Why is RE so d$#%!d expensive?!

56 hrs of OT per week????? wtf???

all of the buildings built in past 10 yrs will start falling down in the next 10. or we'll just turn to asia where something that's 30 yrs old is ready to be torn down. don't bother fixing things or remodeling, just build new.

96 hour work weeks when unemployment is at record levels?

Sounds like some managers need to be fired.

And if bubble pricing didn't allow horribly incompetent builders to stay in business, they would be.

This is a repeat of a story that was in the NYT 3 months ago. The wages and benefits are rediculous, including for some no-work jobs, although these salary/overtime levels were intentionally exaggerated by the real estate industry. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/09/nyregion/09cranes.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print

"It says about 50 workers are in unnecessary positions, such as relief crane operators, mandated by the union contract. "

Why is this a surprise? Has no one ever watched an episode of the Sopranos?

I'd like to see you operate a relief crane ... not so easy, is it?

cmon alan, cant be too hard. fred flinstone did it....

I think that just means that the fellow relieves himself on the crane, collect $90 per hour.

In the context of putting up a residential high rise, it's far from the top cost. To the extent that the union provides a standard that ensures competant people are manning the cranes, then this is one positive aspect of unions.

crane operators will save Manhattan RE..

hopefully their obese, lazy union spawn will just be disillusioned enough (read hovering around 168 - 215 lbs) to think they are carry bradshaw and ask daddy for a cute pad in hamilton heights

"56 hrs of OT per week????? wtf???"

As a union member, let me attempt to shed some light on this.

Speaking from my own experience of enforcing (yes, and even writing) union contracts, it's not all about "overtime".

First of all, that $500K figure includes ALL compensation, including pension and health benefits. The writer gives the perception that the worker is actually taking home a $500K paycheck, which couldn't be further from the truth.

"A relief crane operator working 56 hours of overtime per week for 52 weeks will earn $332,667 in overtime and $159,053 in overtime benefits at the World Trade Center." There is "overtime" and there are "benefits". But there is no such thing as "overtime benefits". The writer clearly does not know what he is talking about. But hey, he writes for the Wall Street Journal, so he must know what he's talking about, right?

The $159K figure presumably covers pension and health. This is non-monetary compensation.

So let's look at the $332K figure, which is the real "overtime" pay. It's actually extremely difficult to actually "work" 56 hours of overtime, and I'll admit there is most likely a lot of timesheet padding going on here. But remember ... ALL TIMESHEETS ARE EVENTUALLY SIGNED OFF BY MANAGEMENT. You can bitch and moan all you want about corrupt and greedy union members, but every single one of them is hired and supervised by non-union MANAGEMENT.

And let's talk about the difference between overtime compensation and actually "working" overtime in a union environment. I can't speak for the blue collar union contracts, but MY union contract allowed for "overtime pay" to kick in after 6.5 hours. The reason for this is because of the nature of the jobs, we couldn't take "lunch hours" like regular workers ... nor could we even take breaks. The jobs are focused and intense and demand 100% uninterrupted attention. So management agreed that in exchange for working through a lunch hour and not even getting a couple of 15-minute breaks (as mandated by state and federal law), our "workdays" were to be 6.5 hours. Fine. But then came the staffing cutbacks, and a new crop of managers, not understanding the nature of the work, deciding it's insane to work these people "only" 6.5 hours, so they boosted the workday to a solid 8 hours. Then it turned into 8.5 hours. Then 9. Then 9.5 Pretty soon it turned into a 10-hour day for the union members. But managers were working similar hours, so they saw nothing wrong with this (never mind the fact that the union workers were not entitled to the two-hour, three-martini lunches that managers were regularly taking, but I digress).

Thank God for the union contract, however, which mandated OT pay after 6.5 hours. But what started out as an economic disincentive to overwork employees became a standard business practice. The media companies found that even paying daily overtime to a smaller pool of union workers was still cheaper than running at full staff. So the "forced overtime" became institutionalized. Just working your normal job meant you got your standard base pay, plus 3.5 hours of OT PER DAY. That's 17.5 hours of OT, paid at time and a half. That translates into full salary plus more than half salary.

And that's just for working your regular job. Now factor in working some REAL overtime, which might include pulling a double shift for someone who's called in sick after you. Or being called in on your day off. Or working holidays (triple time-and-a-half).

But wait, there's more. There are other bells and whistles to many union contracts. My contract entitled me to extra half-pay for "overnight differential" -- any hours worked outside of 7 AM to 10 PM. I was also entitled to a short-turnaround penalty, which basically means if I have to work, say 9 AM - 5 PM, and the "in time" for my next "day" was actually just seven hours later, at midnight (which, according to the bean-counters, is the "next day"), because I was not given a full 16 hour break in between shifts, the entirety of the upcoming shift would be time-and-a-half.

