Crazy Mother In Law

Guess it depends on how long you want her around...those stairs will probably kill her pretty fast.

It sounds as if she moves in with you, it may not be for a very long time.

this is a very funny thread... :)

The word "no" comes to mind. Get a backbone.

Have her try it out for a week.

She'll end up on the ground floor one way or another.

It's kind of a self-limiting problem. . .

or she'll become a shut-in and you'll be running to the deli for her three times a day.

do not do it.

What does your spouse think?

Wife had wanted her to move in with us (now looks more uncertain). She had been planning to move into the ground floor until the week we were going to sign the contract. We had execution versions of the contract in hand, then my mother in law told us she didn't want to move in with us, unless she got the top floor!

After I yelled at my wife and anyone else that would listen about how much that did NOT work for us, I conceded, since my wife said it was a deal-breaker...

However, it just doesn't sit well with me, since it hurts the flow of the whole house...

Definitely ground floor! Play out every third-floor scenario and then imagine them on steroids.

You're talking a townhouse? The way it might play out, regardless of what is said beforehand, is that she'll effectively have access 24/7 to your apt whether or not she sleeps there.

Is your mother-in-law halping with purchase money?

Juat asking because if so, that might be what's letting her think she can call the shots, rather than just being happy and grateful that her daughter and son-in-law are nice enough to have her live with them.

PH41: Very good question. She is contributing 1/4 of the total cost. We're nice, but not that nice...

I am protecting her on the downside - if there is a significant loss, I will make her 75% whole (i.e., if she were putting in $100, I wouldn't let it go below $75). We're also subsidizing her expenses.

what does her son say about this...sounds like she's lonely.

"rather than just being happy and grateful that her daughter and son-in-law are nice enough to have her live with them."

would you really want your parents in their old age after everything they have done for you to feel like such a helpless and pathetic imposition?

Pawn - sounds like you cannot just say "don't need your money, go live somewhere else", but the next question is - is the brownstone built,or being built as totally separate apartments? In other words, could you rent out the first floor (or top floor) apartment to a stranger for rental income?

If not, then I agree with NYC10023 - basically if she's on the top floor, your apartment will be both your apartment and her apartment whenever she feels she can't make it up the stairs (and that day will probably be coming sooner than she is willing to admit).

Then again the "stairolataor" or whatever they call that chair thing for stairs will be in YOUR apartment on the lower floors.

it's the wheelchair lift. i see 4 of these in op's future

Hmm, pardon me for changing your question, pawn. But should the question be rephrased as:

If my parent is contributing 1/4 of the dp (and ongoing?) cost of our multi-family TH (assume it's in yours and partner's names only), how do we decide where said parent is housed in TH? And how do we decide going forward how to adjust parent's housing needs as they change. Also, how do we address issues of boundaries & privacy so that we can share a TH while maintaining a peaceful co-existence?

tell her to go see "Forks Over Knives".

Alright. So a flat "no" won't work.
When dealing with aging parents, you absolutely MUST remain realistic. They sometimes will not and do not accept/aknowledge their increasing or imminent limitations as you do. While it may seem the loving, caring thing to do, playing along with them is neither kind nor productive. What your wife's mom is wanting is not practical. An injury, illness or age will make the top floor impractical and place tremendous burden on your wife, you and the marriage. You may have to move her a second time. You may have to run lots of errands for her or help her negotiate stairs she shouldn't be trying to go up/down. All relationships will be strained.

Take a reasoned approach. It must be explained that you and your wife have discussed this and considered all angles. That the top floor is not reasonable and involves too many risks and strains on how you all get along--and that a positive relationship with her is something you both value tremendously. And you can express your concerns about the impact problems that arise could have on your marriage. Explore in greater detail the reservations she has about the ground floor. Ask what could be done to make it more appealing to her. Perhaps brighter paint colors, comfortable furniture for the patio/garden, ... Stress how you know her continued independence is something she wants to maintain and that you value that too. And the ground floor is the best way to insure that independence to the extent possible.

But the mere contribution of funds does not mean she gets to make irrational decisions that fly in the face of her physical condition, could ultimately limit her independence, and worst of all could erode the happiness in your marriage and relationship with her.

No-one has addressed the lack of light.

