renovation costs

i forgot to add, i'd need some sort of countertop addition in the kitchen. whether that's wood, metal, or granite, not sure. ideally something that will fit with the idea of a prewar apartment (ie not detract value) but also something in keeping with a high end kitchen that works for someone who cooks a lot, as i do.

and sorry, one more thing. i was hoping that budgeting $140,000, all in, including the requisite cost overruns, would not be out of line. is that reasonable?

Rh53w,

It is almost impossible to give you a budget on this. I have completed many hi end projects where the designers have used Ikea. I have not heard one bad thing about them. We have done many kitchens with about 80% ikea and the other 20% custom cabinets to match. It really works well

If you can arrange a site visit I would be happy to meet you and let you know what you can expect and what it will cost.

My website www.primerenovationsnyc.com

You can reach me at 646-436-3942 or email me at primerenovations@mac.com

>>(more rooms = more value, or so it seems)<<

This is not true. If you are re-separating the rooms simply for value purposes, think again. Most buyers don't care whether walls have come down (doing so can actually make a space feel bigger and more open--ie: more desirable). That said, if you prefer the rooms to be separated because of your own needs/aesthetics--go for it.

I'm planning a renovation on my new place (approx 2500 s/f) . I have talked to a few architects and one contractor/designer as well as a friend that is her own GC. In general it seems like $300 s/f can get you a real high end renovation and if you want to be in the $100 s/f range you need to be the GC and get the subs yourself.

I have redone serveral bathrooms and a full kitchen gut and here's what I find can really add cost to a project fast . Kitchen Cabinets, Granite Counter Tops, Appliances , Bathroom tiling and Bathroom fixtures all can blow out a budget. In addition installing Central Air and new windows can be big line items. New Windows can require a sidewalk bridge which can add 10K to the cost of the project. If your building is Landmarked , you have to go through NYC Landmarks for approval since new windows affect the external facade.

The architectural firms I have spoken on average seem to bill at about 15% of the project cost, which if you decide to use them can be your biggest expense. You can get some amazing results with the right architectural firm but they are not cheap.

I have one estimate so far which came in at $300 s/f in spite of my request to be at $200 s/f so obviously I have more looking to do myself.

JrrTax

Was it $300 all in including your appliances, tiles,etc

Most of the projects I do come in anywhere from $200-300 for a complete gut but there are always ways to get the price done

If you're looking to spend $140k, all-in, I would recommend keeping the initial construction costs to $90k or $100k max. That will allow you enough for the various fees you'll need to pay to the city, the building, and the architects, plus give you some room for cost overruns.

Architects do tend to charge around 12-15% of the project cost, but can really add value through their network of contractors and their ability to find the "fat" in itemized budgets. Our architect charges 13%, but I guarantee we've saved at least 10% over what we could have negotiated / done ourselves, plus he is managing the contractors and brought many great design ideas to the table. Yes, it will be the biggest expense on paper, but look at it in terms of value for the money.

Other advice:
(1) If anything you are doing requires an engineer..... open your wallet wide!
(2) Find out early if the electrical work you are doing will necessitate replacement of your panel, if it happens to be old. We not only had to replace, but also had to relocate our electrical panel. Cha-ching!

Good luck!

Lad,

If your project was only 100,000 and then it cost you an extra 40k for the architect and city fees I think something went very wrong

I don't know what you paid for a new panel and to move it but that really does not cost all that much maybe $2,500.00-$3,000.00

Primer, I'd figure $15k for an architect, a couple thousand in various fees (depending on the building), and then about 20% cost overruns.

Our project involves major structural changes.... one engineer led to another and then another, with the end result being a couple of steel beams, a crane, and various other tricky maneuverings that cost a small fortune. We only wish we were 20% over our initial budget. Fortunately, we knew all but about $4k of this before we officially broke ground, so we went in having decided that the project was still worthwhile.

The electrical box was not that expensive to move, but renovation is full of $1,000 surprises here and there that neither contractors nor architects ever seem to fully account for. They add up. IMO, it's best to figure you'll be over budget and set your initial max as whatever it is really is minus 20-25%.

Our architect, who is terrific, is charging us a (very reasonable) flat fee for our reno. We are not doing a full gut, though--bathrooms are staying intact and kitchen is being expanded but not entirely gutted. I expect when we're done the architect's fee will represent around 8% of the project cost, provided the cost doesn't creep upwards, of course... Either way, it is a fixed and very affordable number.

Lad,

Yours seems to be an exception, in all my years we never needed an engineer no less a crane. The major change orders come from mthe client that wants extra work done. I would say to expect 5% in extra expense for the unknown , nothing more then that

Lad is adding square footage.

In this case, we are adding square footage. But I've been through multiple renovations now (only this one in Manhattan, though) and 20% over budget always seems to be about where I end up.

Once demolition starts, I almost always find things that absolutely need to be replaced and/or are more economical to replace while everything is open.

For me, renovation is a lot less stressful when I build in a 20% buffer. This one, though, has been plenty stressful even with the 50% buffer I built in for all of the structural stuff.

My estimate at $300 sq ft included everything , appliances , cabinets , central air new windows. As I said I'm going to shop around more because the property value does not justify $300 a sqft. I have to figure out what to chop out to get it closer to 200 sqft.

Would you like me to take a look at it? I have done many hi-end apartments for under $300.00 sq. ft.

