Auction at One Hanson Place

tragic---it's a beautiful building in an awful neighborhood in which to live, which stands to get even worse as atlantic yards continues

it very nice to look at from afar, and perhaps a pleasant distraction when stuck in the awful traffic that surrounds the building, traffic that will only worsen

check taxes/monthlies and $psf against those of townhouses in many charming well-established brooklyn neighborhood--and against the established prewar coops in Brooklyn Heights, and along Prospect Park West

make your own judgement

Yes, the traffic is horrible at intersection of Atlantic, Flatbush and 4th Ave. But couldn't the same be said for Columbus Circle as you step out of one the most expensive buildings in Manhattan (time warner)? Isn't being a few blocks from Beorum hieghts, Prospect Park, Fort Greene worth something despite the traffic off the lobby? I would really like you to talk me out of this. I don't know if you have seen the units for sale, but they are pretty spectacular. They are going to sell for a fraction of the ridiculous brochure prices.

clt89, tough comparison to make, but I see your point. That said, I'm not sure I'd want to live on top of Columbus Circle either. In both cases the views are impressive, but you have to deal with the noise pollution the moment you step outside. CC is obviously mitigated a bit by the park being right there, but it's no picnic either. Wbottom gets into this hissy-fit about large condos in Brooklyn and how pricey they are. I agree they're expensive, but they do in fact sell. You just have to be fully cognizant of what you're buying into and what your other options might be. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we're only looking at 6 units in this auction, no?

The 6 Top Floor Units. Four 4 bdrm, 1 Penthouse 2bdrm (right under the clock), and One 3bdrm. One of the 4bdrms has a 2,000 ft deck as it is the first floor on the tower. For people who care, the subways that are accessed from the building are #2,3,4,5 as well as many others. Takes 10 to 15 minutes to Wall Street and not much longer to midtown. Easy to get to either the upper west or upper east side.

Personally, I hated the layouts and renos at 1 Hanson. Tacky 'Brazilian cherry' veneer floors, cardboard-thin walls, oh-so-00's travertine baths, and everything somehow looks like a crummy sponsor reno. Layouts are odd, with small rooms and wasted space. The building itself is gorgeous but the developer has shlocked up everything to the point that you might as well be living in any boringly bland new dev. The only saving grace is the amazing view from most units but even that doesn't make up for the cheaply-done interiors.

there are plenty of great place to live in brooklyn which are equally convenient to a variety of subway lines--and are in the midst of wonderful, charming neighborhoods--within a radius of several blocks of 1hp, is a simply awful neighborhood, which will get worse--adn yes, you can walk to nicer neighborhoods, but why not live in one of the nice neighborhoods you would walk to?

Thanks for the input. Good to get a reality check after looking out onto Empire State, Statue of Liberty, etc. But views only go so far in making a place a home.

it would be a lovely place for an agoraphobic

I looked at these carefully - also be aware - directly across Hanson Place to the immediate south AS WELL AS directly on Flatbush Avenue to the immediate north two tall buildings are (eventually) scheduled to be built on either side of One Hanson. If that happens, for the all these PH units (as they already basically have no eastern view) you will be hemmed in. Granted, you'll still have the terrific western sunset view, but still, it'll be very different.

The other issue I had is that the monthlies for these specific units were crazy high - BEFORE the J51 is taken into account! After the J50 expires, it'll be insane.

I also did not like that for Penthouse units, you take the primary elevator banks to the 23rd floor of the building, then have to walk through the hallway aways to another second set of elevators to get to all the PH units. In addition, this second elevator bank is very tiny and the elevator cars are also very small, making moving furniture, art, etc. into those units very tricky.

I'll bid $1, Bob.

What do you think these units will go for? The bidding process will be highest bidder gets to choose the unit of their choice. That would probably be 26a which is a 3800ft 4bdrm with 2000 ft of terrace.