The garden floors of many THs lack light. This is true. Can the budget extend to knocking out the back wall and giving her a wall of windows? Or doing a 1-story extension and having both large garden-facing windows/doors & skylights?

forget about an injury, illness, or age. could she actually make it to the top now? she obviously isn't an active person. suggest that she walk 4 flights of stairs 2-3x a day for a week and then reassess.

nyc: I did address the light. I said paint! But you are right. More can be done. Before she sees it again, maybe OP can install more bright lighting. Older people's vision tends to dim and a dark spot is even darker for them. Put in brighter bulbs. Plenty of overhead lighting would be great. Really make it literally "bright" in there.

And clean the windows. It may not change the light, but it changes the perception of being closed in.

AR's right--once she's up there she's not coming down. It'll be you doing the food runs, medication runs--not to mention cleaning up after her. You're in power now--now's the time to say no. Once she gets in you can kiss your freedom goodbye.

This is what you do: you invite her to the house to consider all the options. Walk up at a nice clip, let her ohhh! and ahh!, agree, walk back down to the garden floor, then realize you left the keys upstairs. Make her walk back up a second time. Watch her change her mind.

ditto kyle

paint the room a warm white. clean the windows and get those white shades that are soft blinds inside white organza, someone will know what they're called. put some flowers on the window sill. clean up the garden and "carelessly" arrange some seating furniture in the best spot. bird feeder? SELL the first floor.

I suspect OP's mother-in-law is more than capable of climbing those stairs for now and nothing they say will really change her preference. That's not to say that she would not accept the ground floor in the end. However, regardless of where she ends up, someone will be unhappy from day one.

If my spouse and I were in this situation, I would either exclude the in-law in the purchase (execising veto power) or let my spouse make the decision as to which floor the in-law would occupy. I will point out the pros and cons, but that's about it.

Definitely go for it, but only if you and the wife are beneficiaries on an existing LI policy. Hard not to get caught if you pay for the policy and she checks out a week later.

I really agree with all the points Kylewest has made but realistically these decisions are very difficult. I would suggest that your wife go over the cons of the top floor and have one or two older friends/relatives there to impress the point. I think you are too far down the road to change directions at this point so you will have to make do with her decision whether it is top or bottom floor.
I will tell you a family story though. When we moved to Alaska, we built a large house complete with a basement floor (ground level and NOT below) apartment with two bedrooms/living area/small kitchen and bath. This was for my Mom who at this point needed to live with us for both family and her financial reasons. Mom loved the house the minute she saw it and promptly chose one of the top floor bedrooms (same floor as us) for where she would live. We couldn't talk her out of it however graciously we tried...and yes, i am married to a saint. However, it didn't pose a problem in the long run as her hearing was compromised and she LOVED doing the stairs as she felt it was a good way to get her daily exercise at age 71. Must be true as she lived with us another 17 years and that included homes in charlotte, hong kong and Hilton head! Never had to put in an elevator until the very last move and she only used it if it was absolutely necessary or she was showing off to guests. AND never was a man loved more than her son-in-law...

I guess another consideration she should consider is how much she plans to entertain and what kind of shape her friends are in. My folks are a spritely 70 and 74 and a few flights doesn't even register with them. But there are 60 year olds who can hardly get in and out of a car let alone negotiate 3 flights. If mom wants to have friends over, will they really be able to get up to the top floor? What about in a year or two or three? Something to bring up.

Sunday - have you ever seen an overweight, (almost) elderly person climb multiple flights of stairs? it ain't pretty. and really, if she's being honest with herself, she doesn't want to climb those stairs. she just wants a nice place to live (and currently, the ground floor is not meeting her expectations). you'll just have to make the ground floor as appealing to her as possible b/c the top floor is not an option. the garden should be a HUGE selling point, as should ease of coming and going.

it's done Pawn. top floor is not happening. take it out of the equation.

Rosina: good point & your partner is a saint. Could be that Pawn's mother-in-law is rejecting the ground floor not because of light or anything else, but has a need to feel wanted and be an integral part of your family. If she shares an entrance (or an apt!), she will see you far more than if she has her own entrance.
But, really, it's your wife's job to convince her.

oh goodness... another reason why the top floor is not an option.