Then there's the "36/60 Violation", which provided me DOUBLE PAY for any shift that interrupted my weekend, PLUS regular OT because the shift pushed me past the "40 hour" workweek.

And then there was my personal favorite, the Golden Time penalty. This was an extremely expensive penalty that companies worked diligently to avoid at all costs, and usually only happened in times of extreme emergency (9/11 and the start of the Iraq War in recent memory). This kicks in after you've worked ten consecutive days; you've worked your five days, then both weekend days, and have now started into a new week. After ten days, EVERY HOUR you work until your next REGULARLY SCHEDULED day off is paid at ... drumroll please ... TRIPLE TIME AND A HALF ... *in addition to* any other OT and "normally incurred" penalties like overnight differential and short-turnaround.

So. What does this all mean? Does this mean we union people are all evil money-grubbers?

Yes, some of us are. But keep in mind that for many 24/7 industries like media, the potential is always there for employers to really abuse employees, fuck up their body clocks, their health, and their personal lives with insane work demands like working 72 hours straight because managers couldn't get their act together and do a proper schedule.

These penalties were all originally intended as ECONOMIC DISINCENTIVES. Since companies tend to be run by cruel and heartless bean-counters who don't give a rat's ass about the humanity of their "human resources", the only language they really understand at the bargaining table is dollars and cents. So the penalties were written into the contract: If you want to work our people to death, you're at least going to pay through the nose to do it. Most of the time, managers -- working with anorexic budgets to begin with -- are very careful not to spend one penny more than they have to. So they keep the scheduling and workload abuses to a minimum.

Other times, however, it can't be helped, given today's obsession with doing more with less staff.

And, of course, factoring in those union members who ARE trying to "cash in" by working extra shifts. In the end, however, they are only hurting themselves; eventually you reach the point of diminishing returns with the overtime shifts, and the OT pay becomes "blood money", as we in the industry often call it.

Of course, I'm talking about white-collar entertainment unions here, where it's all high-road and civilized. I cannot speak for the historically corrupt Tony Soprano-type blue collar unions that have employed that whole thug factor. In the construction trade, I'm sure there are plenty of union abuses.

"because of the nature of the jobs, we couldn't take "lunch hours" like regular workers ... nor could we even take breaks. The jobs are focused and intense and demand 100% uninterrupted attention."

... wow, unemployment is so much more difficult today than it used to be. I don't know how you keep up the pace.

One of these days, Alan ...

Turn it off.

I'd like to turn YOU off, beyatch.

NYCMatt,

if ur explanation is that u need a OT after 6.5 hours instead of 8 since you don't due to 'intense work, and not having enough time for a regular lunch break..

...then how do u explain the time in the middle of the day to write an essay with time to spell check??

..and your constant participation in the boards... arent u too busy working?
"The Real Estate Board there are currently 14 unproductive workers at the World Trade Center earning $400,000 or more in regular pay and overtime."

..now back to "work" ya go

So nycmatt, basically on 9-11, when thousands were killed, when police and fire were working overtime to save the city, when all of NYC was at our lowpoint ... And at the start of the Iraq War, when our troops were in danger ... Your union was collecting triple time and a half in addition to other penalties and other wages, as a punishment because you all had your body clocks disrupted and personal lives impacted?

Also Nycmatt, with all that overtime or "blood money" because of your messed up body clock, the best you could save up for was Fort George?

NYCMatt: regardless of whether I agree with all thr details of what you just wrote, I thank you for that great explanation - really eye opening, and very transparent. TYVM.

Matt: You're a union member? I thought you do voice-over work.

Hi,ho: Most people who work from home and especially writers, need a break at times during the day to refresh.
streeteasy is the pause that refreshes and then we go back to working again.

Hi-ho, hi-ho
it's off to work we go...

"...then how do u explain the time in the middle of the day to write an essay with time to spell check?? ..and your constant participation in the boards... arent u too busy working? "

I'm not working a full-time union job anymore. I'm now doing freelancing and consulting.

And by the way, because I'm a writer by vocation, I don't need spell check. I write flawlessly (for the most part) the first time, and often have to override and correct the computer.

***
"So nycmatt, basically on 9-11, when thousands were killed, when police and fire were working overtime to save the city, when all of NYC was at our lowpoint ... And at the start of the Iraq War, when our troops were in danger ... Your union was collecting triple time and a half in addition to other penalties and other wages, as a punishment because you all had your body clocks disrupted and personal lives impacted?"

