cash back at closing to the buyer?

i think the rebate is a great idea. I used Keith Burkhardt when I bought this past Spring (1m+ place in Chelsea), and couldn't have been happier. I've met countless brokers in NYC, and I agree they do add some value (most, no value) - but why not use Keith who adds amazing value and rebates a large portion of the commission back to you.

It's hard to justify $30k commission for a broker when the entire deal is said and done in 2 months (in my case) ...I realize some deals can be more involved, etc but put the $30k into perspective ...Also, agree that if the buyer is a total idiot and can't research market value, or negotiate effectively, perhaps a full-service broker could be useful. But, to be honest, most professionals in NYC can probably pull it off.

Brokerage is a market, just like anything else - if there's a similar, but cheaper alternative, the market will eventually push towards that alternative.

Also, agree that if the buyer is a total idiot and can't research market value, or negotiate effectively, perhaps a full-service broker could be useful. But, to be honest, most professionals in NYC can probably pull it off.

This assumes that most brokers arent total idiots incapable of usefull assistance--then there's that their agenda is completely conflicted with their client, whether the broker has a double-digit IQ or not

I think we are on the same page on a rebate in general I just happen to think that 30k really 15k after the split if your at a traditional brokerage is justified for a competent agent. By competent I mean someone that is taking on no more than 4 listings or clients at once and yes most deals take longer especially buyer clients (some over a year). I also agree that most professionals could pull it off however most professionals especially in your price range are busy collecting the big bucks from their chosen profession. In my opinion it comes down to the fact that a professional agent/broker will save you time and money with your best interest as a priority. As a matter of fact if a deal is done quickly they are even more deserving of a high commission. For people that think breaking in to real estate and earning high commissions are a field day I urge them to try it. Many professionals earn major dollars in this city and believe me no matter what they are doing they work for it. A LOT comes before getting a commission check even one you fall into.

Justin Christopher
http://theartinrealestate.wordpress.com/

Justin, people like Keith are trying a different business model. First, you give 25-50% to your brokerage house; let's call it 33%. Keith does not, nor does his business have much overhead. At the end of the day, you keep 66% and he keeps 40%. So he grosses 60% of what you do per transaction.

On the other side of the equation is how much time you spend. I would guess that Keith's clients take less of his time (they prefer to be more self-driven in their search), they are more likely to transact if when they engage Keith, and Keith spends much less time wooing new clients. Should I ever decide to buy, I'm very likely to use Keith although I just know him through SE. On a per-hour basis, he will net several hundred dollars per hour even after rebating 2/3rd of his half of the fee. That's pretty nice pay.

Your view of the brokerage industry is one where the labor is extremely inefficient. Somewhere, I estimated that the typical broker at a big firm does $4M in transactions per year. That's 4 apartments. Quite frankly, from the view of labor efficiency, that's piss-poor. As an industry assuming a 40-hour work week, you are spending an average of 500 hours to broker the buy-side of each apt transaction in Manhattan.

No offense, but that system is nothing to be proud of. Here are some people trying to improve the efficiency of the system structurally by increasing client throughput, but you're sticking to a "500 hours to broker a buy-side deal is great" viewpoint. To me, it's a sign of incompetence if all you have to show for your professional accomplishments at the end of the year is the buy-side brokering of 4 apartments. I want the guy who's been more productive with his time.

You misunderstood almost entirely my point. First off most brokers that only work buyers or at least that is there major client base are not that great (not this Keith fellows model). If I was selling your property and three others believe me you would not want me running around with 10 buyers as well.

I should have been more clear in that 4 listings at a time I meant exclusives. I was also not talking about Keith's model of just basically doing the transaction for a buyer that wants to use their time on the leg work and fills out financials and the rest when they are supposed to. I was specifically speaking to buyers that are first time, nervous, need hand holding or just plain busy doing other things they find more important and need a brokers service. The fact is that major hours on a deal are not a matter of inefficiency or incompetence on the brokers part (at least a good one) they are mostly used up between the buyer themselves for a slew of reasons and the board/ board packages in the case of a co-op, which is all fine that's what I am here to do. Time spent focused solely on best serving my clients interest is something to be extremely proud of in this industry.

In your description of Keith's model I think it is a good idea, he is most likely busy with that, it's all a matter of what the broker wants to do with there career I guess. If he is busy (I hope so) I would not hire him to sell a place though nor to negotiate although you said you would be doing the majority of heavy lifting. In fact if a savvy buyer was proactive in their search and completed all the paperwork on time with no issues and basically wanted me to finalize the deal I'll tell you what I'll give them 80% back.

Wow I missed this thread. I don't represent sellers, I focus on buyers. What I offer buyers is a comprehensive analysis of the property they wish to purchase and an experienced opinion (20 years NYC broker) that seeks to balance their emotional as well as financial components. I also never ask a client what they want to pay for a home, I first give them my opinion of it's value and express it as a range with notes explaining my price points. Then we discuss. If I think a deal stinks, I will vehemently argue against a purchase. If we decide to bid, we work together to formulate a bidding strategy and help them stick with it. My services also include full support in assembling the board package.

What I don't do is search the database's for listings, my clients are capable of doing that themselves. I don't show up for every open house appointment, but I do have a very capable assistant that is available for showings when needed. My real work starts when a client says, "I may want to bid on this".

My typical client is what I call a "real estate quant", they can be young first time buyers or established clients purchasing their third+ home. They enjoy doing much of the legwork but would like some support and advice along the way. They get this along with a portion of the buy-side commission rebated to them.

