There is an apartment in a building that we are considering to buy that has a "cellar" space below (that is the word they are using to describe it). The cellar is furnished with couches, tv, etc, as a living space. However the cellar is not connected to the apartment directly. You have to access it from the public stairwell, almost like a separate apartment. We would want to make stairs to connect... [more]
There is an apartment in a building that we are considering to buy that has a "cellar" space below (that is the word they are using to describe it). The cellar is furnished with couches, tv, etc, as a living space. However the cellar is not connected to the apartment directly. You have to access it from the public stairwell, almost like a separate apartment. We would want to make stairs to connect to the cellar from the main apartment, but the real estate agent is being a little ambiguous about the possibility to do this. At first she presented the stairs as an idea, and said of course the new owner could it, but upon further questioning, she is now wishy washy about it, not sure if it is possible, not sure if the DOB would approve it, have to talk to an architect, etc.
What would be the issue? If the cellar is not zoned as residential, would that be a problem? It is very large, maybe 15 foot ceilings, and the cellar extends out under an outside courtyard, so it has skylights, and an emergency means of egress.
Any reasons why it would not be possible?
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Response by falcogold1
about 14 years ago
Posts: 4159
Member since: Sep 2008
For starters...
What is the building made of?
Rebarb and prestressed concrete? No chance your putting in steps.
If it's an older building you might be able to do this but, you failed to tell us if this is a coop or a condo. In a coop all you need is one board member who feels that it may impact the structure negativly and....no stairs for you.
Zoning issues are only a problem when someone notices that there is a lack of complience. So you put in the steps and make the cellar into a residential space. An angry neighbor notifies the city who sents out an agent who informs you that the space is NOT zoned for residential use and makes you remove the the stairs and presents a fine. If your thinking of rezoning...forget about it.
Make the stairs a conditional of the sale where the seller does all the leg work for approval.
unless you always wanted a cellar.
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Response by mc33433
about 14 years ago
Posts: 72
Member since: Apr 2011
The cellar is actually too big for us to use it as storage. We would only buy this place if we could do stairs, so making it a condition of the sale is a great idea. Apparently the space was supposed to be sold separately for commercial purposes but then they changed their mind and decided to make it an additional space for this apartment. This is a new building. Currently unoccupied. Condo.
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Response by Truth
about 14 years ago
Posts: 5641
Member since: Dec 2009
No windows in a cellar. Even if it has skylights the DOB won't approve it for residential.
Who is using it now with the couches,tv,etc? Who furnished it with those things? The condo board?
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Response by ph41
about 14 years ago
Posts: 3390
Member since: Feb 2008
Are you buying from the Sponsor? If so, let the Sponsor get all the necessary approvals.
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Response by mc33433
about 14 years ago
Posts: 72
Member since: Apr 2011
No one has used the term sponsor with us. I thought coops had sponsors, not condos?
Even with skylights and an emergency exit (exits through the ceiling into the courtyard) it couldn't be residential?
The place is empty. The whole building. So the furnishings are just as models.
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Response by Truth
about 14 years ago
Posts: 5641
Member since: Dec 2009
Right, ph41. Let the sponsor deal with it.
The sponsor probably furnished it with the t.v and couches to make it seem residential.
It's good if you have a teenager who plays instruments/ loud music.
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Response by Truth
about 14 years ago
Posts: 5641
Member since: Dec 2009
mc: Condos have sponsors too.
With 15 ft ceilings it would be hard to use as emergency exit.
Whoever furnished the cellar tried to make it look residential.
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Response by mc33433
about 14 years ago
Posts: 72
Member since: Apr 2011
I guess the only way to find out whether stairs can be built is to apply to the DOB for approval....
We absolutely love it (dream space) if there are stairs. If not.... going through the public stairwell to reach a place to watch TV is not appealing...
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Response by Truth
about 14 years ago
Posts: 5641
Member since: Dec 2009
Unless you have a noisy teenager,mc.
Apply to the DOB, it takes time and then they send inspectors.
Hope it works out for you.
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Response by mc33433
about 14 years ago
Posts: 72
Member since: Apr 2011
No kids. :)
We wouldn't apply to the DOB if we do not own it. And we will not make an offer until we know with certainty stairs can be put in. Kind of a catch 22.
Also, perhaps the ceilings aren't 15 feet. But they were quite a bit higher than average. It really would be amazing if we could do what we want to do with it.