Well, even if she were on the ground floor, I think the implicit deal is that they're gonna be responsible for eldercare...

She wants to see her daughter (and presumably, grandchildren) - otherwise why would she offer 1/4 of dp, and move in to start with. Now, it sounds like she's feeling left out, shunted away to a dingy "basement" apt with a separate entry so they would be able to go days w/o seeing her other than garbage days.

Uwsmom: funny thought - all the RC tenants (never met one under 65) I know who have to climb stairs are thin and spry. Cause and effect?

unlikely a coincidence.

if she's living in the home, boundaries are already broken, so it really doesn't matter if she's on the top floor or ground level (separate entrance or not). it's all one big happy family under one roof. she could be living in the bedroom next to theirs and still feel lonely and left out.

uwsmom, if OP's in-law is not capable of climbing those stairs, there would be no need for this thread.

exactly my point.

I think it makes a difference as to boundaries if she's on the top floor, and more privy to their comings & goings v. garden floor.

" Now, it sounds like she's feeling left out, shunted away to a dingy "basement" apt with a separate entry so they would be able to go days w/o seeing her other than garbage days. "

that's totally it. which is why P_H has to make that first floor place very very light, homey, cheerful, push the gardening, reading in the garden, drinking tea (or whatnot) in the garden, playing cards with her little girlfieds in the garden. get a card table! make her feel wanted and welcome. once she's there it would help if you immidiately made up a schedule of when you guys will spend quality time with grandma. like...weekends she eats breakfast/brunch with you unless you are going out. maybe you can make up a new bedtime tradition of grandma coming up to read the bedtime story. how often do you want to dine with her? always make that schedule for the week, stick to it, and your family should be ok.

A whole generation of older parents worry about being 'shunted off to the basement' and no matter what you say, it is the picture in their minds. Perhaps it would be better to give the top floor a try but keep the bottom floor an option until after the first year. I know this is asking a lot but the solution may find itself in that period of time.
Good luck and you will get thru this but more importantly you are a good husband and a good son in law...

'I am well aware of the pros and cons of the top floor vs. the ground floor. However, after considering all the factors, I prefer to live on the top floor. I also totally understand why my son-in-law and daughter would prefer that I live on the ground floor, but since I am contributing 1/4 of the *total cost*, I want to spend a few years on the top floor while I am still able to climb those stairs. I would rather stay where I am than *downgrade* to a ground level apartment with limited light.

Why do you assume that just because I am 65 years old, I am no longer capable of making sound decisions? At what age did I lose that ability to make reasonable and realistic decisions. At what age did *my preference* not count anymore? At what age am I no longer capable of evaluating risk vs. reward? At what age did you know better than me what is right for me? At what age did you find it more convenient to think that you know better what is best for me?'

funny!

"Why do you assume that just because I am 65 years old, I am no longer capable of making sound decisions?" - b/c you are no longer making sound decisions. you are 65+, overweight, and have heart problems. why would you WANT to climb 4 flights of stairs multiple times a day if you don't have to? now let's discuss what this is really about.

'I do not WANT to climb the stairs, but I CAN, for now anyway. I will not be climbing 4 flights of stairs in one shot that often because I will be making stops at the middle floors. If my doctor tells me I cannot climb a couple of flights of stairs *slowly*, I would reconsider. Again, yes, I know there are risks, but I feel that the reward is worth the risk. In any case, I do not want to pay 1/4 of the cost of a nice brownstone to live in the dungeon! I would rather just stay where I am!'

provided she doesnt end up shutting in upstairs, the stair-climbing might provide exercise such that her health improves

Sunday: And your "preferences" are without regard to the impact you will have on others. How about taking into account some other people for a change. You've got this deal set up where you won't end up in a senior home. You're blessed. Now you want to disrupt and impose on your daughter's family so that in this act of hubris and unbending stubborness you can feed your denial about the changes you have and are undergoing physically. To indulge you will likely mean that you will be requiring this young couple to be running favors for you constantly, that you may be in a complete jam if you twist an ankle or have any medical issue/procedure that makes that stairs tough for even a couple of week. You don't give any thought to the difficulty and annoyance you will put others through when you realize this folly and consent to move downstairs. What are they supposed to do with the basement while you live upstairs? Just hold it open for you? If not they'll have to move out of the basement to move you in later...a real pain. And if they hold it open, you will essentially be taking 2 floors of their new home. All of this sounds foolish. You are being selfish and irrational.