It works because we utilize today's current technology, no big office, all documents in the cloud and a wise use of my time. My agents keep 90-95% of what they earn. I'll just say it works and all involved are quite happy. It may not be for everyone, there are other firms that can accommodate nicely, options in a free market are good and necessary.

Keith Burkhardt
The Burkhardt Group
http://ubivoletaudentunicornium.blogspot.com/ (you can see what I am up to here)

Ahh, Very cool. I totally see that service working well and think it's justified. I like how you describe when your work begins and the level of support a client can expect. That being said if it's the full support from start to finish with all hands on deck due to a buyers lack of knowledge or time I believe a commission is more than earned 30k in 2 months or not.

I happened to notice when I first came on here people taking pot shots at brokers and contractors rates. When people do that I always wonder what they do for a living and if they think their salary is justified or that they deserve a raise. Of course incompetence is in every industry however if your working with a professional or small business owner that delivers I'm of the opinion they deserve their fee. I think anyone that disagrees with the philosophy of paying for skill either has no real concept of what goes into getting to that big pay day in that field or is a nickel and dimer themselves.

http://theartinrealestate.wordpress.com/

>Of course incompetence is in every industry however if your working with a professional or small business owner that delivers I'm of the opinion they deserve their fee. I think anyone that disagrees with the philosophy of paying for skill either has no real concept of what goes into getting to that big pay day in that field or is a nickel and dimer themselves.

What exactly are you claiming is your skill? Clearly not punctuation, grammar or logic. So what is it?

Keith was our broker for our recent loft purchase. What differentiates him from others besides a huge rebate is his honesty and belief in giving his clients right advice rather than just trying to close the deal.

justin21, are you a broker?

I am and an ethical one at that. Unfortunately brokers just looking to close a deal give us a bad name. I would like to think there is more professionalism in our industry than we get credit for. I was just given misinformation on Keith's system, however I would like to point out that in Keith's own words and what everyone seems to keep missing, the amount of time spent with the client is also what differentiates him hence a huge rebate. I think it's a great system and would even suggest using it if you can do the heavy lifting.

The "heavy lifting" IMHO is the the property analysis and assistance with bidding and board package (when applicable).

Anyone can set up an alert with corresponding information including search criteria. That said I understand there are buyers out there that don't want to lift a finger and need a broker to search for listings, understand the various neighborhoods etc...Ironically though, even the so called "full service" brokers are sending clients to open houses on Sunday and asking them to "sign them in". 90% of my work is done on line/phone and you are correct, I do spend quite a bit of time on my computer. FYI: I have been working since 6:30am today, pretty much non-stop I have 5 current contracts/board packages in the works and 10 active buyers. We all work hard in this city, my clients especially hard!

As a new agent at Bond I am sure you are giving 50% to the house, for that you get an impressive array of support, nice office etc...Your clients certainly appreciate the structural security a large firm affords them and I am sure the agents feel the same way. What I do is certainly not for everyone. But I do my own taxes and manage my own financial portfolio, like many of the clients that seek out my services. In these endeavors I am not alone, I have the support of turbo-tax and other online based support. I subscribe to highly rated financial newsletters and use ETF's and dollar cost averaging to efficiently manage my money, I would not have it any other way. I could not have done this 20 years ago when Merrill would charge me $300 dollars to trade 50 shares of stock (:

I am the "firm" so even with the rebates, more effective use of my time and increased transactions, well you do the math.

I love real estate and the majority of the brokers I deal with are interesting, intelligent professionals and a pleasure to work with. I am a little guppy in a big sea, just trying to offer people an alternative way to do business. In the end it is good for everyone, because when a property sells, everyone wins; when everyone is happy with the results; even better!

Thanks 300 for all the kind words, you are a prince among men, even when I erred on the rebate invoice (in your favor!!) you were kind enough to immediately point this out.

Keith Burkhardt
The Burkhardt Group

I wish you all the best Justin!

justin21, surprised that you call yourself ethical but did not idetify yourself as a broker in your original post.

Keith, have you met with any resistance from brokers at "full" service firms?

I'd like to add my voice to those who highly recommend Keith. I've described in another thread just how much we enjoyed working with him and found his business model beneficial. As first time buyers, we found the process much less nauseating because of Keith's expertise and flexibility. We would work with Keith again in a heartbeat. And no, I'm not a broker (or Keith's mother).

>justin21, surprised that you call yourself ethical but did not idetify yourself as a broker in your original post.

Additionally, he didn't explicitly tell everyone he was an idiot, but it was pretty evident.

I wonder who would call them selves unethical?.. hmmm ... hmmm

brooks, what is your profession?

Thanks Tungsten and rlmnyc (looking forward to reno report).

I have a great relationship with the listings brokers I work with, they want to sell their listings;simple as that.

Keith Burkhardt
The Burkhardt Group

Howdy Streeters! I am also an exclusive buyer's broker, that gives rebates after closing.
I offer full service and as I only represent the buyer there is no conflict of interest. In case anyone is worried about board package submission, the listing brokerage company will also do a final review before I deliver the board package.
Unless it is to be an all cash deal, a buyer needs to have their financing in order and ideally be pre-approved.
If a buyer wants me to give them a rebate, they also need to check that financing allows it (it usually does) They will also need to get prior written approval from their lender before accepting the rebate. (Which has to be recorded on hud1)
Because buying real estate here has many unique factors, I always recommend that a buyer decide on a real estate attorney experienced in the buying and selling of Manhattan residential Real Estate.

(As to Sonnynyc's question: Even though I am a "full service" firm, I have met some resistance as a buyer's broker as the concept of buyer agency in NY coops and condos is fairly new, especially since the agency disclosure has only been required for about a year)