Yes. I, along with the police and firefighters, was getting paid overtime. Deal with it.

***

"You're a union member? I thought you do voice-over work."

A) Yes, I've done (and still do) voiceover work.
B) Most of the lucrative voiceover work in this city is union (AFTRA).

***
"Most people who work from home and especially writers, need a break at times during the day to refresh. streeteasy is the pause that refreshes and then we go back to working again."

Thank you, Truth. Very well-put.

Creative types like myself need to take frequent "micro-breaks" to pause, refresh, and "reset", particularly when we're writing. You often have to leave it and come back to it to see it in a new light before you can improve upon it, whether it's a piece of writing, a painting, a sculpture, music, or even a piece of choreography.

Matt: You're in the white-collar voice-over union.
So there are no extra shifts/overtime involved.

Do you have anything that is running currently on T.V./radio?
If so, can you tell me what it is?
That way, next time I hear it I'll say "Hey, that's NYCMatt!"

"So there are no extra shifts/overtime involved."

Truth, on the contrary. There is PLENTY of OT involved if you are either staff or working on a long-term project that stretches over the course of days, weeks, or months.

let's get back to the subject. a crane operator working 13 hr days 7 days a week. i don't want to live in one of those buildings if they actually worked 1/2 that time, especially during winter time with only 8 hrs of daylight.

Matt, don't just say what it is ... post links to your exact roles and credits, then a few hours later accuse a few people of revealing your real name (even if it's just your first name). Have a hissy fit, threaten lawsuits that will necessarily involve the nice hosting company that runs the discussion board, take a powder and then come back a bit later, only to once again deteriorate into total raving madness. It's the dead hippie way.

repeat ad nauseum

Instead of blaming a crane operator that actually does some work , maybe it would be better to consider failed government policies. It's government that creates these economic distortions.

Thanks, Matt, for the excellent explanation.

Thanks for the great post, Matt.

Yes, thanks for the exposé Matt

NYCMatt: That's a lot of voice-over with o.t.

At least you're not trolling people on se.
Like alanhart, who knows he's in trouble and has adjusted his comments.

He starts with people on se, trolling them, then tries in the most pathetic way to turn it around.
That won't hold up in court.

I will take you down to Chinatown, alanhart.
streeteasy will be happy to be rid of you and the other gang member trolls and will gladly give up the discovery.
You won't have the money to pay your legal bills. Never mind your other bills and mortgage.

Free egg rolls!?

hb! what a crazy coincidence!

oh hey lucille, I was worried that first I switched to my Truth name by accident instead of my lucilleissorry name.

lucilleissorry commited suicide after she realized that noone else is nice and life is not worth living. how was your day?

Suicide isn't that funny.

But on other topics, the day was fine.

lucille: See how alanhart is like a child. He just can't give it up.
But I have the law on my side. And the money to pay for it.

Cyber-stalking is a crime and there are lawyers and private investigators who specialize in that
particular crime.

Defamation is a crime and alanhart will be living in a cardboard box, under a highway/bridge somewhere when he's broke.

no it's not funny, but it's rarely a true shock. anywhooo, fun plans for the weekend?

Truth, forgive me, but I think you should consult counsel about those topics before pressing on.

Actually, defamation is a civil cause of action.
I'll take alanhart to civil court and to criminal court.

He will be both broke and serving jail-time.
Or he may just get house arrest.

That won't make his coop board happy and they can evict him.
He won't have the money to pay his bills, so they will evict him for non-payment anyway.

truth just ignore

Where is justice and the American way?

Truuuuuth, come on now.

Hey Truth, did you hear about the latest news in columbiacounty, missouri? Another cow was tipped over and fell on an old man who kept screaming about the window in his shower and Greece.

Truth

What are your damages?

Yes, I'm basically ignoring alanhart. Except when he posts his trolling comments against me.

Chinatown, alanhart.

It will be my pleasure.

huntersburg: consultations have taken place. No problem for me.
Big problems for alanhart.

Consultations?

Columbiacounty?

huntersburg: another cow down, in c. county.

That's it.

I'm suing you for defamation!

Consultations have taken place.

why is everyone suing eachother?

No problem for me.

because you're a lawyer?

lucille: Who is suing each other?

I've consulted and retained an attorney and a private investigator.
They pulled-up and printed-out the abusive trolls' comments.

They don't have the money or cause to sue me.

And no free egg rolls.

lucille: Who is a lawyer? c.c.?

Even better for me.

i think so

lucille:
Whether or not, he's got nothing to lose in a civil action. He just needs money to defend himself.
And he will have to commute down to Manhattan for depos and court because I can file against him here.

