I am... [more]
Response by mynycse
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 86
Member since: Apr 2010

One special request - Would you spend money on a recirculating range hood with carbon filters? I am not sure if going ductless with the above expensive model is worth the price.

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Response by kylewest
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 4455
Member since: Aug 2007

FWIW: glass tiles are expensive and installation is among the most difficult things for a contractor to do well. If it isn't flawless it looks bad, and flawless is tough to achieve. There is also a chance glass tiles will look dated sooner than you think--they are not considered a "timeless" choice. I'd reserve them for a backsplash in the kitchen or for use as a detail somewhere if you really want them. A custom mix of small rectangles in a subway pattern (called a "running bond") is very nice in a kitchen, for example. So right of the bat, I'd say save money by making another choice in the bathroom.

Second, if you get one of those semi-pro stoves you have to put some kind of fan or hood above it. If you don't, the heat and at times smoke will be too much. If you can't put a real outside venting hood, I would strongly consider an over the range ("OTR") microwave siince that will save you space and serve to dissipate the heat when you have a few burners on at once. The top choice is the Viking or Dacor, although the former is better for several reasons I can go into if you want. But to just stick a hood it for the sake of doing it and leaving the rest of the kitchen seems a waste of money to me if you aren't doing anything else in there.

Realize, none of these things will increase the value per se of the apartment more than nominally. By the time you sell they won't be new, and in any event, most renovations help an apartment sell faster--not necessarily for a lot more money. Now, if you are truly upgrading the space by configuring it better and adding real value, that's different.

Spend money of quality where you see and feel it: beautiful doors and knobs, nice kitchen, tasteful and timeless bathroom, proper mouldings and door frames appropriate for apartment's era and design. If walls are decent, I would save money on the skim coating. Custom closets are a godsend in NYC small apartments where space is a premium--Creative Closets last for years with gentle treatment (my last apt they were like new after 18 years) and worth every cent. Nice light fixtures needn't cost a fortune and can really upgrade a place. When they are on the ceiling it is often hard to distinguish a $300 fixture from a $3000 fixture. Some wonderful designs from companies like Hudson Valley Lighting can really upgrade a place.

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Response by needsadvice
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 607
Member since: Jul 2010

Think NEUTRAL! For long term, all your bath fixtures should be white, your wood should be medium brown (this espresso color will be like the '80's whitewash pine look). Don't try to be fashionable. Look back ten years ago, at fashionable clothes, cars, furniture. Do they still look good to you? Of course not. Think timeless.

This is why the wealthy do period rooms and decorating, they are encapsulating a style that is outside of fashion and time. Ten years from they still won't be "in fashion" but they also won't be "out of style" either.

If you want to be trendy, paint an accent wall whatever color you like. Change it with the seasons if you want. Pillows, throws, tablecloths, cheap prints and pictures can be your nod to fashion. Think navy Chanel suit, with changeable trendy shoes and bag, not the latest Juicy Couture head to toe.

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Response by spinnaker1
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 1670
Member since: Jan 2008

It's almost impossible to define good taste, but think of it as being synonymous with timeless and you'll begin to understand. There is a good reason why some materials and applications have stood the test of time, so stick with those things and you'll be fine. Use of natural materials is a good place to start. Be somewhat boring, standard, solid, and resist the urge to over decorate. You'll save money and have a better result in the end.

Blue Star is the best range by a mile. If I had a small enclosed kitchen and couldn't vent outside I would consider induction above all else.

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Response by happyrenter
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 2790
Member since: Oct 2008

There are certain things in your apartment that have to be up to a certain standard or it will be unpleasant to live there. You need a decent paint job. You need quality windows that keep heat in and noise out. You need a clean, pleasant, functional bathroom. You need radiators that don't leak or make noise all night. You need a kitchen that is efficient, clean, and reasonably pleasant to be in. You need working appliances. You need a properly finished floor. You need working electrical outlets. I'm sure there are a few things I forgot to mention.

Before you start budgeting, you need to prioritize. Go over this list of necessities and determine what you already have and what you will need to do to bring the apartment up to a decent standard. It's silly to think about glass tiles in the bathroom if you don't have a working stove. Don't worry about skim coating the walls if the floor is splintering under you feet. Before you consider aesthetics you need to address the basic structure and functionality of your space.

That said, I think it's important that whatever work you do in your apartment be of high quality. If you have an old, ugly kitchen, it might cost upwards of $50,000 to replace it nicely (or over $100,000 if its larger), or $25,000 to replace it poorly. If you can't afford the $50,000, I say leave the old kitchen (assuming it functions) and learn to love it. I can't tell you how often I see brand new poor quality kitchens that look just as bad as what they replace.

