Central Harlem vs Park Slope/Prospect Park/Other

I think it's absurd to be comparing the "nice" areas of Brooklyn to the crappiest of areas of Manhattan.

Crappy of NYC = Best of BK. Believe that.

Matt, who lives in Washington Heights, always amuses on this topic.

But anyway, here is the "major crime" crime stats per 1,000 people for Harlem, Park Slope, and Prospect Park from teh FBI stats

CH - Precinct 28 (MS park to 5th, 110th to 125th - 19.9 per 1,000
CH - Precinct 32 (same-ish from 12th to the East River) - 15.5
EH - Precinct 23 (East of 5th, 96th to 116th) - 12.0
EH - Precinct 25 (East of 5th, 116th to the East River) - 19.0
BK - Precinct 77 - Prospect Heights - 14.2
BK - Precinct 78 - Park Slope - 13.8
BK - Precinct 84 - Brooklyn Heights - 20.5

For fun - #6, Greenwich Village - 24.6
#8 - Murry Hill/Gramercy - 22.8
#1 - Tribecca, BPC, and Fidi - 21.7

(see http://www.dnainfo.com/crime-safety-report)

As you can see, Tribecca and Brooklyn Heights are "worse" by this measure. But all of the above are safer than just about any area of any large city elsewhere in the USA.

it is only in the poorer neighborhoods (where less-well-educated and illegal immigrants tend to live) that NYPD have success pressuring victims to underreport violent, serious crimes--this is part of the process where NYPD seeks to game CompuStat--they look busy stoppping/frisking, pot-busting poor minorities, and can show reductions in serious crime at the same time--justifies ridiculous "broken windows" theory

so the poorer the neighborhood, the more underreported violent crime will be

Transportation is all about where you usually need to get to, but both areas have pretty good access to a variety of trains, and both relatively convenient for access to transportation outside the city (LIRR or MetroNorth, as well as LGA/JFK, depending on where you are obviously).

Harlem probably stands to gain the most appreciation given the supposed changes in retail around 125th, being in Manhattan, the improvement of schools (due to continuing gentrification), and Columbia's increased presence.

Hey bottoms, I thought there was no way someone could be considering both Harlem and Park Slope? Weird, huh?

Above crime stats were meant to say 125th, not 12th and above.

"it is only in the poorer neighborhoods (where less-well-educated and illegal immigrants tend to live) that NYPD have success pressuring victims to underreport violent, serious crimes"

How do you explain the significantly higher crime rates in Jamaica, South Brox, Brownsville, Bed-Stuy, etc? EPIC FAIL, loser.

Jason, I'm not talking about major crime stats. I'm talking about appearance, convenience, etc. Brooklyn Heights is arguably one of the most beautiful (and convenient) neighborhoods in the entire city. Comparing it to Harlem is like comparing filet mignon to soy burgers.

"it is only in the poorer neighborhoods (where less-well-educated and illegal immigrants tend to live) that NYPD have success pressuring victims to underreport violent, serious crimes--this is part of the process where NYPD seeks to game CompuStat--they look busy stoppping/frisking, pot-busting poor minorities, and can show reductions in serious crime at the same time--justifies ridiculous "broken windows" theory
so the poorer the neighborhood, the more underreported violent crime will be"

One of the most ill-informed, faulty logic-filled posts I've seen around here. Impressive.

"Jason, I'm not talking about major crime stats. I'm talking about appearance, convenience, etc. Brooklyn Heights is arguably one of the most beautiful (and convenient) neighborhoods in the entire city. Comparing it to Harlem is like comparing filet mignon to soy burgers."

Well, yes, that is true. For once I won't argue with you.

However, I will point out that such things are about 58.7 times shittier in Washington Heights than where I live. Places in Carnegie Hill and Yorkville deliver to my apt, and are also in walking distance. You are in services hell.

My husband and I are considering Prospect Heights/Park Slope and Central Harlem so I understand Pawn_Harvester's point of view. We want a house, the price points are similar and both neighborhoods have drawbacks. I know other couples who are considering those areas as well. It's a weird comparison but the housing market is completely crazy right now and it doesn't seem worthwhile to buy in Manhattan.