This is why at some point children become the parents of their mom and dad and have to help guide and protect them from unwise decisions. It happens in 90% of families.

I'm with 23, Sunday, and (this may be a first) Wbottom.

ali r.

http://www.parans.com/eng/

my parents live on the third floor of a walk up and everytime we want them to move they keep saying it's good exercise...

Perhaps as the child who, in my family, has been the most involved, by far, with the care of my grandmother (who died last year at 91), and now my grandfather (who is 93), I see it differently. I am also the one of my siblings who has invited my parents to live with me and has created an apartment for them in my second home--they are quite able now but were beginning to think about the future. All of this has invaluable rewards to offer to people on both sides of the equation. But it only works if boundaries are set and respected. If not, it becomes a big resentment festival. And the boundaries go both ways. Just because "I raised you" does not mean the children must accept every choice, however unwise or however much of an imposition. Here, accommodations will be superb even in the basement, family will be around for company and caregiving when needed, living expenses will be subsidized or completely taken care of...and on top of this you are going to insist on living in a space that is just illogical and an imposition. I find that unreasonable.

come on you guys. there are many other ways to get exercise w/o imposing on your family members. perhaps moving to the top floor will be life changing for MIL and she will take up running and weight lifting. anyone who thinks the top floor is the better option is not being realistic (sympathetic maybe, but not realistic).

I suggest the best mid-priced senior citizen home her social security check can buy. NFW I would ever let my mother-in-law move in with me.

http://www.imdb.com/find?s=all&q=mother%20in%20law

'I am 65, not 85 yrs old! I can take care of myself for MANY more years. If wanting to enjoy my golden years while I still can enjoy it is selfish, well, as a parent for so many years, it's time for me to be a little selfish. It is not like I will stop by your floors any time I feel like it. There will be specific timeframes where I would drop by; I like the view from the top floor more anyway. Besides, if I am such an imposition, go buy the place yourself without me contributing 1/4 of the *total cost* which is probably more than what you are putting in as a downpayment. I will just keep my money and stay where I am. If I want to visit the grandkids, I will come visit; don't think you can drop them off whenever you like as if I live upstairs.'

'Why don't YOU stop being so self-centered and be thankful I am contributing such a large amount to the downpayment so that you can buy this nice place!'

well Sunday, as you've said 3 or 4 times now, i think it may be best for you to stay where you are. you are one unpleasant and demanding MIL.

i imagine it's very hard to get old, to lose some of your autonomy, to feel dependent on children/grandchildren/nieces/nephews. i imagine it could make one very angry (i.e. very sad).

"I am 65, not 85 yrs old! I can take care of myself for MANY more years..."

Well, that is not true. It may be for some 65 year olds, but not you. You are overweight and have serious health issues involving your heart. It is highly debatable whether you can take care of yourself for many more years. That is partially why we think it would be great to share a home. We get the pleasure of your sunny personality, the grandchild benefit, and you have a built in sort of insurance policy that when the time comes that you need more care or when you have additional heart issues, we are here to help. Yet, you still get your privacy and independence. Downstairs. It is a compromise, we understand. But life is full of compromise. Your health and physical condition make this the best solution. Now let's make the downstairs the perfect home. And stop being such a contrarian and ignoring reality or I'll put you in time out.

Have her institutionalized. Steal things from her and have her think she has alzheimer. Then tell her she wanted the bottom floor unit.

Or if all else fails, shoot her and take the cannolis.

My mother in law called the cops on me the other day. She thought I stole her cell phone. There I was with a big cop, 80yo lady. Me in my pjs. I took out my cell phone called her. And there it rang... In her inner purse. She carries 4 purses within purses it's like a russian nesting doll.

Getting old is a bitch. If someone has to wipe my azz, time to shoot myself. Unless the wipee is hot.

What a nightmare. I thought my ex-MIL was a nightmare b/c she would drop in unannounced and stay for months at a time. She also turned the place into a pigsty. But your MIL sounds bossy, indecisive, and wants to live with you. That trumps me.