Or take your bathroom. If you can't afford to put good quality subway tiles on all walls of the bathroom, then just tile the shower area with good tiles and paint the rest. This is much better than putting cheap tiles on all the walls.

Focus on the bones of the apartment. A beautiful floor is like a great pair of shoes: it will raise the level of the entire space. Make sure walls and doors are in the right places--here I disagree with Kyle. It's more important that your door be in the right place than that it have a fancy doorknob. The apartment needs to flow.

Finally, adhere to the legendary Dieter Rams's 10th principle of good design: good design is as little design as possible. Or, the KISS principle: keep it simple, stupid.

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Response by needsadvice
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 607
Member since: Jul 2010

I agree with happyrenter; basics first.

If you really like the glass tiles, get a wooden tray and a little grout, and voila; glass tile tray, toss it when you get tired of it. Hard to toss a whole wall.

As for furniture, spend as LITTLE as possible. Get what you like, but don't spend a ton. It won't "go" in your next place, your kids don't want to inherit it, and it'll end up on Craigslist in 5 years. I learned this the hard way, after having spent thousands on spectacular italian furniture in a modern setting, then moving to a prewar where it made no sense. I should have gotten the knock-off furniture for thousands less, the Craigslist price would have been the same.

As for floors, this is very important. Floors and walls cover the majority of any space, obviously. Look at them hard. Then decide on a neutral, not too fashionable, covering.

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Response by ab_11218
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 2017
Member since: May 2009

i agree that the glass tile is a fad that will go sooner then later. a small accent between nice tiles will be a much better solution. the vessel sinks are the same thing, will be dated very soon.

keep with neutral tones, those blue glass tile bathrooms are horrid. the installation is very expensive. just one tiny mistake and the whole bathroom is shot.

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Response by lad
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 707
Member since: Apr 2009

I would say balance the calls for "neutral" with the character of your building. E.g., we live in an unabashedly post-modern building. The previous owner did a very "neutral," traditional renovation of the kitchen and bathrooms that looks completely out of place with the rest of the unit. I almost feel a responsibility to rip these out and restore them to their grand, post-modern funkiness, but that will have to wait for another day given our other renovations.

I generally prefer apartments to be true to the character of their building, whether pre-war or modern. Sometimes intentional juxtaposition works, but in my opinion usually only in very high-end renovations.

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Response by mynycse
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 86
Member since: Apr 2010

Thanks a lot everyone. Now I have 2 more questions:

1. I am aesthetically challenged (no kidding). What are some good examples of a timeless bathroom? Just a few pictures (links) will help me a lot. I have not bought anything yet and I am in a post-war building.

2. Vessel sink - Thanks for bringing this up. My bathroom is so small that I have only about 18 inches wide for the sink cabinet. Of course 18-inch sink is very small, that's why I am thinking of doing a vessel sink of about 22 inches and then an 18-inch sink cabinet. Any other solutions?

3. The reason why I asked specifically about range hood is because I love to cook. One of the contractors said my only option for ductless range hoods are those with carbon filters (costs about $5,000), anything else are pretty useless (since no absorption of oil and smell). I have a nice working microwave already so I am only looking at regular range.

Thanks again!

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Response by kylewest
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 4455
Member since: Aug 2007

A $5,000 range hood that doesn't even vent is about the biggest waste of money I've ever heard of. That price is beyond outrageous.

Happyrenter: I think we actually agree here. I was assuming that walls and doors were not going to be getting moved when i listed things that might be money better spent than trendy tile work. I said that well-conceived reconfiguration was the one improvement that could foreseeably pay for itself upon resale.

As for vessel sinks, they are like recessed lights. Awful. Period. Always. Dated, faddish, annoying to use--opposite of timeless. We had a very tight space to work with and found a Duravit pedestal ("Subway" model?) that was perfect and classic without any fussiness. Consider whether you really need a vanity cabinet--create space by at least partially recessing a 6"+ deep Robern double wide medicine cabinet and reserving 2 shelves of a nearby linen closet for whatever would ordinarily go under the bathroom sink. By eliminating the vanity under the sink, you can make a small bathroom feel less cramped.

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Response by happyrenter
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 2790
Member since: Oct 2008

Here's a timeless bathroom courtesy of apartmenttherapy:

http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/chicago/tile-stone-countertops/bathroom-tour-from-bungalow-tile-046596

It's not perfect: I'd get a pedestal sink rather than that metal leg thing that's trendy right now. And I don't think it's necessary to tile the ceiling in the bathroom. But this is a good place to start. It's not fancy, it doesn't have a lot of needless "luxuries." It's just a beautiful, simple, functional, quality bathroom.

