open kitchen vs traditional in prewar 6

So 5 years ago.

And so a lot of people have jumped on the bandwagon.

So did people with smoking.

Doesn't make it a good idea.

lucille,

obviously my nanny is doing dirty work that my wife and i don't want to do. if we wanted to do it, one of us would quit working and it. she walks our dog, cleans our breakfast dishes, signs for our packages, changes diapers, waits around in doctors offices, etc. etc. as for the pure childcare, i love my daughter, and it would be a joy for me to get to spend more time with her during the week. but the point is she is MY daughter. she isn't my nanny's daughter.

now, it happens to be the case that my nanny is legal, that i pay her on the books, that i pay her a lot more than $650 a weeks, and that i do my best to treat her with respect. but i am under no illusion that she has a great job. and i certainly don't trust that all or even most nannies have decent working conditions and wages. i know for a fact that many if not most do not.

jason,

there is a big difference between what works in new construction and what works in a preexisting building. it may be that everyone prefers an open kitchen in a new house. that does not mean that it's a good idea, either aesthetically, practically, or for resale, to try to shoehorn an open kitchen into a prewar apartment that wasn't built for one.

moreover, in most suburban construction the kitchen can be huge, and open to space with couches etc. and still closed off from living and dining rooms.

>Also, I find it funny that people object to having fridges and microwaves
>interfere with their living areas while they have 52" flat screens bolted to the wall.

Just FYI, some of us who dislike having fridges and microwaves in the LR also dislike having TVs there!

sorry, it bothers me when i see nannies at the doctor's office instead of mom and dad. just sayin'...

and i'm around nannies all day, every day. nannies in NYC (at least UWS nannies) have a pretty good work day - parks, playgrounds, museums, lunches, playdates, etc. i've never heard one complain about their "working conditions". they work for rich people in one of the best neighborhoods in the country. what the hell is there to complain about!? i've worked as a nanny and housekeeper in a past life - there are many worse fates in this world.

"they work for rich people in one of the best neighborhoods in the country. "

are you serious? have we really gotten to the point that working for rich people is considered a privilege? what is wrong with this country?

Uwsmom: there is a nanny who worked for a long time on the UWS, now very active in seeking to get more legal protections for nannies. Just saying. I doubt she ever complained openly when she was employed. Different story now. It can be a difficult relationship to navigate, even with all the best intentions and actions all around (on the books, generous pay).

As for ped offices - the waits did me in. Once I had more than 1, I switched to an office that didn't take insurance upfront, but also reduced my wait times from 45 mins to 10 mins with impeccable phone manners & protocol & weekend hours. Worth every penny. I feel weird seeing kids with their nannies at the ped but also, most of the time (I'm snoopy), they're in there for shots only. Is that okay?

Thank you, happyrenter.

I'm sure uwsmom is one of those "let them eat cake" types who also thinks that putting nanny on a 60-hour weekend work detail out in the Hamptons is some kind of privilege as well.

hey, in the hamptons they might even get to see rich people in bikinis! what is there to complain about?

matt - seriously? how long have you been on this board?

"i've never heard one complain about their "working conditions"."

Yeah, most of them are really good about hiding their true feelings from other "Mrs.'" because they know darn well you'd go right to THEIR "Mrs." and report what you heard them say.

NYC is a funny place.

The nannies can't afford to laugh, Mrs.

What is everyone talking about? The nannies that I know are making 800-1200 a week. That is not so bad.

Primer, As Matt points out laughs in NY are expensive these days. I pay at least 500 each for mine. See how many of those you can buy on that salary.

it sure is funny, uws, when people like you consider it a privilege that others get to work for the rich. forget about the privilege that it is to BE rich, that's nothing compared to getting to wipe their asses.

happyrenter, don't be silly. There's no need to wipe their asses, since they crap out rose petals!

ph41: your layout sounds very nice. We just have a preference for a maid's room/ small 3rd bed to use as an office.

