building at 1 Sutton Place South

Ken, it looks like the penthouse floorplan is available. However, maintenance recently went up from $32K to $40K.

https://photos.zillowstatic.com/fp/4e717602108940d544f76d9c641a28d2-se_extra_large_1500_800.webp

Check out the maisonette currently for sale; talk about a lot of work for a short hold period. In another life . . ..

I'll bet it sells a lot closer to what they bought it for.

@30yrs - I agree. That is one of the coops that is still very much a club. Whoever ends up with that apartment will be able to afford a much higher price than they will actually have to pay as a result.

Some of the listings in this building have been on the market for multiple years. I prefer 7C to this one, despite being on the market for 1.5 years

@nyc - I like every apartment in that building and find each one special; I am just partial to maisonnettes in general.

Some quirks, but most of the units in that building are great floorplans and great proportions. Love the maisonette -- I don't think I'd change a thing if it were mine. (or 2C)

7C seems kind of like a throwback to when a fair number of affluent gay men lived on Sutton Place.

>> Check out the maisonette currently for sale; talk about a lot of work for a short hold period.

What is that, like $1M of reno and 1 year of effort for 2.5 years of hold? Probably got used for no more than a year before contemplating getting rid of it. And the design seems high-cost and high-effort.

I also wonder if this is all indeed “no sweat”, which I can get, then why the not-gonna-happen original ask of $7.5M on an$5.2M purchase? These sorts of things that are priced at “get me outta my mistake whole” just don’t seem like “no sweat”.

>> That is one of the coops that is still very much a club. Whoever ends up with that apartment will be able to afford a much higher price than they will actually have to pay as a result.

Do you think the price is all that special? At $6M, this is still $2000 ppsf for a ground floor unit in a neighborhood that is very out of demand. In other words, I have no doubt they can afford a higher price, but if they buy this, they’ll be getting less.

30, you're an old timer. Do you know approximately when the east 50's became a big gay neighborhood? I remember all the bars that used to be there and the active hustler scene on 2nd Ave.

@nada - there are many who would pay a very high price for what the address would meab about their standing in a dying world to which they aspire. The "club" is what is special about this building. That cache is gone with River House, but it is still alive and well at both 1 Beekman and 1 Sutton.

P.S. - For my part, as everyone knows, I love the neighborhood and the product. I also could likely get past the board because I speak the language. However, I now have a visceral reaction against the culture. With that said, I do miss the views from the great old clubs. When I was a kid they were oases of loveliness and security; these days they make the hair on the back of my neck stand up on end.

Correction: Actually, today I don't think I could get past the board. I've burned quite a few bridges in the past nine years. :)

@nada - regarding whatever the ultimate price is, I would evaluate the price of substitutes. I would view a fully-staffed/maintained-by-someone-not-named-me townhouse in this neighborhoold as a substitute for the maisonette, and I don't think I could get that for a price lower than what this maisonette will trade at.

I like it but I could have bought NVDA stock and rented at One Sutton Place North instead. https://streeteasy.com/building/one-sutton-place-north/41b

I doubt there's a single unit in 1 Sutton Pl S that requires one to walk through a bathroom to get to a bedroom, let alone the MBR, yet there the abomination is in 1 SP.N/420 E 61). Reason enough to buy in to the dying world.

@stache I believe that part of gay NYC history goes back to the mid-1940s. There's a lot of interesting history regarding the east side and what it was like to live east of 3rd avenue when I believe there was still an elevated line separating the east side. Until the wealthy developed an appetite for wanting to live near the water. Plenty of books covering this part of New York history out there.

>> I doubt there's a single unit in 1 Sutton Pl S that requires one to walk through a bathroom to get to a bedroom, let alone the MBR, yet there the abomination is in 1 SP.N/420 E 61). Reason enough to buy in to the dying world.

LOL. It’s Manhattan. For the bargain price of $10K/mo, as long as there’s a door on the toilet of such a configuration, you should consider yourself lucky.

>> @nada - there are many who would pay a very high price for what the address would meab about their standing in a dying world to which they aspire. The "club" is what is special about this building. That cache is gone with River House, but it is still alive and well at both 1 Beekman and 1 Sutton.