"but the housing market is completely crazy right now and it doesn't seem worthwhile to buy in Manhattan."

Particularly in the shitty areas.

Right Matt - like Washington Heights

I do think that the Harlem has more upside potential than Park Slope for sure.

doesnt it all depend on your life style, and ofcourse what you can afford? those areas are just so different. If i needed the N,R trains i would go with the slope, or sunset park. If im going to do harlem, I would go to wash heights, its safer and the food is better. Tribeca and Bk heights have more crime because all the poor people go there to rob the rich. Mainly car break ins, and petty theft robberies. Unlike the "hood" there are no drug dealers standing around on the corner. In tribeca and bk heights, the drug dealers deliver.

I think this is a completely rational discussion, especially if the OP has a family. My husband and I went around and around on this topic. Both BK and Upper Manhattan have their distinct price/QOL advantages. We chose to live on 157th St in Washington/Hamilton Heights but we very seriously considered Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights. We didn't choose because 157th because BH or PS are "lesser" but because living in Manhattan was a better choice for us. Primarily because my husband works, and our eldest goes to school, on the UWS. He can take him there on his way to work which frees me up to care for our other son and child on the way. Brooklyn would have been a challenge. Also, I did my residency in the area so it is familiar to me. That said, I envy my PS friends who have play groups and little cafes set up for kids. It's all a trade off. I seriously do not see how you could go wrong either way.

My advice to the OP would be to decide what are the 5 year must haves and go from there.

Thanks - very helpful. Do you have any thoughts on why there are so few child-friendly spots in upper manhattan? I certainly see lots of families floating around.

upper manhattan is great, though not the current trendy place to go when you need to leave prime manhattan. public school (like most of nyc) are bad, but i think there is a good one in the hudson heights area (181-191ish west of broadway). i live in a condo building with lots of families. most do private/lottery school i believe. train access is great and if you're at all west side-centric...it beats brooklyn IMO. beautiful areas west of broadway all around. many will argue that lower-central harlem is better...although it has a few more amenities I really prefer the vibe of the far west side pretty much all the way up. riverbank park is a gem and it's nice being near the west side hwy for cabs.

Pawn_Harvester - there are child friendly groups--esp. in Morning Side. I think you can Google them. I used to join regularly and will after I have this next baby. Right now I'm simply too huge to lug myself and a 2 yr old. Als, a lot of parents have play dates in the local parks and in their apartments.

Still, I want my cafes like in PS!

"Thanks - very helpful. Do you have any thoughts on why there are so few child-friendly spots in upper manhattan? I certainly see lots of families floating around. "

You mean white and possibly upper-classy-looking Asians. There have always been lots of families with kids up there. But heaven forbid black, Latin, and/or poor kids should mingle with your offspring.

and there goes the thread...
why must these threads devolve into fights? that was a perfectly lovely conversation!

in fairness to OP, there actually aren't a lot of places to take your child or, eve, yourself. We have one restaurants Antika that's lovely and family friendly and great parks. But the area does need a serious injection of restaurants and cute stores. Or cool bars. Anything.

Jason, how did you derive to the conclusion that child-friendly spots = white and possibly upper - classy looking Asians....You must have an inferiority complex.....

Harlem is not for ordinary families to move in. It's for those who have trunks of money, ie. dealers, easy money makers such as rapers, rich officials such as Ass%u3002 Commissioner Wendell Walters, cash business owners, foreign tycoons, etc.

They are rich, and they are not planning to make Harlem their neighborhood, thus they don't care about the slums next door. And the projects/SROs/rent control part of Harlem will stay there forever and even expand. The original residents can produce a lot more offspring too.

jason10006 - I simply made a statement that I see a lot of families floating around and not a lot of child-friendly spots. I'm not sure how you read this as racially charged or implying that there is a shift from black, latin, etc. It seems Harlem needs more stuff for kids and families of all types...

pawnharvester, you are wrong. there are tons of child-friendly spots and playgrounds in harlem. comparing to other boros and neighborhoods, harlem is one of the most over-privileged area in NYC, the governemtn simply wasted too much money here.

and jason is right that harlem is not healthy on ethnicity. it's too concentrated and not diversified enough. kids don't develop well in such an environment. that's why it's not a good idea to grow a family here. and in the next decades, things won't change for sure

I see the parks - many many parks in the area I'm looking. It's one of the great selling points of Harlem.