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Response by romary
about 14 years ago
Posts: 443
Member since: Aug 2008
sounds like a cgf. unless one has the dinero, time, energy, patience, timeline to deal with all the obstacles that will be presented on just reading your OP about this bat cave, move the keerist on. gosh there are probably, what only exitythousand other units you could buy that won't have you writing in in 9 months "i bought this money pit and i dont' know how to get rid of it/fix it/get the coop approval anon.
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Response by mc33433
about 14 years ago
Posts: 72
Member since: Apr 2011
Yeah... It's the first place we really liked after 1.5 years of looking that is in our budget. Now I know why it is in our budget!
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Response by falcogold1
about 14 years ago
Posts: 4159
Member since: Sep 2008
mc
you are buying in a new building from the folks that built it and no one has lived in your space yet?
Then your buying from a sponser?
This is a job for.......
YOUR BROKER!
here's the moment to shine. Here's where one's buyer broker say's, "don't even think about it I'll do ALL my due diligence and give you a complete report on the EXACT situation at hand." When the broker get's back to in two days with all the details please post them here so all the folks on this board can marvel at their professional excellence.
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Response by maly
about 14 years ago
Posts: 1377
Member since: Jan 2009
Falco, that's cruel!
Most brokers have absolutely no idea about zoning, permitting and the likes, and they are certainly not going to engage their liability by writing down what you can or can't do.
OP: you need to hire an engineer to assess the feasability of your plans. If it were easy/cheap, the sponsor would have done it already, since it would increase the value of what they are selling, so the odds are not in your favor.
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Response by mc33433
about 14 years ago
Posts: 72
Member since: Apr 2011
The broker we spoke to a couple weeks ago had no idea. They didn't know how the space was zoned (seemed confused by the question) but at our request did speak the building and developer about the stairs. Her response to us was then some ambiguous "yes, you can certainly put in the stairs, but we don't know if it would be approved by the DOB". It made us a little uncomfortable. Our next step will be to visit with an architect and get some more information. As for the building doing stairs themselves, I don't know whether this would be true, but since the condo is almost half sold, some people are anxious to move in, and as I understand they cannot until more than half the building is sold? So our unit being one of the bigger ones, they didn't want to delay with more construction after they decided to add the cellar as a bonus to this apartment. It's not a huge building - 5 floors, 10 apartments all together.
Thank you for all the input.
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Response by falcogold1
about 14 years ago
Posts: 4159
Member since: Sep 2008
The sponsor knows the exact answer
If they can't be clear with you it's because what they KNOW will make you walk.
WALK!
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Response by lad
about 14 years ago
Posts: 707
Member since: Apr 2009
If this is a small building, it's possible that the sponsor doesn't want to spend the money that's required to even apply to DOB. Between architect, structural engineer, and expediter, it's going to cost at least $5k and possibly closer to $10k just to get it in front of the DOB reviewer.
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Response by mc33433
about 14 years ago
Posts: 72
Member since: Apr 2011
Lad, that's what we thought too. And we don't mind the cost/time if it is indeed possible... We just need to make sure it is.... I think a walk through with an engineer is next steps. Thanks, everyone.
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Response by lad
about 14 years ago
Posts: 707
Member since: Apr 2009
Just keep in mind that the whole process could (almost certainly will) take multiple months, and if it's a strange situation, you may go to the DOB with good but not perfect odds.
We had a simpler but still tricky situation, and it took us eight months from the first set of plans to DOB approval, with an expediter and very responsive architects and engineers (yes, plural.... welcome to structural work!). We went in knowing that there was a 25% chance we had spent $10k for the DOB to say "no."
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Response by dmansfi
about 14 years ago
Posts: 10
Member since: Oct 2009
You should hire an architect and an experienced code-consultant. You shouldn't reply on Broker advice or for that matter any advice from Street Easy. really.
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Response by maly
about 14 years ago
Posts: 1377
Member since: Jan 2009
lad, in this context, with a brand-new building and a developer who plays dumb, the odds are not 3-to-1, but rather 1 in 100.
For starters...
What is the building made of?
Rebarb and prestressed concrete? No chance your putting in steps.
If it's an older building you might be able to do this but, you failed to tell us if this is a coop or a condo. In a coop all you need is one board member who feels that it may impact the structure negativly and....no stairs for you.
Zoning issues are only a problem when someone notices that there is a lack of complience. So you put in the steps and make the cellar into a residential space. An angry neighbor notifies the city who sents out an agent who informs you that the space is NOT zoned for residential use and makes you remove the the stairs and presents a fine. If your thinking of rezoning...forget about it.
