question about HDFC apts

HDFCs are the wild west of NY real estate. Laws are few and far between ... everything else is sort of recommended guidelines. Primary residency requirements are ignored and unchecked; individual buildings can bend every guideline regarding income, price caps, etc., depending on their philosophies.

Evil self-serving dictatorial would-be do-goodie organizations like the reviled UHAB make all sort of pronouncements about the intention of HDFC, when the only purpose originally was to get the properties out of the City's hands to cut costs; secondarily, to stabilize the neighborhoods by stabilizing the buildings; not at all to be the new NYCHA.

Fight back! Sign the petition!

But above all else, be on the lookout for corrupt or horribly mismanaged HDFCs ... many of the residents bought for hundreds of dollars, and don't really care, while you'll be squandering your father's life savings. Latest audited financial not yet ready when they should be? Run away fast!

And if you're question means that it truly would be your full-time residence, then absolutely you can apply as a family, then alter your family's living plans a bit after the fact.

Wow, Alanhart -- very useful feedback! Many thanks!

I largely agree with alanhart. There are some HDFC's that are terrific buildings with great boards, but as alan said HDFC's really are the wild west of NY real estate. I know of some new HDFC's forming in my area (Hamilton Heights) that are dirt cheap- 34k for a 3 bedroom. Keep in mind the bedrooms a likely to be tiny and who knows how well these were re-hab'ed. Not to mention you will have no idea who your fellow owners will be (the buildings are vacant and about to come to market)- or whether they are capable of managing a building.

Some boards take the income restrictions literally, others will ignore it altogether.

I'm also looking into buying an apt in a coop HDFC building. According to the broker only a portion of the apts are under HDFC. The building seems well-run and the broker insists that the coop has lots of money in reserves. We are concerned about moving forward before seeing the coop bylaws and the broker insists that we can't see them until we make an offer and get a lawyer. Is that the way it really works? I'm concerned about making an offer, which the broker requested that we put in writing, and then finding out that the coop or building have significant problems. Any insight/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

GiGi:

Try contacting HPD. They are at 100 Gold Street, which is south-southeast of the
Municipal Building and Pace University.

semerun, where and how are new HDFCs forming? Generally the City has gotten rid of all the ones it seized for nonpayment of taxes in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

A few (notably two large and otherwise lovely RSD buildings) have been taken away recently from criminally, dangerously irresponsible landlords for severe violations, but those will be in the clutches of UHAB for the next 35 years -- they will actually control the Boards, choose the corrupt management companies, and have already moved homeless families in and dictated policy -- contractual -- that makes them worse than NYCHA ... plus maintenance is sky-high, because most of the residents will use Section 8 vouchers for the bulk of their maintenance, so they don't care. Sloppy renovation was done at maximal cost with massive mortgages.

Anyway, for all those who think Hamilton Heights and the area around the new Columbia campus will continue to gentrify (or yeomanize, even): beware all the stealth "projects" that appear from the outside to be normal tenements. I have a feeling that neighborhood is too thick with them to go uphill, and very probably will go downhill if UHAB has its way. They are the anti-Christ. At least NYCHA promoted decent living for the first several decades of its existence.

Hi Alanhart,
I can't speak of all new HDFC's- but I am aware of a new HDFC co-op of 12 buildings in the upper 140's, which is where I live. I can't comment on the actual quality of the work that was done- but they definitely addressed the aesthetics of the building exteriors- which surprised me. I have seen HDFC rehab's from the 80's and they were horrible.Based on the aesthetics alone, I initially thought a couple of these buildings were planning on going condo. The prices on these range from 15k for a studio up to 34k for a 3 bedroom. The maintenance does seem high for these apartments although not dramatically out of line- but I can only guess that includes an allocation for a building mortgage. The neighborhood is thick with HDFC's, but I never saw Hamilton Heights to be another FDB in Central Harlem. It will be interesting to see what happens with the commercial real estate with that portfolio of $100 million estimate containing properties on 125th street, a few key properties in Hamilton Heights and a few Washington Heights buildings. One of the buildings includes the El Mundo on Broadway and 146th st. El Mundo hasn't touched the original theater in back.

Alan: who is UHAB (or who controls UHAB) and why does the city turn over bldgs to them vs. current residents?

www.uhab.coop

Ostensibly, the buildings ARE turned over to current residents, but handicapped in their autonomy. But UHAB, as with many nonprofits, has learned the ways of the Triborough Bridge Authority (if you haven't read The Power Broker, do so this weekend). Basically, they've created a self-perpetuating ever-growing monster that derives handsome fees for managing projects (and, I believe, mandating their in-house management company in many cases) -- giving them a treasure chest to continue growing, and growing in influence.