The same for criminal court.
Whatever he still has will be gone.

He and alanhart will be living under a bridge in columbia county.

lucille: Very quiet here now. Trolls are nervous.

Really?

I just got off the phone with my attorney.

Consultations have indeed taken place ... just not the kind that are implied.

It's so pleasant on this board right now, without Unstable Mabel yammering on and on.

alanfart,

Get a life!

>columbiacounty
about 8 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse I just got off the phone with my attorney.

What did he say about possible Bail?

And, naturally, this all has essentially nothing to do with th high cost of manhattan real estate, manhattan real estate is expensive because there is strong demand and artificially low supply that serves the interests of property owners, and hurts renters and prospective buyers. The ridiculous zoning and "landmark" rules mean that nearly every building put up in the city is far, far too short compared to the demand for housing. I put landmark in quotation marks because it is completely insane that nearly 20% of the entire building stock of the borough of Manhattan is subject to landmark protection. There are legitimately valuable historical landmarks that should be protected (I don't want anyone knocking down the Woolworth Building or the Brooklyn Bridge) but, really does the entire length of architecturally mediocre West End Avenue really qualify as a historic landmark?

Let me put it to you this way. It costs around $400 a square foot to build a highrise up to forty stories tall. In Manhattan those same units will sell for 1,200 to, well, I guess the sky is th limit per square foot. I am sure you could squeeze some savings in construction costs by breaking unions, but it's hardly going to make a difference given the completely warped supply of apartments.

If you want to understand why so many people live in suburban McMansions when they mostly prefer to live in high rises, and high rises are far better for society by pretty much any metric, read Ed Glaeser's book "The Triumph Of The City."

Blame rent controls, which create a tiered market. Other than that the price is the price which seems to be doing a fairly good job of matching people seeking to rent with the property owners. Phase out rent controls and market rents will come down. Never understood why rich lawyers or doctors or Bianca Jagger many with weekend homes should get this benefit.

"other than that the price is the price.". What in the wold does that mean?

So happyrenter, your solution is to make Manhattan even more dense?

Why not rely on the NY metro area's excellent transportation system and recognize that people can live in the outer boros, Long Island, NJ, Westchester, etc.?

Yes, I do think manhattan can support significantly more density. I also think the outer boroughs can support significantly more density but there, too, zoning restrictions prevent taller buildings. As for the suburbs, sure, people can live there and commute. But it's so much betternfor families, for the environment, for the social fabric, for people to not have to.

Riversider, are (nonexistent) rent controls responsible for high housing costs in London? Moscow? Et cetera? Your final sentence says it all ... little green monster.

The troll is essentially right, except that our mass transit system is wildly inadequate. New rapid transit that zooms out to, then fans out in, southeastern Queens, for example, would take a lot of the pressure off of most of the overpriced areas, while preserving the midrise (by NY standards) character of most of Manhattan and parts of Brooklyn.

RE is soooo expensive because everyone wants to live here. If you want inexpensive RE go live in a less expensive area, like Nebraska, North Dakota, Mississippi, Alabama, South Dakota, Montana, etc., etc. have I listed enough. It's a big country, I find it funny that people want to live in the most expensive couple of miles in the country and than complain about the price of everything. Helloooooooooooo!

Realestateny: you have answered the demand side question, but price is determined by supply and demand, everyone wants to drink soda but it still only costs a buck. isn't it also the case that highly restricted supply, for both geographic and legal reasons, has an impact on price?

happyrenter, don't you think alan makes a great point about transportation though? I'd even extend that to infrastructure in general. I'm of the (completely unscientific) opinion that "significantly more" density would be the proverbial straw on the camel's back in many neighborhoods unless we spend significantly more on transportation and the like.

I find the justification for more people in Manhattan to be rather nutty.

And speaking of nutty, I decided to randomly google the posting names of some of the people here. Alanhart was the oddest, some really off the wall statements from that guy, not to mention not a very handsome photo. Anyway, sorry, got distracted from piling ever more people into Manhattan to fulfill some ridiculous "green" notion of how Al Gore wants us to live in a lockbox while he pulls down serious dough with his books, movies, tv station, board memberships and early investment opportunities in Google, etc. To diversify the family fortune away from the tobacco money.