Really? That sounds odd, as some units have reserves and others don't, AND they all have different start points for the bids. Are you absolutely sure clt89? And if you're correct, how does that square with these other points?

correction, 3200ft for the 4bdrm w/ 2000ft terrace

I live a block away from 1HP, and I love the neighborhood.
Sure, it's noisy and can can be dirty, but no more than most blocks in Manhattan.
It also sits on top of the 3rd largest subway complex in the city, and is right next to tons of shopping.
If I wanted suburban living, I'd live in the suburbs.

I am not a big fan of these penthouses for 2 reasons:
1) the already high maintenance will only go up as the costs of maintaining a landmarked building of this height are realized.
2) As previously mentioned, the fact you have to transfer elevators to get to these units.

I'm also not sure about living in a building that is regularly used for filming and large events. In theory, the separate residential entrance should mitigate that, but I'd still be concerned.

From what was explained to me, they didn't have specified apartments with reserves. It is odd, but that is how it was explained. But when talking with some of these people, you have to question what they know. I guess the concept is that highest bidder takes the nicest apartment. If for some odd reason, the highest bidder chooses an apartment that isn't the most valuable (26a) then that is fine with the sponsor. Then they go to the next bidding for the next best apartment. They say that at least 2 will go without reserve but I do not see anywhere that they specify which apartments. So that may create a weird situation if there is really very little interest, then the 2 highest bidders would technically be able to take take the 2 nicest apartments at a good price, at which point, they could than stop the bidding......confusing as I understand it. But maybe i;m wrong.

Just confirmed the bidding process. It is as stated above.

Taxes for 26a (3200ft 4bdrm/2000ft deck) are $30,000/yr BEFORE exemptions and abatements. Currently (and for the next decade or so) actual taxes are, as of 2011, $19,000/yr. CC are currently $3200/mo. So monthlies are around $4,500/mo. ($5,500 if you forget about abatements/exemptions).

Is that really ridiculously high? You wouldn't get off that much cheaper in taxes and upkeep of a nice townhouse, am I wrong? Plus there is the full service aspect that you have to pay for which isn't in townhouse cost.

I think it is ridiculously high. Particularly for Fort Greene!! In Brooklyn!! For a place of that value.... crazy. Think you'll EVER be able to resell it? Hell, I don't think you could GIVE it away for FREE.

Buy what do you really think?

flmaozzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

clt... you think that you will not be able to have a townhouse to yourself without incurring $5500 for maintenance???? have you been smoking the grass in fort greene park lately?

the taxes on a nice townhouse in that area is around $5K. for the other $5K per month that you are saving, you can get a person at your beck and call who you will not have to share with 100s of others.

this was the subject of another thread--i made the point that large apts like this are difficult in brooklyn, where taxes for well-looked after, comparably sized townhouses in nearby prime park slope, for example, are appx 4000-5000 per year--and said townhouses typically trade 1.5-2.25mm--big condos have a tough time competing with this

there are those who want a big family space in an apt, period--they will pay the serious added cost for such space in a condo, and concede location and chrm often--most see the comparable better value in townhouses

Bottoms, kudos for a well-reasoned post (finally). Those apts are indeed at a premium, but they have been selling of late:

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2011/05/last_weeks_bigg_164.php
http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2011/05/last_weeks_bigg_163.php
http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2011/04/last_weeks_bigg_162.php

Half of those sales are family-sized condos (one at 1 Hanson). I think it's nuts, but evidently others are sold on the idea.