They successfully portray themselves as the voice of affordable housing, and the NYT always quotes them when they need a pat sentence about anything relating to housing affordability (other than rent stabilization, for which RGB and one of three tenant lawyers get the quotes).

They are callously incompetent, often worse than the worst landlords around.

I don't know who controls it, or whether the trustees are in on the corruption, incompetence, et cetera.

They've also inserted themselves into issues of Mitchell-Lama conversions to market rate (which they refer to as "privatization", even though Mitchell-Lamas are already private), and sponsor a fake grass-roots stealth group to influence M-L residents, and promote legislation to ban or heavily tax conversions, and quietly lard up other State and City programs with poison pills to entrap the buildings in the program for decades longer.

With a grain of salt: http://uhab.org/

GraffitiGrammarian, in case it's not clear, I want to amend my advice by saying you should differentiate between HDFCs based on how long ago they became HDFC. The older ones are better and more loosely defined by the City; I'm not sure of a cutoff year. Ask what year the HDFC requirements sunset, and what happens after that ... each building seems to have a very different idea, and it seems unclear legally whether or not they can simply become market-rate if they choose (or, for that matter, whether they MUST become market-rate as a matter of law).

Thanks, Alanhart, I will do that. And thanks to the others who responded.

Alanhart, do you work in RE? Are you a lawyer?

thx, GG

I've been renting in the area for a year now, trying it out to see if I like it, which I do very much. I put my name in for the UHAB lotteries and was selected for the Hamilton Heights HDFC. I went through the whole process, taking since January, where I had a board-interview, an open house tour and finally I put a deposit down this week.

Semerun: the apartments are your average sized walk-ups. Some are larger than others, but none are really that tiny, compared to what is possible in New York. The restoration work is very good: floors, electrical, plumbing, appliances, it's all solid, but no-frills work.

As to your comment about choosing your neighbors, well, in one sense, you never actually get to choose. One can 'choose' their neighbors in the sense of a class-based way, by buying in a wealthy co-op, for example, but you never know who the crazies amongst the rich will be. And let's be honest, crazyness doesn't discriminate by aggregate wealth in NYC. If anything, it seems to be fostered even more amongst the upper class.

alanhart: what is it that you have against UHAB so, so much? i have heard you complain about them before but what is it specifically that makes you speak of them as the 'anti-christ'. i make not very much at all by nyc standards, as a musician, but i have a doctorate from an ivy league school, and UHAB is making a long-term life in new york so much more possible for me. i grant you their utter incompetence, which is truly baffling, as it seems to pervade every aspect of their operation. But evil? No, not a chance.

I'm looking into buying an apt at 130 lenox, also an hdfc. does anyone know anything about this bldg and its coop board?

Avaris, good luck with your purchase. Congratulations!

Can I ask you what the price per square foot works out to on the place you are buying?

As for Alanhart's comments about choosing your neighbors -- I cannot speak for him but it is perhaps more likely when you live in a super-cheap place that you will find you have some neighbors who are not very well socialized, who don't care if they are being rude, smelly, loud, etc.

Such developments sometimes have residents who don't work, who live off disability, who don't spend much time around other people and consequently don't know how to behave themselves very well.

I once had such a neighbor next door to me in a very well known rent stabilized building in Bklyn.. The building was historic -- had been constructed to house the workmen who built the Bklyn bridge -- and this, combined with low rents and limited supply, meant there was a long waiting list to get in the building.

The neighbor was truly heinous, very smelly and caused bad odors in my apt. He had been there forever and probably paid almost nothing in rent. He did not work, but lived on disability. This isolation made him even more of a troll and he was really the main reason I moved out after one year.

I do not think that such people would be more likely found in HDFC housing but I do think they are more likely in general to be in less expensive places, alas. People on low incomes can get isolated and peculiar, and difficult to live next to.

Hi GG,

Thanks for your support! I generally agree with your point about low-income neighbors, I just wanted to point out that unless you live in the country, you never really get to 'choose' your neighbors, there is just more of a filtering process by class, ethnicity, etc.

The PPSF of the UHAB apartment is about $42/sqft. That is to BUY, and not to rent!

The point about neighbors was semerun's, not mine, and he was referring to buying presale into a development.

Wow Avaris, that's an impressive price!

Sorry for the misquote, alanhart.