"there is a big difference between what works in new construction and what works in a preexisting building. "

I agree...retro-fiting a pre-war building might be awful. BUT the vast majority of people with money who could afford either configuration choose an open kitchen design.

open to what? open to the entire house, or open to a "family room" that itself is separate from the living and dining rooms?

Jason: Check the floorplans of renovated 10+ room prewar apartments in truly luxe coops. The typical rework is to incorporate one or more servant's rooms, a servant's hallway, the pantry or some combination of these spaces into the kitchen for the more "open" effect to which Happyrenter refers. Opening the kitchen to the dining room in a big-money pre-war coop is really quite rare.

We're getting a bit far afield from the Classic Six of the thread starter; but in the seriously big apartments where there's ample space to expand the kitchen in other directions, the dining room usually escapes unscathed.

As was noted abotve, the formal DR persists in most McMansions too. The kitchen may be huge, and it may adjoin a large eating area; but there's usually still a formal dining room elsewhere, and it generally gets very little use.

W81: I've seen maybe 2? 3? Classic 6es where the dining room has been combined with the kitchen to create an uber-suburban kitchen. DR -> 3rd BR, yes. K+ maid's -> EIK, yes.

nyc10023: Where it sometimes makes sense - and I know you've already said this is a layout that should be left alone - is in a secondary six with a decent-sized maid's room and a walk-through dining room that can't be converted to a bedroom. As an example, here's the oft-discussed "C" line at 755WEA:
http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/58/2409658.jpg.
The only option for a third bedroom is the MR. So you leave that alone, and open the K and DR to each other. Separately, those two rooms are little dark boxes; I think combining them makes the best of a rather weak six.

>open to what?

Ha!

Open to interpretation, it seems.

west81st,

you just found the apartment for an open kitchen/dining room. in that apartment, it's probably an improvement over the rather cramped, dark, poky original layout.

I faced a similar choice of whether/how to open up the kitchen to the dining room. In my prewar apartment, the two rooms share a relatively short wall. We ended up creating a pass-through that looks (or is intended to look) like it is part of an old butler's pantry. On the dining room side, the surround resembles a tall inset wall cabinet in wood that matches the other woodwork in that room. There are old-fashioned plate display racks on top. The pass-through window itself has shutter-like panels that can be closed if desired. There is a deep counter on the kitchen side and cabinetry surrounding the pass-through window. It doesn't function as a counter for seating (no depth on the dining room side) but you can still pass food back and forth and see and talk to those in the other room.

Not sure if I've described it well, but I think this configuration is less anachronistic and more versatile than an open kitchen. I love having the sightline opened through the pass-through, but the dining room still feels formal and elegant.

I just noticed this apartment 10A and my layout of kitchen, dinining and maids is really similar. this apt combined the two. thoughts?
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/579147-coop-334-west-86th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

I meant to say similar to my apartment layout

"happyrenter
about 7 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse lucille,

obviously my nanny is doing dirty work that my wife and i don't want to do. if we wanted to do it, one of us would quit working and it. she walks our dog, cleans our breakfast dishes, signs for our packages, changes diapers, waits around in doctors offices, etc. etc. as for the pure childcare, i love my daughter, and it would be a joy for me to get to spend more time with her during the week. but the point is she is MY daughter. she isn't my nanny's daughter.

brilliant. BRILLIANT

stay strong, columbiacounty. nate dogg is in a better place now. he would want you to accept his passing peacefully and let yourself love and be loved.

Bela, that's a lovely layout and I personally would prefer it if the kitchen were closed off, as it was orginally.

Bela: it is a question of semantics. To me, the DR has not been combined with the K, the K is open to the DR. In an UWS family apt classic 7 scenario, I don't think it loses that many buyers.

It's also just really a question of either keeping the maid's as a 3rd bedroom, or making it part of the kitchen. If you want the use of the maid's as a 3rd bedroom, then you "open" or "partially open" the kitchen to the dining room so you have the closest thing to an eat-in kitchen that you can get.

Why is this so difficult to figure out?

Because of the nanny problem, apparently.

i think they could have achieved a similar but more elegant solution if they had simply created a large entranceway between the dining room and kitchen with a pocket door that would maintain separation between the rooms when desired. but that's just my taste. it's definitely a nice apartment either way.