There’s a good dose of circularity in your assessment. No one who cares about their stupid club would pay any more than $2K ppsf. But those who want to join their club would be willing to pay more than $2K ppsf, but they only need pay $2K ppsf so long as they can speak the language and don’t burn bridges.

@nada - "No one who cares about their stupid club would pay any more than $2K ppsf." - That isn't quite the right formulation. The better formulation is that anyone who can get into the club and wants to live in that neighborhood wouldn't pay more than $2K ppsf because they don't have to. If there were more people that fit that criteria, they would have to pay more. Implicit in my reformulation of your take-away is that many who can get into the club don't really care about it; the culture just doesn't bother them as much as it bothers me, and they are happy to reap the benefits.

@stache - That is an interesting find. Obviously apples and oranges to the maisonette, but a building that I certainly would have considered when we first got to NY and wanted to rent in the neighborhood but found few options. I was surprised that I had no idea that there was a rental building at that location because it never came up during our rental years of 2011-2013. It looks like it came online as a rental fairly recently and has involvement from the Walker and Dunlop, which is a DC outfit I am more familiar with than I am with the NY real estate players.

@30yrs - Do you know the backstory on 420 E61st St?

@nada - but I see your confusion. There are many who could not care less about the actual physical space and don't value the neighbor, but who would pay a premium to feel accepted by that crew. However, they would never get past the board. So if your point is that the market is pricing this efficiently, I see it and concede it!

>but who would pay a premium to feel accepted by that crew.

Oh Lord.

Having fully processed @nada’s comments, I am now thinking that the depressed prices in my preferred neighborhood have nothing to do with coop v condo, but are simply a reflection of the general lack of desirability for the sub-prime combination of (1) location; (2) pre-war construction; and (3) full service/high maintenance.

I looked at 444 East 57th for comparison (pre-war condo), and it does not appear to be doing any better than the coops in the neighborhood. The maisonette in there that we passed on in 2013 only recently went into contract (ten years later!) at an asking price that is even sadder than the one in play when we were looking. See this discussion for further detail: https://streeteasy.com/talk/discussion/45975-9c-1395-is-this-a-good-deal

Yeah, that was sorta my point. The 1 Sutton Place South maisonette is certainly nicer than the one in that condo, but $2k ppsf for a pretty penny for a ground floor apt. I just don’t see it as $3k ppsf space, if only it were a condo.

It's pistachio ice cream.

The nuttiest (pun intended) prices that I have seen for ground floor apts, off the top of my head, are 150 Charles. Current prices range from $2K for ultra-lux developer-level finishes to $3K fully blinged out with post-developer 2 renovations in less than 10 years (WTF!?!??):

https://streeteasy.com/building/150-charles-street-new_york/1bn

https://streeteasy.com/sale/1535814

These units are in arguably as prime a location as it gets, well-executed new dev, and high-amenitized for about the same monthlies as 1 Sutton Place South. That’s what makes me say “Nah, I don’t think anyone’s paying more than $2k ppsf for prewar Sutton Place maisonettes, even if a condo and done up to the Nth degree”. As much as you prefer low, cozy, and Sutton, demand from the rest of the market is high, airy, and Village.

Your situation reminds me of a grad school friend, whom I would describe as having the personality of a George Costanza, except he was taller, smarter, fit, and handsome. The main characteristics he shared with Costsnza was the outlook, the accent, the wit, and the baldness.

He once said he wished he were attracted to “unattractive” girls, because: (a) it’d be all that easier to find a girlfriend; and (b) what does he care if the rest of the world found them “unattractive”, as long a he found them attractive. Sadly, he found himself in the predicament of being attracted to “attractive” girls, making life difficult.

Point being… you’ve hit the NYC apartment attractiveness lottery. But don’t forget that as attractive as they seem to you, they don’t to the rest of the market.

Honestly, that whole spiel was so Costanza that I question whether he just lifted it from a Seinfeld episode, but I cannot recall any such episode.

@nada - Ha! Yes, I am fortunate that I do like apartments that few others do. With that said, I do appreciate properties like that WV townhouse in the other thread. I would never want to own that. To this day my favorite living space of all time was my 500-square-foot studio apartment in PacHeights.