Apartments of comparable size are DRAMATICALLY more expensive than townhouses. Even in Manhattan, townhouses are by far the best bang for your buck. Taxes do seem to be extremely low in Brooklyn, but maintance is not free. I own a townhouse in Manhattan. And whether you are in Manhattan or Brooklyn, you are going to incur a steady stream of costs (unless you want to live in a dump and that is not what this would be the comparison for). And taxes for a comparable townhouse are not $5k. I don't doubt there are some with low taxes but you need to compare it to a townhouse worth over 2mm. And as bjw2103 say "evidently other are sold on the idea". It may not be manhattan, but again, people pay up for full service, etc. Not for everybody, but some people absolutely need it.

clt89, there definitely are townhouses with taxes at or under $5k, even those above $2m:

http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&listingid=2183750

ab11218, I would be happy to split my dime bag of weed from Fort Greene Park with you, if you will come to my house and for free, take out my garbage, pick up my packages, sweep my sidewalk, fix the leak at 1am during a rainstorm, clean my gutters when I forget in January and the ice is expanding and cracking the gutters, repaint my hallway which I could have sworn I just repainted last year, deal with my asshole neighbor who decides to build an extension, get my keys on the 5th floor when I forget on the way to work, repaint my hallway again, call the alarm company because the fucking alarm won't go off, call the plumber because my kids don't know how much toilet paper to use, fix my roof and clean the dog shit off the stoop.

Is it your view that apartments trade for the same price as a townhouse per square foot? They never have and they never will in NYC.

for $5K per month, you're really not asking for much. i can hire people for $2K per month to be at your beck and call, then pocket the other $3K.

i can call the plumber, locksmith and alarm company for you. you'll have to pay for them. just remember, every time a plumber walks into your condo, you'll need him to provide insurance that covers the incident for the building. so, a townhouse visit of $300, will run $800 for a condo and will take a few more hours. please don't call me at 1 am as in a condo they'd laugh at you ;).

if you want to go wet over dry, good luck to you to.

having problems with your neighbors in a townhouse???? it's sooooo much worse with a condo. noone will do anything, ever.

"please don't call me at 1 am as in a condo they'd laugh at you ;)."

In my experience, totally depends on the management company. Some are indeed awful about supposed "24 hour emergency availability."

wrong clt--in manhattan often townhouses are much more expensive than are apts--reason being so much of the prime stock of large apts is in coops--many very wealthy dont want to deal with such scrutiny--and in fact the differential btwn townhouse/apt taxes in manhattan is not remotely as vast as is in brooklyn--and gocheck a listing or two. there are plenty of 2 mm townhouses in Park Slope closing right now with taxes btwn 4 and 5k--that equals one month's montlhlies at 1HP right now WITH benefit of abatement--i wont bother comparing for once the abatement is over--and, instead of living on a tree-lined street a block from prospect park and a few blocks from the subway; at 1HP you get to live with the junkies patrolling the stationfront for now, and then among the traffic, drunken fans and garbage that will be put in in connection with atlantic yards--garbage including several more tall bu8ilding that will block 1HP's views, potentially the only redeeming quality one can expeience while living there

the building is nice to look at from afar, for now, at least

Yes the tax differential is radical. I guess 1 Hanson hopes for moronic manhattanites (like me) to come in and not realize that not everybody pays large monthlies (my taxes on my house are currently $55k). But i still disagree with you that people don't pay up for large apartments. Townhouse living is absolutely cheaper per foot. That's why I live in one now. I would never be able to afford a comparably sized full service apartment for my family in manhattan. And this is not some sort of recent arbitrage opportunity. When you sell, the square foot of a kick ass 4 bedroom apartment in a full service building will be much higher than a comparably sized townhouse.

And for the record, the monthlies on this 1 hanson 4bdrm with massive outside space is $4500 (before tax benefits). Even with a townhouse with taxes of only $5k, everybody here assumes is it free to maintain a townhouse and nobody every talks about the sweat equity that you will inevitably put into it day in day out, month in month out. That has a value to it.

Is that neighborhood really that bad??

clt89, there's no doubt a townhouse requires work. That can be factored into your monthlies, but it's obviously not an exact science.