As for kid-friendly cafe's that eliz is referencing, I have not seen much. Sure, they are open to kids in Red Rooster, Native, Cafe Latte, but they are not designed with kids in mind. That is something that PS and other areas have.

caonima, that's a sweeping statement. i am going to guess you think the WV (heavily white) is a healthy environment. seems you think ethnicity of the african or latino environment is the issue? kind of sad mentality in 2011.

pawn harvester--i am hoping that with the new school opening at the top of the block will generate more "charming" little places to go. we shall see. overall, i don't think you can go wrong. my one slight problem with PS is how far out it is. i grew up there and it feltlike forever to get to manhattan relative to BH.

I don't think anyone is the Grand Wizard of the KKK. However, these comments on how good or not Harlem is for kids are almost NEVER asked about Chelsea, the WV, FiDi, Hells Kitchen, the UES, etc. Only about areas of upper Manhattan. The mind naturally leaps to conclusions when such questions are asked. Ditto when asked "is it good for families?" as though families do not already live there.

There are actually more children and families per capita in upper Manhattan than in most parts below 96th. But these are not the "families" or "kids" people care about. Its the people who can afford to live below 96th, and choose to move above, that people are referring to when discussing "families" or "kids".

We could afford to live downtown. In fact, we did. Just in a much smaller space and our neighbors hated the sound of our kids running and yelling. That constant stress and confinement was, to us, less healthy for our kids. As I said in one of my original posts--people need to know what the must have for their family. if it's space, affordability, staying in Manhattan with great access to the west side, etc WaHi or Hamilton Heights likely fits the bill. Obviously that doesn't make it the only area just a very viable option.

As far as the racial element. I guess everyone has to work through their racial anxieties and biases on their own time and terms. Though, with India, China, Brasil breathing down the neck of the once untouchable USofA, it probably would help kids to get used to interacting with and competing with varying shades of brown. Not so sure the "raise you kids in a WASPy cocoon" is such a no fail plan anymore.

why do you allow your kids to run around and yell? i don't ask this to be snarky but as someone who is older and never allowed our kids to do that.

We moved by the time the eldest was 3 so it was not what you're probably imagining. Running and yelling was an overstatement - and how the neighbor surely perceived it. But, yes, we did allow him to learn to walk ( a clumsy and bumpy process) and we didn't stifle his cries as a newborn. So we did generate some level of noise. The building was poorly built. I could hear the tiny dog above me shuffling around. So, when we had a second boy we decided we would do everyone a favor and rent out the apartment to a nice, single woman who is rarely home.

Just curious, what did your kids do when playing?

they went outside. they jumped and ran inside but no indiscriminate screaming. a lot of discussion always about neighbors. i find it amazing to watch many kids with parents watching go crazy. not sure how accurate i am, but i don't think i was allowed to do this either as a kid.

>not sure how accurate i am, but i don't think i was allowed to do this either as a kid.

times were different in the 20s.

let me know how this all works out for you.

Good for families is not a question of whether families live in the area, but one of amenities for families and kids. So, there may be families living in various areas down town, but TriBeCa is known for being very family friendly. Some parts of Harlem have lots of family stuff (eg, little gym, kid berry, etc.). The lack of cafes for kiddies is also evident.

Anyone know where you can get a decent everything bagel in central Harlem?