If you're trying to maintain a more "closed off" kitchen when entertaining, then IMHO pocket doors would be a PITA. You try opening/closing while carrying food/drinks/etc. (Unless, of course, you've gotten your nanny to "help" out during your dinner party).

And the pocket door does not give the option of the dining counter, which also works very well as a buffet.

the so-called dining counter is such an inelegant solution. is it actually pleasant to dine at? and here's another idea for a buffet: a buffet. i don't like kitchen islands either ,but at least they serve their function reasonably well.

obviously you don't open and close the sliding door (whether pocket or not) while carrying food and drinks. is this really hard to figure out? you leave the dining room, open the door, grab the food, bring it through the door, put it down, then shut the door. or leave it open. the point is it's an option. personally, i think it would even be preferable to have a larger opening between the two rooms with no door at all--the pass-through is just so unattractive. it's not really about entertaining vs. family time, for me it's about finding the most attractive, functional solution for all situations.

"obviously you don't open and close the sliding door (whether pocket or not) while carrying food and drinks. is this really hard to figure out? you leave the dining room, open the door, grab the food, bring it through the door, put it down, then shut the door. or leave it open. "

Sounds just SO easy - but then, as I said, with the "nanny" doing the serving, I guess it is for the host/hostess

The Classic Six I grew up in (3BR, 2BA, LR, DR, kitchen, pantry, foyer, ridiculously long hallway) had the original swinging door between the pantry and the DR, with a porthole window in it so you didn't swing it into someone.

Such elegance.

(And no nanny, by the way.)

the classic six we just renovated had a swinging door from working area of kitchen (maid's room/bath behind kitchen) into dining room. I was mesmerized that the dining room side of this door had a lock on it! to keep the maid out while they were sleeping????? I don't know the protocol but the same couple had lived in this apartment for 53 years...

@Boss- we put in swinging double french doors, multi-paned with textured glass. Agree, works well, looks elegant.

Rosina, here's a mention of locking the help out of the main apartment: http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/id?417253

Love it.

Bela - re. the "A" line at 334 West 86th, I remember seeing #7A a couple years ago and thinking "Wow, that's an awkward kitchen wing. What would you do with that?" The zig-zag access to the maid's room makes the space quite challenging. #10A reflects a fairly elegant solution. The rest of the "A" floor plan is quite nice, BTW.

NWT...just read the article and describes our apartment perfectly including the long service hall to the back entrance. Too funny! Thanks!
Happyrenter...you asked whether the dining counter was a pleasant place to eat. We use it more for snacks or reading the paper but it's biggest use is with the little grandkids. I put the three four-year-olds up on the bar stools (which they cannot get off of without help and surprisingly the parents don't make me put helmets and kneepads on them) and then feed them there. they get to watch me make their food and give me preferences and/or stir various pots with tastings included. REally adorable. The five and six year olds have the later turn and are far more adept at making hydrolic lift on bar stools go up and down. cheap fun.

rosina - can we adopt you as grandma? :)

i agree that a sliding door sounds like a pita. i think any door - sliding, swinging, french - sounds like a pain. we have a swinging door between K & DR and the only time it swings is when the little ones are playing with it, getting fingers pinched or heads smacked. I love our open breakfast bar area, but will admit that 1) we don't use it for eating, and 2) it collects A LOT of clutter - very unattractive. something to keep in mind.

Miette - yours sounds lovely!

nwt

NWT - you're amazing. Sometimes a little scary, but always amazing.

uwsmom.. absolutely as adoption will be the only way i get any more:)
And agree with you on the clutter. Have to make a concerted effort not to let anyone start piles there.