FYI, the tax amounts listed on the StreetEasy pages appear to be wrong. Abated monthly taxes on 26A (the priciest unit) are $1598/mo, not $909. Unabated, they'd work out to $2515/mo. Add the $3217 in maintenance, plus whatever your mortgage is (assuming you've got one of course) and you're looking at quite the monthly nut.

i dont know what neighborhood you live in, but top quality TH's in prime UES, UWS, WVill, Chelsea, Tribeca price just as high as the nicest comp-sized apts; sometimes higher

Per Square ft for townhouses is less. And have you looked at the maintenance or CC taxes on premium apartments. For this blog, all these premium apartments would be a non-starter from a cashflow perspective. Comments on this blog focus almost completely on monthly cashflow analysis. Townhouses will always look better from that metric. And that makes sense for most people, but it completely discounts the fact that there is a large group of "full service" addicts who will only go that route and pay what seem to be irrational premiums. Of coure, this doesn't mean that One Hanson falls into this category because this segment of the buyers market will be significantly smaller given the building's location. Full service addicts seem to have an inelastic price point in prime neighborhoods.....that may not prove out at the corner of Atlantic and Flatbush.

most of the highest end all/mostly cash coops in mnanhattan have litle or no underlying mortgage and huge reserves and impressively low monthlies, based on face value

so full service addicts get good value in top coops esp in connection with face value

there are many 3000 sq ft 8 rms on 5th that trade 10 mm+ $ with lower montlies than at 1HP

and around the corner btwn 5th and mad there you will find townhouses of comp sq ft that trade >10mm $ with taxes/12 that are similar to the coop monthlies

and, as much as there are full service addicts, there are privacy addicts who dont want coop meddling in lifestyle and financial info

Yes, 3000sq ft 8 rooms at 10mm . Those townhouses are most likely over 10,000ft mansions. Madison and 5th doesn't have many 16ft to 18ft basic houses. All mansions and hugely built out, usually with little back yard because built back as far as possible. You could well prove me wrong, but the per foot cost of mansion is probably a fraction of prime large apartment per foot prices.

Wbuttocks seems to have a lot of addiction on his mind.

youre kidding right? the 10,000 sq footers cost 20 mm and up, way up. just like the high floor 12-14 rooms cost 15mm and up--and there are plenty of 18 ft brownstones btwn mad and fifth--

1133 5th (94th st). 3500 ft apartment sold in dec09 for about $3,000/ft.
13 East 94th (right next door), 7000ft house, mint never lived in just sold for around $1900/ft

And prices for this stuff are MUCH stronger now than in Dec09 when this apartment sold.

Anyway, this is all moot, as the intersection of 94th and 5th is a tad different than intersection of Atlantic and Flatbush.

Anybody got the results of the One Hanson auction this afternoon? I'm curious....

Pretty interesting data.
Unit 27A, 3-br, 2,848sf:
10/29/2010 Listed by Stribling at $2,495,000.
01/13/2011 Price decreased by 14% to $2,145,000.
Auctioned for $1,325,000.
The person who just closed on 28A (same layout, same size) just paid $2,095,000. Ouch!

Unit 26A, 4-br, 3,263sf + terrace
10/29/2010 Previously Listed by Stribling at $3,450,000.
02/28/2011 Stribling Listing is no longer available.
Auctioned for $2,550,000.

Unit 31A, 4-br, 3,343sf
10/29/2010 Previously Listed by Stribling at $2,995,000.
02/28/2011 Stribling Listing is no longer available.
Auctioned for $1,700,000.

Unit 30A, 4-br, 3,243sf
10/29/2010 Previously Listed by Stribling at $2,945,000.
02/28/2011 Stribling Listing is no longer available.
Auctioned for $1,650,000 (reserve.)

Unit 29A , 4-br, 3,243sf
02/07/2008 Previously Listed by Stribling at $4,775,000.
05/13/2010 Stribling Listing is no longer available.
10/29/2010 Previously Listed by Stribling at $2,895,000.
02/28/2011 Stribling Listing is no longer available. Last priced at $2,445,000.
Auctioned for $1,700,000.

Unit PHA, 2-br, 2,128sf
10/29/2010 Previously Listed by Stribling at $2,195,000.
02/28/2011 Stribling Listing is no longer available.
Auctioned for $1,325,000 (reserve.)