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Response by lad
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 707
Member since: Apr 2009

Agree that vessel sinks are horrible and my personal design pet peeve.

But recessed lights are dated and faddish? Really? I've seen them pretty consistently in units built from the 70s to now. I'll admit that I like them. Then again, three out of my last four apartments have have had lower ceilings where even a flush-mount fixture would make the ceiling seem even lower.

Now track lighting, I can see being dated. It always looked bad to me, and the swirly track lighting fixtures that were in about five years ago made it look even worse.

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Response by mynycse
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 86
Member since: Apr 2010

Regarding range hood: My contractor told me that the Miele one with charcoal filters is the best. I went to Miele showroom to take a look and the guy told me it's $5,000. I think I should do more research on this.

And thanks for the links.

Regarding sink cabinet: Unfortunately, the current recessed space is only 3.5 inches deep so not much room for storing tissue paper. I don't know if I can dig deeper... I am not sure.

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Response by printer
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 1219
Member since: Jan 2008

agree with kylewest - $5k for a hood is beyond insane. i think weaving dollar bills together and suspending them above the range to absorb the smoke/grease would be a better use of your money. at the end of the day, there is very little you can do to effectively rid your apartment of cooking smoke/smells if you can't vent outside. you just learn the best ways to open the windows for venting, and you can try some homemade remedies like keeping a small pot of simmering vinegar/water mixture on the stove while cooking fish.

good ways to spend money imo: molding and burying cables behind it. not that expensive, and it makes everything look good. i'd also recommend, if you are re-doing the bathroom, installing a thermostatic valve for the shower. in terms of return for $ spent, if you don't have a w/d and can put one in w/out sacrificing too much space.

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Response by kylewest
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 4455
Member since: Aug 2007

lad, I've combined my comments on two threads in my head and forgot the remarks I made re: recessed lights a couple days ago were on a bathroom lighting thread--not here. Let me clarify. I have recessed lighting. I love it--when it is the modern, 4" type with lenses or bulbs flush to ceiling and very clean looking. And when it is supplemented by proper accent and task lighting and lamps etc.

The recessed lights that are 100% awful always, always, always, are the ones that look like Chock Full O'Nuts coffee can shoved up into the ceiling. Those huge things from the 1970s that, along with track lighting, are just ugly in NYC apts. This is obviously something that boils down to personal taste, but mine is very good so therefore all large recessed lights are bad.

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Response by happyrenter
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 2790
Member since: Oct 2008

i actually disagree about track lighting. any lighting designer will tell you that to light a room well you need layers of light: at the ceiling, at mid-height, and low. moreover, if you have art that needs light track lighting is one of the few reasonable options. i certainly prefer that to dropping a ceiling in order to allow for recessed lighting. when i see that, especially in prewar apartments, it drives me crazy.

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Response by kylewest
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 4455
Member since: Aug 2007

All the track lighting I see looks like those $50 kits from Home Depot. Those make-your-own-shape-on-the-ceiling, plastic-made-to-supposedly-look-like-aluminum deals. Yuck. Just yuck.

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Response by happyrenter
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 2790
Member since: Oct 2008

presumably, if you are looking at home depot lighting, it is going to be ugly no matter what sort of lighting it is. the key issue with lighting is that it needs to provide light.

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Response by lad
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 707
Member since: Apr 2009

Phew, good to know I'm not hopelessly un-trendy when it comes to recessed lighting. :-) With sub-8' ceiling height in a good portion of my apartment, I basically have no other choice for overhead lighting.

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Response by NYCMatt
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 7523
Member since: May 2009

"As for furniture, spend as LITTLE as possible. Get what you like, but don't spend a ton. It won't "go" in your next place, your kids don't want to inherit it, and it'll end up on Craigslist in 5 years."

I disagree.

Find a style of furniture you like that's timeless -- not trendy -- and it'll fit well in any setting. And then buy the best-built, highest quality you can afford.

In the long run, you'll spend more money on throwaway furniture every 5 years as it breaks and wears out over the course of 40 years than you would if you'd have just bought the good stuff in the first place.

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Response by happyrenter
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 2790
Member since: Oct 2008

matt,

i think you miss the point of the advice: this is a person with budget constraints who is facing an expensive renovation. ideally, yes, get high-quality furniture. but if you have to choose between an expensive sofa and an expensive floor/moving a wall/refinishing a tub, etc. etc. it makes sense to spend less on furniture, since it is far more easily replaced.

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