I live in Park Slope and have friends in that area of Harlem who like it a lot. I think the biggest difference is that of amenities -- in PS there's easy access to a lot of really good food (both restaurants and groceries/specialty vendors), good dry cleaners, good pet supply stores, some okay clothes shopping, and that sort of thing. In Harlem, my impression is that it's a bit tougher to find that sort of stuff, unless you're a really short walk to more gentrified MS Heights or certain other pockets. I admit that I like my yuppie amenities, and I'm honest with myself about how much I like them. My life's too busy for me to want to have to go out of my way for decent produce. But if you eat at home a lot and don't mind venturing a little farther (or ordering Fresh Direct) for groceries it might be fine -- though if you're considering a house rather than a doorman apartment building it can be difficult to rely on ordering in unless you're home during the day.

Miette is correct.

CC: as a parent, damned if you do, damned if you don't. My kids sometimes scream outside - I promptly haul them home, if possible. If my neighbors could hear (good sound insulation), I'm sure I'd be thoroughly maligned. Now, I have actually been yelled at outside the home, on a public sidewalk for letting my kid scream (we're talking below the age of reason). I'm told to coddle my kid and give in on those days by well-meaning passersby. Or I might be told that I'm too lenient if I'm overheard reasoning with older children instead of giving 'em a good spanking.

There's just no pleasing people who have no idea what the story is. The only way to placate is to move out into the wilderness and have no one within earshot or sight.

"There's just no pleasing people who have no idea what the story is. The only way to placate is to move out into the wilderness and have no one within earshot or sight."

Or just discipline your children.

I'm actually with Matt...if the kids are say over 4.

of course our kids misbehaved. but there were consequences, not just for them but for us in terms of what we felt comfortable doing and not doing.

Tune in for more of "Columbia County on Parenting" tomorrow on Streeteasy.

"Now, I have actually been yelled at outside the home, on a public sidewalk for letting my kid scream (we're talking below the age of reason). "

10023, you are so nice here so you must be even nicer in person. i get shit from strangers all the time when my kids misbehave even slightly. what you do is before they even finish their first thought ask, do you have children? how many? how old are they? did you raise them in the city? were they always on their best behavior? how were they at restaurants? what age were they potty trained? how did you get them to eat their veggies? just start badgering them with questions about their own kids, as soon as they answer one, ask another, and another. after a few like that they'll start backing away from you and turning their head in an attempt to escape. at that point you sincerely thank them for the great advice they gave you and release them to go on their merry self important way. the beauty of that is it's up to you how you want end it. you can let them walk away all uncomfortable and confused, or, my favorite, start walking in their direction with them continuing to pester them for the brilliant insight, you might even want to change it up and discuss your invalid father and his diet/affllictions/medications, while they curse themselves for getting out of bed that morning. if you're really bored and feeling mean, make a few stops to briefly attend to your young (and let parenting authority breathe a sigh of relief thinking they've escaped) and then catch up to them! when you've had your fun and you are sufficiently confident this toolbox will probably never again give unsolicited parenting advice as long as he lives, you stop suddenly, exclaim omg i completely forgot about xyz! i need to run! but it was so wonderful speaking with you, i learned so much, blah blah. if you're still a little miffed about this poor frightened person's tone with you at the start of this exchange, you can say something like, i would love to get together with you for coffee in the park sometime and talk more about kids and families, we have so much in common and i find it so difficult to really connect with other mothers (or whatever that obnoxious creature is), i would really like it if we stayed in touch. then take out your phone, fumble with it but you want to be watching this person's about now, then say omg! it's later than i thought! i REALLY have to go! bye! you're great, hope to run into you again sometime! and walk away knowing that you have just neutralized a neighborhood menace. if that silly jackass yelled at you, they must yell at people all the time and as a result of your actions, your neighborhood, and really the world at large, is a better, safer, more glorious place for stressed out parents.

Hmm, yes. Judge our parenting when the pudding's been baked or the chicken's been cooked. My point is that there are people who will judge you in a negative way (and not just in their heads) no matter what you do. They could be right, I could be wrong - but there's no way of knowing until I'm in my dotage and my kids are some terrifyingly accomplished people with their own happy, healthy families.

Back to Pawn's question.