@30yrs - Excellent analogy. I love pistachio ice cream and don't understand how anybody could not love it like I do.

Are:150 Charles
A private garage (not just a space, but an actual private garage attached to the unit) is pretty special

Although $8 million for a unit with a 14x17 living room seems insane.

Right- looks mediocre and not comparable to 1 Sutton

Thanks Keith. The impression I got was it was the alternative to the W Village at that time, before the UWS took off.

if you get some nice space and views, good quality buildings maintained well, full service, easy Caviar delivery, and you aren't worried about getting to the 6 train but more towards escaping for trips and vacations, why the heck not?

Proximity to LGA cannot be beat.

inonada,
Apparently there is a similar unit available at 150 Charles Street as "off market" with "price upon request."

Yeah? Please let them know you have a customer who’s “not in the market to buy” but can make an “offer upon request”.

I'll let you know when they get back to me

I’m hoping it’s never. I don’t really get this “off market” thing…

@inonada - So there's a trend of people listing places as off market but also saying they're accepting offers? Maybe it's like saying 'we don't need to sell but if you offer us an insanely high price we'll deign to consider it'

https://www.businessinsider.com/new-yorkers-buying-luxury-real-estate-off-market-2022-3

I personally do not find whisper listings morally problematic in the big picture. Sellers are arguably not maximizing their sales price, but they are willing to take a lower price in exchange for the privacy of not having it widely publicized they are selling for their own reasons. As for buyers, they should have their own agent advising them. For full disclosure, Mr MCR and I were buyers of a whisper listing; it was one of our best real estate purchases, and I think we either wouldn't have gotten it or it would have gone for a higher price on the open market, but that was not on our buyer's agent, and I understand through the grapevine that the sellers were well aware of the tradeoff they were making with the "off market" marketing.

The illusion of exclusivity and an inside deal is used by many brilliant marketers. People often pay premiums if they are made to feel special and privileged.

I think for the most part there are two different types of off-market listings. Those such as MCR describes, seller who understands the trade-offs, but is most likely looking to keep the sale low-key.

And then it would appear these days there are many agents who purely use this as a marketing scheme. When you send an email out to 26,000 agents advertising that you have an 'off-market listing', this is simply an alternative to marketing it via the traditional channels. Or a third possibility, and I've seen this in some of the outer boroughs. A seller that's not fully committed to selling, however, if they can get a particular price they'll at least seriously consider it. However, they don't want to go through the whole rigmarole of listing, and having pictures of their home all over the Internet, etc.

Keith Burkhardt
TBG

@Rinette and @Keith - I agree with both of your posts above. The one we bought was not all that special, but was, apparently like most of the properties I like - niche, but not in any way with cache; more like "what type of person actually WANTS that?"

The sellers did not want their kids to know they were selling, and their agent put the word out to other agents to bring anyone who might be interested in the thing.

We had looked at and passed on probably 20 houses over the preceding year and had given up a few months before the call from our agent came in that she had the unicorn we were looking for (rare because not the type of thing many people want, so not many were produced).

The call came in while we were having dinner, and I ignored it, but she kept calling back. I finally picked up, thinking she must have been pocket dialing me.

I listened with scepticism and told her I'd take a look the following week. She told me it would be gone the following week.

There were multiple offers in the 48 hours it was on the market; we were not the highest, but the sellers knew and personally disliked the higher bidder (for political reasons - both the seller and the other buyer knew each other from the administration that was in power at the time) and accepted our lower offer. I wondered at the time whether that was legal and still don't know/don't care.

On the other hand, the most expensive sale in our NY building was apparently through a whisper listing about ten years ago; that apartment has since traded at significant loss to its whisper-listing hey day price (after being on the market for almost five years off and on). I do suspect those buyers (who did not know the difference between a coop and a condominium) thought they were getting something special.

Finally, we have one piece of real estate that we are indifferent about, but don't want to go through the hassle of listing, having pictures all over the internet or non-serious buyers just checking the place out. I would consider whisper-listing it and might actually do that down the road. We still use the place occasionally and are neither committed to keeping it or selling it.

hey, got a nickel to see the unicorn in Times Square?

Maisonette in 1 Sutton Place in contract.