Maybe it's time to consider letting mother and daughter live together and you live, comfortably and peaceably, on your OWN! If there are no kids involved, i'd go the divorce route.

w67thstreet, you're lying. 80-year-olds' phones only ring aloud in theaters.

'Stop calling me fat (overweight)! How many people couldn't benefit from losing 10 or 20 lbs? Sure I had some "heart problems" in the past, but again, a little high in cholesterol, minor hypertension, and had a couple of cardiac catherization, but that's just the doctors being extra cautious and to milk Medicare. Look, if my doctor is telling me I would have a heart attack if I try to climb those stairs, we would not need to have this discussion. Yes, life is full of compromises and it's not that I don't understand or care about your concerns, I really do, but being in the dungeon just doesn't work for me, especially considering the amount of money I am contributing to the downpayment. Maybe I can only enjoy the top floor for another 3 or 5 years, but those years will be the best years I have left. Some day I will have no choice but be placed in the dungeon... Today is not that day.'

Slow fade........THE END.

alan, careful, in 7 years you don't want people talking about you that way.

mother-in-law:1

Pawn_Harvester:ZERO

old lady wins

sudden death?
he he

I think Pawn's MIL should move in with Sunday.

Interestingly, she just backed out of the house... (going to look for a coop in queens. )

More interestingly, my parents are taking her place... they are open to the ground floor! Perhaps my wife will draft the next discussion topic...

Thanks for all of your awesome feedback.

Life is too short to live without your family near by.
Mom-in law gets to be on bottom cause that's the way it is b/c only a deluded 65 yr old will think that she will not age. Mommy, it's a deal breaker. Bottom floor or the highway. She needs to live there much more than you need her money. Need more light? Buy more lamps.

Sorry mommy....tuff love.

With your parents firmly ensconced in the basement apartment, your MiL will be able to wrest the top floor from you. What is it they say? ... Checkmate?

ha! all this time P_H thought she was crazy, when she's really crazy smart! well played, mom.

Pawn_Harvester
Your parental dedication is admirable.
So this townhouse/assisted living center your thinking of purchasing....
Any idea if that's a good long term plan?
Sometimes folks that throw in $$$, even 25%, consider themselves full on owners but, not responsible for the on going costs of operating the property. i.e. we would love to help with the (repairs/electricity/roof/boiler/fire damage) but, as you know we live on a fixed income so.....no.
By the way son...why did you ever marry that horrid women....
it doesn't always turn into 'everyone loves Raymond', sometimes it turns out to be 'Bewitched'...get my drift Derwood?
That's why you PICK your friends, not your family.

Pawn...I take back all that sht about good husband/good son in law. This is now bordering on just plain stupid! Families that live together usually do it out of necessity and that said necessity is what keeps it all grounded and emotions in check. This situation has red flags waving frantically without even a breeze in the air! Go buy a place you can afford all by yourselves and enjoy the hell out of it.

Falco - you can PICK your friends. you can pick your nose. you cannot pick your friends' nose. think about it...

Rosina - with over 4,500 square feet, why not have some family around...

>Sometimes folks that throw in $$$, even 25%, consider themselves full on owners but, not responsible for the on going costs of operating the property.

She has no marginal cost for the ongoing property maintenance. The property will still cost what it costs with or without her.

So she's advancing her inheritance to the family.

I'm pretty ashamed at people's attitudes towards this mother in law who simply wants to be with family. She can live on the top floor for a few years, and if it makes sense in the future because of physical limitations, move down to a low floor.

In fairness, I guess if you expect your elderly relative to be as infectiously miserable as columbiacounty, I'd understand why some of these negative points of view have been expressed.

"you cannot pick your friends' nose"

true ... so what I do, because my friends don't share one nose, is pick each of their noses individually.