I've spent some time in both Harlem and Clinton Hill, Fort Greene, PS & Boerum Hill, CG, Bk Hts, CB, and Wburg doing some RE recon. I feel uncomfortable in Harlem, and I feel bad about feeling uncomfortable. But I do, and it's not about statistics or any solid data.

i remember that day. it made me sad :(

disciplining my child publicly often results in screaming/crying (which i then ignore, unless of course we are in a confined space with others). true story - 3 days ago i had my kids in the park, the 3 year old wasn't listening and, well, it ended in tears. But not just hers! Some woman sitting nearby started crying b/c my kid was crying and felt the need to let me know. after i hugged my sobbing child (she did have a fever, after all) the woman told me i was a good mom. wtf? kids scream. most parents do their best (some just suck at it). i do agree that many parents are too soft. my 3 year old picks up bad habits at school and during play dates that i consistently try to correct, even in front of the lenient parents who permit such offenses. everyone has a different style. i'm sure many think i'm too harsh, but i consider it a wise long-term investment.

This is such an interesting discussion. I grew up in PS in the 80s. When I was a child, about 5 blocks of prime PS were "nice" and you would never, ever consider Prospect Park anything but a shithole. There was a slow trickle of "gentrifiers" back then and we wondered what misfortune took them from Manhattan and landed them in our 'hood. The Irish/Italians hated the Blacks and Hispanics and so on. The fun really started at the height of the crack epidemic. Those of you who lived in the city then probably agree that any discussion of "rough" NYC areas is a total joke in comparison. When I graduated from med school in 2000 prime PS was gentrified and people were moving on to PP and Bushwick/Crown Heights. So funny to see the exact same discussions happening about Harlem, Washington Heights.

fort Greene has changed a lot. I seem to recall that it was mostly black in the late 80s. Am I mistaken? Do I have my nabs mixed up?

the reality of OP is if there is anything holding him in Manhattan. if there are children already going in good schools in the borough. if he's planning on having children.

children = Park Slope. good elementary schools and plenty of stuff for kids to do. the kids programs at the Y are amazing. when you get to junior high, you're screwed though.
no children = Western Harlem. more potential for upside and restaurants/bars coming in. for schools to get better, it will take at least 10 yrs (really 20 ). good private schools are $30K per yr.

So there are no children in Harlem?

I can vouch for at least two on 157th St. i actually don't know what ab is talking about. i guess he never visited the Harlem4Kids website. what constantly surprises me on this site is how confidently people make assertions about areas they clearly never visit. i think next time there is a thread on the UES or wall st i'll have to chime in all sorts of negative and definitive statements.

eliz1814, why do you always put your word in others' mouths?

did i ever say heavily white is a healthy environment%uFF1F i guess you are a very sensitive racists

it's easy to judge if a neighborhood is good to raise kids -- would you let your kid play on the streets and dont need to worry? obviously harlem will NEVER be

caonima--there is not a street in NYC that I would allow my child to play on. I venture to say most parents think the same based upon the cars racing up and down the streets. The area has nothing to do with why my kids don't play stick-ball in the middle of the road. Come to think of it, I don't see it much on the suburbs either...

There are actually more children and families per capita in upper Manhattan than in most parts below 96th. But these are not the "families" or "kids" people care about. Its the people who can afford to live below 96th, and choose to move above, that people are referring to when discussing "families" or "kids"

Particularly their parents...

eliz, google 'caonima' before continuing your discussion.

Ah, great tip Huntersburg...

why did mom have to take it down? her name DOES mean fuck your mom. that's not nice.

is mom cracking down on dirty language? i hope she doesn't. that would be very lame.

"There are actually more children and families per capita in upper Manhattan than in most parts below 96th."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxtn6-XQupM

Harlem should not be compared with Brooklyn. People do so because of price point and brownstone housing stock. Brooklyn is a yuppified city in and of itself with loads of creative individuals and excellent restaurant options. But it isn't Manhattan. It is a different city, one step closer to a suburb. Harlem has yet to reach its height for lack of sufficient housing options. There is pent up demand for both townhouses and condominiums on the right blocks. The right blocks in Harlem and I'll add Hamilton Heights aren't plentiful enough. If everyone could buy beautiful townhouses off of Frederick Douglass, between W110th and W 123rd, they would. Problem is, the lot sizes are too small and single family or two family houses in good condition are scarce. Harlem's restaurants and scene has made a great deal of progress. As a resident on West 113th, close to Morningside Park, I have the option of good dining and brunch options nearby, but I'm bothered with retail prices matching the Upper West Side. Foodwise, we have good, not great options. If someone finds an excellent house on a block near the 2/3 or ABCD, restaurants and a grocery store, at a 40% discount to the UWS...it's a great buy. Now try to find it....