I was close to 26a as an investment property, but at the price it went for it just doesn't prove a good use of cash.
My assumption was that it may be possible to find a financial type willing to rent it out due to close location and actually huge space.
But the rent that this market can fetch is unclear. If you were able to rent it at $12000/month, at the price this sold for (2.55mm + 10% + closing costs), it creates a Cap Rate of less than 3%. Not worth it unless it can rent for a higher number. Maybe it can, it don't know.
But it is great space, and a very unique setting. It isn't impossible for this to prove to be a great asset down the road for somebody. But from a cash flow perspective, no bargain as far as I can see.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/17/nyregion/apartments-are-auctioned-at-towering-brooklyn-condo.html?src=twrhp

Why r they surprised that post a massive re bubble, things are selling 80% off? -oh that's why they live in brookkyn-

So much for the Ft. Greene "soul" premium.

Who is going to rent this place for $12,000(+!!)/month in Fort Greene?!?

Buyer paid 2.55 (all in around 2.85mm). 5k in monthly expenses. With cost of capital around 5%, that's $12k/month. Total $17k per month. With tax benefits, around $13k per month, give or take. Who would pay 12k/month? The buyer last weekend is paying more than that with all the risks of being the owner. Why is it far fetched for a renter to take no owners risk and have an incredible home with 4 bedrooms and 3000 ft patio in the sky to pay 12k? So expat banker from France who fancies himself a downtown cool type and who has his bank paying all or most of his living expenses and doesn't exactly understand the sublties (nor cares) of the markets could easily be taken by this place that shows very well. Easy ride to downtown and he can live the life of banker by day, hipster by night. There are tons of these guys.

It's a little rich at $12K a month. List $10K, and you'd probably get someone to bite at a negotiated $9K.

Whatever, but my orignal point was that at 2.55mm, this price doesn't create a good investment opportunity even though though it appears to be at such a huge discount. Ridiculous original prices.

Sure, but isn't that what this bubble is all about? It'd take close to a factor of 2 to get to "good investment", but if you have to buy because your wife is nagging you, not a bad option to pick up something like this.

These kinds of rentals are very difficult to price - there are so few comps. I like inonada's approach. Maybe you garner a bit of interest at 10k and get some ultra-competitive wealthy "morons" into a mini-bidding war.

clt89, totally agree. Those original asks are utterly meaningless though - I hate when people say that they got such a huge discount from ask. As this example proves, even massive "discounts" can prove to be underwhelming. Why gauge value on a purely aspirational and arbitrary figure?

I can only tell you that I could easily have been one of those morons on a rental basis. That space and patio on 26a is completely unique. How is that ever going to be duplicated. Whether you like it or not (ie-people who prefer townhouse living), this is an eye catcher and impulsive decisions can easily be made for a 1 or 2 year lease.

Also there are people who know a lot more about brooklyn than me, but it is not impossible for this to be a good asset down the road. That's assuming you don't think NYC is going to implode. I just don't think you can disregard foreign money and some spoiled son of a sheik who wants to live in a hipper neighborhood than upper east side. Dropping a couple million for a huge place with views of all 5 boroughs isn't far fetched.

"Yes, the traffic is horrible at intersection of Atlantic, Flatbush and 4th Ave. But couldn't the same be said for Columbus Circle as you step out of one the most expensive buildings in Manhattan (time warner)? "

I agree with wbottom.

First off, columbus circle is across from Central Park. Such a huge factor, I don't think its necessary to go on.

Also, I don't find the traffic as bad around CC, and its a nice circle. Flatbush and Atlantic zone to be is much bigger, much crappier.

Not to mention, compare a mall with some geuniely high end stuff and some ofthe most expensive restaurants in NYC.... with the mall that had a shooting at Buffalo Wild Wings.

this one isn't even close.