Uggggh...When people with money make CUSTOM made new homes, condos, whatever, they choose open kitchens - open to the family room, LR/DR, whatever. Almost never the closed-off kitchen-only of pre-war design. For the third time, I am talkling new design, built from scratch. People almost never CHOOSE to have a kitchen-only in NEW DESIGN. Ergo, its far and away the more popular choice.

bela,
i can't describe this with words, so i drew you a picture. please don't be alarmed, this only took about 10 minutes while my kids were napping. yes, i'm strange, but we don't need to dwell on that.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=jtxv8k&s=7

i missed one thing, the built in storage in the back room can extend under the window towards the powder room.

and of course, the obvious original challenge-access from kitchen to dining room, duh. just leave in open, no door, just opening between 2 walls. from the DR you will be able to see the built in shelf where you can display dishes/tchotchkes, and just do the fridge cover panels. the sink is behind a wall.

shoot, i would also flip the sink and dishwasher, so you can have more continuous counter space.

lucille,

that's a great solution--a breakfast area, rather than an open bar. very nice. personally, i would leave the maids room as a guest room or kids room, but other than that, that's exactly the right answer. quite elegant and user-friendly.

While you guys are at it do you have any suggestions for how to improve the layout of my kitchen and its relationship to the rest of my apartment? Here's the link to my floorplan:

http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/attachment/show/227901.gif

lucille,
your plan looks great. i just think it does not provide enough counter space for us. i am also not a fan of nooks. in our house it will be a source of constant fights as to who gets to sit in the front and who crawls into the back.
thank you for your suggestions

village owner - do you have to keep the bedroom adjacent to the kitchen as a bedroom? Or could it function as a den/dining room? If so, take a few feet (3) from that room to widen the current kitchen, do an opening on that wall into the adjacent room. Move the door to the current bedroom further into the gallery (good position would be where that very shallow closet is now; don't think you would lose anything by taking out that closet.

It also works if you widen the kitchen and make it an eat-in kitchen, leaving a bedroom that's 10' wide (which is acceptable), and then use the library as a formal (though extremely inconvenient) dining room.

And, villageowner, you wouldn't by any chance be happyrenter?

no problem. depending on how wide your kitchen is, you could put a round table in there that's either bolted to the floor or is heavy enough to stay put and some non imposing chairs. maybe wrought iron spray painted white, or even wood chairs that are just not so heavy. good luck. if this helps you in any way, it's my pleasure.

village: is this a combo of a 1br with a larger 1br? I would have switched the formal areas around. Let the far-side bedroom & living room function as kitchen, dining room and used the other entry door as main entrance. Then use the gallery area as bedroom hall leading to 3brs (kitchen changed to 3rd br). Weakness of plan - don't know which side has the better exposures, 3rd bedroom doesn't have an ensuite or easily accessible bath.

And could you buy the public hallway between the living room and bedroom - that would solve the bathroom issue.

Do you think losing a bedroom will badly reduce the value of the apartment over time? Ph's plan is what I was thinking would make the most sense and I don't need three bedrooms but I am just concerned that it would be an expensive renovation that would result in a less valuable apartment. Not that I plan to sell any time soon but am i wrong about that? Nyc it's an interesting idea but not possible. The apartment was created fifty years ago by combining a four room apartment with two rooms from another apartment so there is only one possible entrance. The hall you suggest purchasing is also not a hall at all but a fire stair so cannot be purchased.

Yes, absolutely it will reduce the value of the apartment.

Three bedroom apartments attract people who NEED three bedrooms as well as people who would view the third bedroom as a bonus.

Eliminating that third bedroom, however, knocks out the people who need three bedrooms.

So any suggestions for improving the kitchen that don't involve eliminating the third bedroom?

that seems to be what he's looking for. it's a weird apartment w/the bedrooms in the front by the door and the kitchen.

villageowner - you don't absolutely have to remove the 3rd bedroom - just make it somewhat narrower (it will still be a lot larger than most maid's/3rd BR. Once you widen the kitchen you would have enough room for a table there, along with greatly expanded, usable counter space. Possibly just widen the current door to the room (that's where a pocket door might actually make sense, as it would work both for a dining room and and a bedroom)

And if you use the current bedroom as a dining room, (just don't do any builtins which are specifically for dining), then it can always be used as a bedroom by a subsequent purchaser.