Bjw,

It's an argument that a lot of people make against density, but the evidence simply doesn't support it. It isn't high density neighborhoods that stress transportation system but rather low and medium density sprawl. Dense neighborhoods attract businesses, which provide places for people to work and shop, which reduce the need to commute, in an ongoing virtuous cycle. If more folks lived in Manhattan, it would reduce the stress on commuter rail and highways. Moreover, lack of reasonable transport is itself a brake on density--that is, a neighborhood will not become dense without access to reasonable transport. Density will also provide the increased tax revenue and political pressure to improve transportation.

happy, those are good points. It makes sense, but I remain a bit skeptical. The majority of white-collar jobs are in Midtown and the Financial District. I don't see that changing anytime soon, though I agree it would be a good thing. That alone will continue to make commuting a challenge. The real problem, as you alluded to, is that you've got a chicken-and-egg problem when it comes to improved transportation. You need density and tax $ to fund improvements, and you need improvements to attract more people. Also, that political pressure and tax money can take YEARS to generate results. Look at the 2nd Ave subway. Williamsburg is going to need increased attention with all the rapidly-added density. The new East River Ferry (which alan, interestingly enough, consistently ridicules) is clearly a response to that, and has been quite successful so far. But we'll need more improvements, and sooner than many people might think.

Hong Kong reminds me every time how much we underutilize our waterways.
Weather is a factor though and might be a bit tougher in the winter.
China's east coast is very similar to ours for weather.
So while NY's weather is like Beijing, Hong Kong is like Miami or probably more Key West.

"the price is the price which seems to be doing a fairly good job of matching people seeking to rent with the property owners."

No it's not, unless you consider people over-extending themselves and paying nearly (or more than) 50% of their take-home pay for housing, leaving nothing for any kind of substantial savings to be a "good job" of matching renters with apartments. And then when they complain about rents being too high, we look down our noses and say it's the "price" of living in city, take it or leave it.

*****

"RE is soooo expensive because everyone wants to live here."

Not necessarily. It's not that "everyone wants" to live here. Many people, believe it not, would gladly trade this living-in-the-sky-fabulous lifestyle with one in Nebraska that brings them closer to nature for a fraction of the cost, if it weren't for the fact that their specialized skill sets are marketable only in NYC.

>Many people, believe it not, would gladly trade this living-in-the-sky-fabulous lifestyle with one in Nebraska that brings them closer to nature for a fraction of the cost, if it weren't for the fact that their specialized skill sets are marketable only in NYC.

LOL!

Hey don't you mean if it weren't for the fact that unions in Nebraska can't be forced to pay crane operators $500K in salary, overtime and benfits.
Sorry I must qualify that. Around 150K is seperately overtime and benefits like health insurance.

The idiot who stood on top of a light pole in Times Square, how does all the mayhem caused to thousands fit into the equation calling for more density. Mayhem magnifies with density, and any NYer knows that. Any real NYer.

huntersburg: Good stuff today.
You actually made my private investigator LOL!

Hello!

"mayhem magnifies with density"

Huh? That's just a lie.

Really, you've never seen a fire truck or ambulance get through traffic?

As for Al Gore or piling people into manhattan, where are you coming up with that? Trust me, I do not want to force more people to live here. I want to get government out of the business of preventing people from living here by making it impossible to build the tall buildings that the market obviously demands.

No, you want government to get involved at the expense of current NYers for your own selfish ideals.

NYCMatt "The jobs are focused and intense and demand 100% uninterrupted attention."

did you even read the article?

"The Real Estate Board there are currently 14 unproductive workers at the World Trade Center earning $400,000 or more in regular pay and overtime."

"unproductive workers" = "intense uninterrupted attention"??

"The group says that some of the workers pulling down the biggest salaries at the World Trade Center aren't even operating equipment. It says about 50 workers are in unnecessary positions, such as relief crane operators, mandated by the union contract."

"unnecessary positions" = "intense uninterrupted attention"??

let's put the union vibrator back in the rabbit cage..

i understand you work from home, so you like breaks in between your work, but c'mon SE > sex?

Oh ho: No time for sex-breaks.
We need to focus our attention on the work. No time to get hung up rolling in the hay.

A bathroon break, cup of tea break, or a little streeteasy.
Then:
Hi-ho
hi-ho
it's off to work we go...

Hello!

no sex breaky timey? c'mon.. closeted outta town summer interns + my Grindr app = always room for lunch time groups.

what's the real reason.. fat wife?

probs an app for that too.. fap fap fap
work done.. play timey hi-hooo

The Real Estate Board, the Building Contractors Association, etc., negotiated the crane operators' work rules with the their union. Given how few crane operators there are, the employers must've figured keeping them the kings of the site was worth the concessions affecting the bulk of the workers.

Unless a crane operator gets lucky, he's going to be working only part of the year, isn't pulling down anything like average Wall St pay, so no need to envy him and get all het up about his compensation.