It's not close, that's whay a 4bd w/ 3000sf outdoor space and drop dead views went for 2.5M. How much would this go for in the vicinity of CC?

rivas, probably close to 10x the price.

"I just don't think you can disregard foreign money and some spoiled son of a sheik who wants to live in a hipper neighborhood than upper east side."

No. In fact, I think that possibility can effectively be disregarded.

Somewhereelse, do you really think i was comparing price points and desirability of Time Warner with Williamsburg. I think you missed the point.

clt89, this is downtown Brooklyn / Fort Greene, not Williamsburg, despite the original name of the building.

williamsburg bank building is what i meant.

rivas: It's not close, that's whay a 4bd w/ 3000sf outdoor space and drop dead views went for 2.5M. How much would this go for in the vicinity of CC?

bjw: rivas, probably close to 10x the price.

Not quite, more like $12M to buy and $25K to rent. Most places near CC with a park view go for $2000 - $3000 a square foot, with a couple of notable exceptions.

The problem with $12K a month is that you start bumping into pretty eye-catching places in Manhattan, both in staid uptown areas and hip downtown areas. Said French banker will be left wondering why he would pay a premium in rent relative to price to take said Fort Greene white elephant, which is what $12K a month for $2.85M represents relative to Manhattan.

nada, fair enough. I was thinking of this, which seems to have no outdoor space (probably due to the height?). And of course, $6000 psf is completely insane.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/602685-condo-25-columbus-circle-lincoln-square-new-york

Yep, that's one of the "notable exceptions", the other big one being 15 CPW. The last extremely big apt did $4500 in 2010 in TWC, so that's roughly where that market is. Not sure who'd want the hypothetical terrace on the 74th floor, though. I think the hypothetical place would command $25M in 15 CPW, but that's about it.

Show me an "eye catching" 3200ft 4 bedroom with 3000 ft of outdoor space with panoramic views that you can get for 12k in Manhattan. Maybe some cool 2 bdrms, etc. Even a nice townhouse you would not be able to get for 12k.

Again, I am just being the devil's advocate, because I don't really know what this 26a apartment should rent for, but IF it does rent for 12k, it is a crappy investment property. And I was only looking at it this way due to the "Auction" status. If I could have gotten this thing for $2mm (because maybe nobody was going to show up) then, it becomes a good asset, even if not a primary residence. The reality is nice primary residences almost never look good as investment properties. In manhattan, if you own a nice townhouse and rent it, you will get have a cap rate of about 2% to 3%. This is how it has been for a long time. So my thought was that an investment property in the Williamsburg Bank Building should yield higher than that due to the higher risk of the market (ie - treasuries have lower yield than BBB bonds....risk return). BUT, the price it traded at AND an assumed rent of 12k, gives an approximate cap rate of less than 3%. That's not worth it AS AN INVESTMENT PROPERTY. And everybody here seems to thing 12k is a ridiculous rent, so it becomes an even less interesting investment property.

But as someone said earlier, as a home, at that price, it may be just fine.

Time Warner #67C, 2400ft 2 bedroom. You can buy for $18.5mm or you can rent it for $65k/month. Not that either of those prices have been hit.

Nice job finding the most stupidly-priced unit in the building. Here's one that actually rented for $15.5K and would've sold for $6-7.5M:

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/672298-condo-25-columbus-circle-lincoln-square-new-york

That's only about ~2000 sq ft with no outdoor space, but you could do a 20th floor in a lesser building with ~3000 sq ft and unobstructed park views for about the same price. Now I understand these might be particularly good values, but if I can get $6-7.5M for $15K in prime Manhattan, why would I do $12K for $2.85M in Fort Greene? Better be around $9K to get someone to bite.

Here's 2650 sq ft in a "name" building, park view on 15-20th floor, sitting on the market for 8 months at $14.5K:

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/725217-rental-300-central-park-west-upper-west-side-new-york

There are only about twelve properties currently in ALL of Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens AND Staten Island combined that are renting for $12,000+. I'd say if you're buying this place as an investment, and waiting for the son of an Arab Sheik or some expat banker from French to rent this place for $12,000+, you're an idiot. NEVER gonna happen.