I know the contractor we used worked within our friend's budget...and highly doubt her budget was $300 psf! She did a gut renovation of a pre-war. Beautiful work-she was very happy with the end result. I have referred the contractor on this site before. His email is www.philipshomeimprovement@gmail.com.
good luck

I think anything over $100 per square feet for renovation is crazy! To build the apartment from scratch shouldn't cost as much. There is a tendency with contractors/architects to inflate the costs for profit reasons. I have heard of contractors doing fantastic jobs at $70 per square feet in pre-wars.
What nobody is discussing here is the bribes that go out around to various individuals called "palm grease", which goes to any building employee that has interaction with the general contractor while the work is going on will receive "incentive" to keep things running smoothly. These costs vary considerably, from a small tip of say $20 at the beginning of a job to something more substantial. Once in awhile, an unsavory building worker will pressure contractors for money on a regular basis to keep the job moving.

Switel,

Huh? We have a tendency to inflate the cost for profit reasons? What should we do, charge you the same thing it costs us? Doesn't every company in the world work like that? Does it cost apple $2,500.00 for the 27" iMac? or do they mark it up so they can support their families? Please share with us the licensed contractors who can do a prewar apartment for $70.00 sq. ft because if they are good I will be a very very rich man. If a client decides they want to purchase custom kitchen cabinets and built-ins along with using very nice fixtures the cost of Plumbing,tiles, millwork, etc can cost more then $70.00 sq ft.

Are you talking about gut renovations? Obviously if you are just renovating a bathroom it will not cost you $70.00 sq ft but if one wanted to it could be done

As far as the building people putting pressure on us? It hasn't happened to me. Will I tip the super for helping us oout of course but that doesn't make the project more expensive.

Primer05,

Can you explain the high-tech investments and R&D work that goes into gutting a bathroom? No disrespect to your profession, but aren't you aiming a little too high when you compare renovation work to high-tech electronic manufacturing?

Can you detail the cost for gut renovating a 5x7 bathroom? And why some contractors quote $30K per bath? Do people in pre-war Harlem pay the same? Or is this some upper-east/upper-west white-people pricing?

Just for reference $30k buys you a very decent brand new SUV.

Switel,

Wow, did you miss the point. I am talking profits, I don't care if we are talking about widgets or any other profession in the world. We all work to make profits. How do you think this works? I bid on a project, usually against other contractors. I consider what costs I have and then I mark it up so I can make money. That is my profit. Some projects make more then others but I am a little surprised you brought up race. What exactly is your point in that?

I actually thought a very decent SUV is more then 40k but I guess everyone has their own opinion. Why do you think a car has more value then a bathroom? The car depreciates in value the minute you start driving it while a renovated bathroom would increase the value of your home, no?

A bathroom in the city can easily run $30,000. Half of which goes for the tub, shower body , vanity, tiles, medicine cabinet, light fixture, shower doors, sink and faucet. That could cost 15k easy. Can you do it for cheaper? Of course. You can buy subway tiles, American standard shower body, shower curtain, etc

Labor: a good licensed plumber charges about 5,000.00 for a bathroom. I like to use a good plumber because the alternative is not very good.

That's 20,000.00

The $10,000.00 left is for me and that covers demo, rubbish removal, supplying and installing durorock and greenboard, grout, and all the labor that goes with that. There is also my supervision and overhead like insurance and little things like parking, gets to be expensive in the city. So if everything goes perfectly I could make $5,000.00. If you have been involved with any renovations you would now that usually does not happen

How much do you think a bathroom should cost?

I think the numbers you are quoting are crazy. These prices are obviously for those people who don't care about their money. There is a stark difference between profit and abnormal profit. I don't mind a contractor profiting from a project so long as it's a fair profit for the amount of work and risk he or she are undertaking. My problem is the beefing up of the prices of services that should be a whole lot cheaper than what they are.
The whole point is that people who buy apartments in Manhattan for a million dollars are lead to believe that a bathroom renovation costs $30k.
Even if you go to Home Depot, the sales rep will gladly tell you that the mid-range materials for a bath will cost around $5k and the installation fees for an apartment in Queens is $5k, but if the apartment is in Manhattan, the costs soar to $17k-$22k for installation fees!!!
This proves the point that the renovation costs have nothing to do with the actual cost of the renovation, it has to do with the location of the apartment and the clients wallet.
Recently a lot of contractors are starting to dramatically lower the prices of the renovation quotes due to the economic situation. I hear $15k is the new $30k.

Switel,

There are a couple of factors that go into pricing a job

1. It is more costly to work in Manhattan, hours that we are allowed to work, building rules for example, we usually have to bring all the plumbing back to the risers. that's where the $5,000.00 plumbing fee comes from
2. Fixtures: if you go to home depot you can do a bathroom cheaper as they have less expensive items then a higher end store. When I first started in this business I installed the tile for the Hemsley Hotel. To save money the bought marble tile from Home Depot, the tile was so soft that when you cut it the tile would crumble.
3. What are the walls made out of? if it's plaster it is a harder project then if it were sheetrock
4. For a shower we use a lead pan, cheaper contractors will use a vinyl pan
5. Some contractors like myself install the tile in such a way that we don't have cut tiles at the ceiling or floor, been if we have to drop the ceiling a 1/4". Not all people do that
6. You can always find cheaper contractors but that does not mean you will end up with the quality that you want. I can't tell you how many times I have to redo some other contractors work

This person who says materials for a bathroom are 5,000.00 for mid range is wrong. You might be able to go low range for that.

Again, you can do a bathroom for less money but it will not be as nice. It's like buying Mercedes compared to a Kia. You can buy a cheap car or expensive car it depends on your taste.

Primer, Switel might not be your target customer.
Switel, Primer might not be your preferred type of contractor.

Ok, there we go ... separate ways. Why are you two trying to convince each other?

switel, can your recommend a contractor that will do a job at a fair price?