Pawn, You are catching me late in the evening after a couple of glasses of wine...usually not a good thing as my kids will attest to but i will try to expound upon my feelings. When you first began this saga, I felt you were trying to help an aging relative that perhaps needed some financial assistance or the security of family near by. But as the saga continues, it seems you just need live bodies on the ground floor that can pay the entry fees. I realize that 4500 square feet is a lot of living space for new yorkers but that being said, it is rather common in the rest of the country. And it is close proximity for family to live together both peacefully and amicably. Rules and boundaries need to be set but because it is family after all, they are often hard to address. Family situations can dictate a need and within that need, certain obligations are understood but as your story unfolds, i don't see that there is anyone particularly needy, just family in general looking for opportunity. There is where i see the red flags waving...furiously. I would respectfully suggest that this is not an opportune time to be looking for family tenants but rather to look for a home that can be enjoyed without problems looming on the horizon. The parents are young enough to still be independent and perhaps later on in life you all can address your respective needs. Sorry if i sounded a little harsh in the last post...

We want our parents around - both my and my wife's parents treck to our current apartment from from their various places. There are plenty of times that one parent or another sleeps on our pull out couch or leaves past midnight...

It's not a cost of entry question. I'm sure I could find plenty of use for the space. Or alternatively, the ground floor apartment would rent for $2,000 per month, maybe $2,500 if I threw in the cellar.

My first post was trying to guage whether I was right in thinking my MIL was crazy for wanting the top floor. I believe the good people on streeteasy believe "yes". Untimately, it turns out she was just using the top floor as a way to communicate she no longer wanted to honor her agreement with me to partner on our house. My wife and I told her 10 times that she didn't need to make the move - she finally listened...

Then my parents jumped at the opportunity. Who could blame them - I would if I were them.

Would you be able to get the necessary loan without the parents' contribution? What percentage of the total cost are your parents contributing? Do they get the same deal as your MIL?

I actaully have the loan without their contribution. They get the same deal as my MIL - 25% for 1 of 4 floors.

Will you and your wife at least wind up with two of the four floors, or is there yet another relative in the picture?

Pawn_Harvester, it sounds great. in most of the world several generations live together and help eachother. THAT is normal. the way we live is just a temporary fleeting luxury we've bought ourselves in the last, what, 50 years? little more? good for you and the mrs. for including your parents in your future. your own children see this and they'll do the same for you. good luck.

He'd grown up just like me
My boy was just like me
AND THE CATS IN THE CRADLE...

truth?

If I was the mother-in-law I'd take the garden apartment. It's weird coming back late at night with new men and climbing the stairs past your family hopping they don't hear the bed springs. Down stairs the gentlemen callers can be discreetly entertained and dismissed without a lot of "Grandma, Why were your screaming out the lords name last night and begging him to spank you"?

You said she's old....not dead.

Pawn_Harvester, direct MiL and parents alike to http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Delray-Beach_FL/price-3000-8000 ... good light, no stairs

"My mother in law called the cops on me the other day. She thought I stole her cell phone. There I was with a big cop, 80yo lady. Me in my pjs. I took out my cell phone called her. And there it rang... In her inner purse. She carries 4 purses within purses it's like a russian nesting doll."

@ w.67: That's classic... thanks for the laugh!

alan, stop sending people to delray. this is why no one likes new yorkers, because they're mean!

"No one" in Delray Beach, or "no one" amongst Golden Agers?

is no one one word? i separate everything suspect, just in case. delray is ok, i guess. they have that one avenue with stuff that's cute. not the one along the water, the perpendicular one.

No, it's two words. I was just emphasizing it to determine who is meant by the phrase.

I really like Delray at the beach and the quaint downtown, but Kings Point is inland and barracks-like ... but as a winter palace, not so bad, especially at $6000 to own.

sorry, delray is nice, i'm just being an ass. but you'll never make me say the same about boca. i choose death.

We have to covet Delray.
It is one of those places in the sun that will accecpt asshole New Yorkers as one of their own.
The beach is beautiful but, the real parental unit action is to the west, off Jog Road in the many gated geizer ghettos.

Dinner at Henrey's..............NOOOOO NOT AGAIN! (who eats dinner at 4:30?)
How in the world can you justify Two Walgreens in one strip mall? (a population with a poor short term memory...that's how)

Dead stright roads with 4 lanes in both directions...
Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges Strip Mall Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges Fountain at Gated Community Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges spanish tiled roof Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges Strip Mall Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges Hedges

Addison Mizner must die

If he's the one that built Addison Reserve, I'll get the gun.