$15.5k for a 2000 ft 2 bedroom. Sounds about right.

Taking it a little personally aren't you madson. Yes, this could likely be one of the best twelve 4bdrm apartments in the other four boroughs.

The only person here who will take it personal is the fool who thinks that after sinking a minimum of 20% down into a $2.5MM+ property with very hefty monthlies in Fort Greene next door to Barclay Stadium and the Atlantic Yards project(s) and across the street from one of the grossest (and not the safest) mall-like shopping areas directly next to the Projects that they're going to get some son of an arab sheik or expat banker from France to pay over $12,000+/month in rent.

That's $15.5K for a 2BR on the 60th floor in one of the top trophy properties that fetches $4000 a sq ft. Here's a ~2000 sq ft 2BR on the 49th floor in a "lesser building" in CC with direct park views that fetched "only" $9-10K (and $2200-ish a sq ft):

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/494080-rental-301-west-57th-street-clinton-new-york

Your beloved One Hanson apt could only fetch $600 a sq ft for 2-2.5x the space, including consideration for the outdoor space. Would you pay 25% more to rent double the space in Fort Greene on the 26th floor compared to the 49th in CC with park views? If you would, you are the Fort Greene investor's wet dream because the sales market charges 50% more for the CC apt.

clt89, I know you're playing devil's advocate; I'm just playing devil's advocate's poker.

Out of curiousity, where & in what do you roughly live? I ask to get some perspective on where your comments are coming from.

Madson, Who said they would pay 2.5mm+ with 20% down.

inonada, i understand the economics don't work, that's why i was willing to jump in if there was a dearth of bidders. i would have been happy to own that apartment at 2mm.
But you still just keep showing 2bdrm comps. 4bdrm and 3000 feet of prime outdoor space (not some grimy brownstone backyard surrounded by high buildings) is going to simply a totally different price point in any market. That other comp I gave may be been ridiculous, but the reality is that isn't too far off of where 4 or 5bdrms in Time Warner are "trying" to sell for.

But I take everybody's point about the dicey neighborhood around Hanson Place. Just feel that it is closeminded to assume that there is absolutely 0 possiblity of young money making that type of move. For example, the poor guy who bought at 3bdrm there for $2mm last month is a successful agent for IMG. He made the leap to that neighborhood. (As it turns out the same apartment auctioned off for around $1.5mm (after costs). That sucks for him, but the point is that he did buy it. And that was why I was at that Auction, because it isn't impossible for a good deal to be had at those events. You never know. But I didn't do it because I didn't like the numbers, so I'm not interested in hearing people with apparent chips on their shoulder like madson above lash out with comments about fools and morons.

Yet more examples of large, family-sized condos selling in Brooklyn. This has been an impressive run. Shocked that people are still paying these prices. One at OPP, two at the Edge.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2011/05/last_weeks_bigg_165.php

How about this one at Northside Piers:

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2011/05/12/what_a_27_million_williamsburg_supercondo_looks_like.php

Inonada, i live in an upper east side townhouse with 4 kids in 3 different nearby schools. Moving to Brooklyn was a fleeting thought as the center of our gravity is in this neighborhood with the schools. But the reality is that many people send their kids to the hill schools in Riverdale from all over manhattan and that commute (I am assured) just isn't a life changer for them, especially as the kids get older. I really like the feel of many of those brooklyn neighborhoods. The more time I spend there the more I like the vibe. And I am not alone. This Hanson foray would have likely been an investment, but it, by no means would have been impossible to make it our home. Downstairs are the subways without any transfers to Wall Street, Midtown, Upper East Side, Upper West Side, all the places I would care about getting to. If all goes well, from the elevator in Hanson Place to the 96th and Lex subway stop is doable in less than 25 minutes. But having said that, right now all the kids have a 2 to 10 minute walk to their respective schools.