Actually, happyrenter, the worst part of the layout is that the master must be accessed by schlepping through the main rooms of the apartment (library and living room).There are many apartments where bedrooms are off the front of the apartment.

And happyrenter, come on - you ARE villageowner, are you not? I remember your post about buying a 3BR/3BTH pre-war in the village at a very good price early 2010 and this, while it has a somewhat (okay very) odd layout would certainly fit the bill. Lots of space, however

VO, the main purpose of an apartment is to serve the needs of the people living there, not to sit around for some theoretical resale value. I suggest you reconfigure the space to suit your needs. The amount of money wasted by letting a room essentially go to waste is going to exceed any effect on resale value. Personally, if I were in a space of that size, I'd want it as a 2BR with a much-expanded kitchen. I think you may be in the same boat. There are plenty of people in our shoes.

Here's a thought. Take out the small closet at the top-left of the bedroom and make a short hallway that connects the living room to the bathroom. Then take out the wall between the kitchen and bedroom entirely and recongifure the space as an eat-in kitchen. It'd be left as a big box with an extra nook in the top-right for that second window. Leave the remaining walls up, just opening an entrance to the bathroom hallway.

"the main purpose of an apartment is to serve the needs of the people living there, not to sit around for some theoretical resale value. I suggest you reconfigure the space to suit your needs. The amount of money wasted by letting a room essentially go to waste is going to exceed any effect on resale value. Personally, if I were in a space of that size, I'd want it as a 2BR with a much-expanded kitchen. I think you may be in the same boat. There are plenty of people in our shoes."

THANK YOU.

Ultimately, it comes down to this.

I'm in the same boat, as I look for a second home outside of New York. I've found an adorable 3 bed/2 bath (three small bedrooms) Cape Cod story-and-a-half, with one of the bedrooms on the first floor. I plan to blow out the wall between the living room and the first floor bedroom, turning 12x12 living room into a 22x12 living room. As a single gay man, this suits me just fine. However, I'm keenly aware that the vast majority of potential buyers in this neighborhood are young families who would really miss that key third bedroom.

But frankly, I can't worry about that. If we all worried about potential resale value over every little alteration and improvement, we'd all end up living like renters in generic, utilitarian white spaces.

Here is what I would do. I would make what is called the "Living room" into a 3rd bedroom and put a wall beginning where that thick wall adjacent to the fireplace ends. I'd make the 13x15 bedroom into a dining room with either a look through or sliding doors (this has been debated already and come down to personal choice). So you get rid of the 3rd bedroom but create another one.

This could be made elegant by doing the following: enlarging the opening from the "gallery" into what will now be a hallway to the living room and and enlarging the opening to what is now the dining room (possibly even annexing that shallow closet) and putting in a big opening to the dining room with double doors (either pocket or french). It doesn't make sense, I think, to have a 3rd full bath off the dining room so I would make it a powder room and use the closet and extra space for some combination of a butlers pantry/wet bar with an extra dishwasher (love this) or a washer/dryer.

You do lose the third full bath, but kids can share bathrooms pretty easily so I don't think this is a huge deal, and the third bedroom is right next to the full bath anyway. You'd then have a pretty normal 3 bedroom/2.5 bath layout.

here. can't believe i did this for you.
it's basically what winston said, which i immidiately also thought.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=4puvbk&s=7

this one isn't free though. in exchange, i want you to promise to make a sincere effort to not say stupid sh*t that no reasonably functioning adult could possible actually believe. this is my fee. i think it's sensible.

shoot, the red things in the living room are built ins

one more thing. the kitchen does have a built in nook think, since you want one. this is what i would do as well in MY kitchen. if you need more counter and can live without an eat in kitchen, you can just make that an L shape with counter/cabinets. just a regular kitchen.

ok, i forgot to give you a fridge. you can figure this out thought.

my apartment is a lot nicer than this one at least based on the layout. lucille that's pretty nifty actually i think that would make the apartment better though still a little strange.

Lucille - I am impressed. I like the extra closets and was actually thinking that to though I didn't say it because it was too hard to describe.