Oh and NYC Matt, if you're suggesting people compare the best parts of Brooklyn to the Upper West Side or the Upper East Side, where brownstone stock is abundant as well, then that's absurd. UWS and UES brownstones of similar quality will price at a premium relative to those in Brooklyn because they're in prime Manhattan, which isn't a comparable to Brooklyn. Brooklyn, while great, is not Manhattan. Everyone with a decent sense for real estate valuation will find its closest comparison in Harlem. At this time, the best parts of Brooklyn price at a premium to Harlem. Whether that will remain the case over time is yet to be determined....

"At this time, the best parts of Brooklyn price at a premium to Harlem. "

We were not discussing "the best parts of Brooklyn" in this thread. Not Brooklyn Heights. Prospect Heights. Pay attention.

Unless this is part of a larger RE portfolio or you already know the area well, don't buy based on potential price appreciation. You have to live there day to day.

"Brooklyn, while great, is not Manhattan. Everyone with a decent sense for real estate valuation will find its closest comparison in Harlem. At this time, the best parts of Brooklyn price at a premium to Harlem. Whether that will remain the case over time is yet to be determined...."

LOLOLOL!!!!

@Jason, Park Slope is one of the best parts of Brooklyn. Brooklyn Heights might be more expensive for townhouses, but apartments are priced similarly. Brooklyn Heights' retail offerings are inferior to those of Park Slope, which has much more. Park Slope also has an amazing park, cultural venues, and gorgeous townhouses, etc... @NYCMatt...did you have something to say?

I'm a huge fan of Park Slope but it's major downside to Brooklyn Heights is the fact that it's just so darn far away.

I live on 157th and riverside - love it. Would probably prefer bk heights or maybe park slope (if the right apt/location), but hands down would pick uptown over protect heights or basically any other bk.

aptdude--we're neighbors.

"I'm a huge fan of Park Slope but it's major downside to Brooklyn Heights is the fact that it's just so darn far away. "

From what? Its faster to downtown Manhattan than is Washington Heights, where you live. Its faster even to mid-town if you work on the East side.

"Park Slope is one of the best parts of Brooklyn. Brooklyn Heights might be more expensive for townhouses..."

EXACTLY. This whole thread is about TOWNHOUSES. Keep up!

Eliz--- what do you do/planning to do for schools up here?

I personally could see though why Park Slope might be a better area for upper middle class kids. I could see that.

where exactly is prime park slope? we tried to explore the area on a whim one day when we had a vehicle and i was a little disappointed. i expected something more picturesque. i kept thinking we just weren't in the right area. we were around prospect park west, near the playground in the park.

"where exactly is prime park slope? "

And then there is THAT too. Its not quite as spectacular as they make it out to be.

So I think everyone in this thread is reasonable.

>So I think everyone in this thread is reasonable.

Wow, no dummies here

Uws: that was us, 13 years ago. Went hunting for "prime" PS. Didn't find it. Even though Prospect Park West is prime Park Slope, there's no specific epicenter of prime-ness. It's the entirety of the experience. I only got to enjoy Brooklyn by spending a whole day wandering around a neighborhood.

The spring house tours are a good way to start exploring.

The most picturesque blocks are between President street, 7th avenue, 3rd street and Prospect Park West. Fall is a good time for a stroll, as the trees lose their leaves, you can see the houses better. Driving is a mistake, the beauty is in the texture and subtlety of the materials, and the infinite variations on the same theme.

10023 - where is the best place to get a schedule for the house tours?