Got it clt89. Given that you have 4 kids more than me, I can see why you care about lots of BRs. For me, I'd rather have that much space configured as 2 or 3BRs.

Finding exact matches to 3200 sq ft interior plus 3000 sq ft exterior w/ views is just hard to do because there are so few such places anywhere, Manhattan or Brooklyn, so I have to show properties similar in spirit.

In that spirit, I offer this 4600 sq ft 5BR on the 43rd floor with views in all 4 directions, including direct river and far park. It went for no more than $16K, possibly as low as $14K:

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/486478-condo-200-riverside-boulevard-lincoln-square-new-york

Please don't respond with "but there's no outdoor space" because then I'll ask you to show me 4600 sq ft 5BR in Brooklyn w/ views, blah-blah. What do you think? $16K for Manhattan on the UWS, near 2 parks, helicopter views from the 43rd floor, a bedroom for you and EACH of your kids with common rooms covering 4600 sq ft. Or $12K for the Fort Greene place, "mere" 26th floor, kids sharing a bedroom, scrunched into a tight 3200 sq ft w/ a 3000 sq ft terrace too high up & therefore windy all the time?

I agree w/ your assessment, BTW. At $2M, it would start looking like a plausible investment.

That looks like a nice apartment but the prices are from 3/09 to 11/09, a period of complete capitulation in the market. My bet is that the apartment would easily rent for $16k today, maybe higher. So it starts to be a different price point. And while some people may like it, I find that spot like living in Atlanta. Barely can call it manhattan. But still radically nicer area than Hanson location. I still believe that Hanson is a very unique asset (which makes it hard to comp), and the very nicest apartment in that building may work out well for somebody. In fact, commute to most places in Manhattan is easier from Atlantic/Flatbush than from 60th and Riverside. Yes wind would be a bummer on that terrace, but have you walked around on Riverside in the winter? It's like a wind tunnel as well. Thanks for your input. I think I'm done thinking about this.

Yeah, RS is a wind tunnel all year-round. I don't think the high-end rental market has much moved from late 2009: the other examples I pointed out that are more recent have similar price-to-rent ratios. But $16K is indeed on the side of "a very good price", as was everything else I pointed out. Anyways, it's been fun.

clt--carnegie hill live/school vs atlantic yards??--glad for your kids' sake you arent doing this

and you are dopin smoke if you think avg trip from front door at 1hp to frt door, say, at nightingale b is less than 45 mins each way--longer if there's a wait for the 4, or the switch to the 6--and they will stand for this ride, wasting time/energy--

kids at r'dale and h mann have friends all over the ues and uws--few if any from carn hill schools or HM/r'dale live in brooklyn, let alone in atl yards

"and you are dopin smoke if you think avg trip from front door at 1hp to frt door, say, at nightingale b is less than 45 mins each way"

Not what he said - from 1HP to the 86/Lex 4/5 stop is a half hour (less if you're lucky and a train's there). Of course the walk to 92/Madison tacks on a good 10 minutes to that. But that's beside the point, bottoms - I thought kids just didn't commute to school? Weird, huh?

"Somewhereelse, do you really think i was comparing price points and desirability of Time Warner with Williamsburg. I think you missed the point."

No, you were comparing traffic, which I specifically addressed under your quote.

I also separately responded to wbottom's points, where I mentioned him by name.

"The only person here who will take it personal is the fool who thinks that after sinking a minimum of 20% down into a $2.5MM+ property with very hefty monthlies in Fort Greene next door to Barclay Stadium and the Atlantic Yards project(s) and across the street from one of the grossest (and not the safest) mall-like shopping areas directly next to the Projects that they're going to get some son of an arab sheik or expat banker from France to pay over $12,000+/month in rent."

Thinking about this some more, I think the buildings across from Penn Station (Epic, etc.) might make for better comparisons than Columbus Circle... that comparison was just whack.