Yes, the apartment would still be a little strange - it's never ideal to have to walk through the living room to the master bedroom, but not a deal breaker for many buyers I don't think. The ton of storage space I think would be a positive feature relative to many pre-war apartments that might get buyers to overlook that (other than an atttractive price). With two small children I would love that kind of storage space.

although everyone's suggestions are good, i like 10023's best - flipping kitchen to other side and creating a bedroom wing. assuming this isn't your long-term place, i think having the master bedroom directly off the LR will hurt for resale. i would not want it and would expect a significant discount for it.

unless you have something to compensate for the bad layout - great location + incredible views...

I explained that NYC10023's suggestion not possible there is only one entrance to the apartment. Of all my issues with the the living room bedroom relationship is the least of them probably because I don't use that room as the master bedroom. Lucille thank you so much for taking time to draw your suggestion but I love my two big side-by-side rooms. It looks weird in a floorplan. Before I bought the apt I didn't even want to look at it when my broker suggested it but it totally works in the apartment and incredible for big parties so I am not going to change that. I think the best idea is just to widen the kitchen at the expense of the adjacent bedroom. I don't want to give up the option of a third bedroom.

whatever works best for you. i've never renovated. wondering if you could still flip the kitchen, with large DR/LR/entertaining area and carve out 3 br/2ba from the bedrooms/kitchen area w/o a new entrance....just wondering for my own curiosity. maybe that would make things worse. good luck!

I guess I could. Just that it would take a year and cost half a million dollars and I'm not sure it would be that much of an improvement.

I'd leave it alone. I remember when it was on the market and loved the two big living rooms too. Live with the galley kitchen a few more years and then decide whether it'd be worth chopping up the adjacent bedroom. (Unless you've bought into the kitchen-as-heart-of-home hooey.)

Here's the original B- and C-line plans: http://www.columbia.edu/cgi-bin/dlo?obj=ldpd_YR_2259_MH_001_001&size=large

awesome find! thanks. that's good advice too nwt which i would take except that i have to do some work on the apartment now. i don't want to have to redo work in a few years. but still that's not bad advice either.

What are you planning, VO?

I don't have a plan yet. I have to redo at least one of the bathrooms, change the floor in the foyer, remove a dropped ceiling, do some repairs on the kitchen if I don't put in a new kitchen, remove ugly built-ins, fix some electric, paint. That's the minimum. I will probably do all three bathrooms, change out all the hardware, and do the closets. The big remaining question is whether to do something about the kitchen or not.

happyrenter
about 7 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse my apartment is a lot nicer than this one at least based on the layout

lol so you insist on your right to say stupid shit. i can respect that.

You certainly should.

You are the last word in saying stupid shit.

hey what do you know, columbiacounty! it's been ages! how the hell are ya??

as noted,

fuck you hfscomm1

villageowner, good luck with whatever you decide to do, but just my 2 cents, an outside door in a bedroom is big problem. this is a big place so are in the family market. that room would have to be a master bedroom or a guest room because no parent in their right mind is puting their kid that room. not even considering any elaborate kidnapping situations, but the kids themselves will either be young enough to get out accidentally or old enough to get out on purpose. you should obviously renovate your home to suit your needs, but since resale is an issue for you, and since you will be marketing this as a family home, you should keep this in mind. any room with an outside door has to be a public room. just my 2 cents.

this hfscomm1 is some kind of genuis. he is a computer geek extrodinaire, he knows law, he knows real estate. and he also dabbles in design apparently! left sided, right sided, ALL brilliant. this guy! what can't he do?

be human

columbiacounty, i want to ask you something. have you ever been to any of the shindigs this group used to have? has there ever been a confirmed sighting of the physical manifestation of the entity known as columbiacounty by an impartial party who is not aboutready? who can vouch for you?

who vouches for you? how many identities do you have? why?

i asked you first. absolutely no one vouches for me. i don't exist. back to you, though.

yes.

yes, you have been to the parties and people here have seen you in person? ar doesn't count.

can you not read, fuckdog?

do you not know the meaning of yes, you piece of shit?

your turn now.

who vouches for you? how many identities do you have? why?