Make the stairs a conditional of the sale where the seller does all the leg work for approval.
unless you always wanted a cellar.
The cellar is actually too big for us to use it as storage. We would only buy this place if we could do stairs, so making it a condition of the sale is a great idea. Apparently the space was supposed to be sold separately for commercial purposes but then they changed their mind and decided to make it an additional space for this apartment. This is a new building. Currently unoccupied. Condo.
No windows in a cellar. Even if it has skylights the DOB won't approve it for residential.
Who is using it now with the couches,tv,etc? Who furnished it with those things? The condo board?
Are you buying from the Sponsor? If so, let the Sponsor get all the necessary approvals.
No one has used the term sponsor with us. I thought coops had sponsors, not condos?
Even with skylights and an emergency exit (exits through the ceiling into the courtyard) it couldn't be residential?
The place is empty. The whole building. So the furnishings are just as models.
Right, ph41. Let the sponsor deal with it.
The sponsor probably furnished it with the t.v and couches to make it seem residential.
It's good if you have a teenager who plays instruments/ loud music.
mc: Condos have sponsors too.
With 15 ft ceilings it would be hard to use as emergency exit.
Whoever furnished the cellar tried to make it look residential.
I guess the only way to find out whether stairs can be built is to apply to the DOB for approval....
We absolutely love it (dream space) if there are stairs. If not.... going through the public stairwell to reach a place to watch TV is not appealing...
Unless you have a noisy teenager,mc.
Apply to the DOB, it takes time and then they send inspectors.
Hope it works out for you.
No kids. :)
We wouldn't apply to the DOB if we do not own it. And we will not make an offer until we know with certainty stairs can be put in. Kind of a catch 22.
Also, perhaps the ceilings aren't 15 feet. But they were quite a bit higher than average. It really would be amazing if we could do what we want to do with it.
sounds like a cgf. unless one has the dinero, time, energy, patience, timeline to deal with all the obstacles that will be presented on just reading your OP about this bat cave, move the keerist on. gosh there are probably, what only exitythousand other units you could buy that won't have you writing in in 9 months "i bought this money pit and i dont' know how to get rid of it/fix it/get the coop approval anon.
Yeah... It's the first place we really liked after 1.5 years of looking that is in our budget. Now I know why it is in our budget!
mc
you are buying in a new building from the folks that built it and no one has lived in your space yet?
Then your buying from a sponser?
This is a job for.......
YOUR BROKER!
here's the moment to shine. Here's where one's buyer broker say's, "don't even think about it I'll do ALL my due diligence and give you a complete report on the EXACT situation at hand." When the broker get's back to in two days with all the details please post them here so all the folks on this board can marvel at their professional excellence.
Falco, that's cruel!
Most brokers have absolutely no idea about zoning, permitting and the likes, and they are certainly not going to engage their liability by writing down what you can or can't do.
OP: you need to hire an engineer to assess the feasability of your plans. If it were easy/cheap, the sponsor would have done it already, since it would increase the value of what they are selling, so the odds are not in your favor.
The broker we spoke to a couple weeks ago had no idea. They didn't know how the space was zoned (seemed confused by the question) but at our request did speak the building and developer about the stairs. Her response to us was then some ambiguous "yes, you can certainly put in the stairs, but we don't know if it would be approved by the DOB". It made us a little uncomfortable. Our next step will be to visit with an architect and get some more information. As for the building doing stairs themselves, I don't know whether this would be true, but since the condo is almost half sold, some people are anxious to move in, and as I understand they cannot until more than half the building is sold? So our unit being one of the bigger ones, they didn't want to delay with more construction after they decided to add the cellar as a bonus to this apartment. It's not a huge building - 5 floors, 10 apartments all together.
Thank you for all the input.
The sponsor knows the exact answer
If they can't be clear with you it's because what they KNOW will make you walk.
WALK!
If this is a small building, it's possible that the sponsor doesn't want to spend the money that's required to even apply to DOB. Between architect, structural engineer, and expediter, it's going to cost at least $5k and possibly closer to $10k just to get it in front of the DOB reviewer.
Lad, that's what we thought too. And we don't mind the cost/time if it is indeed possible... We just need to make sure it is.... I think a walk through with an engineer is next steps. Thanks, everyone.
Just keep in mind that the whole process could (almost certainly will) take multiple months, and if it's a strange situation, you may go to the DOB with good but not perfect odds.
We had a simpler but still tricky situation, and it took us eight months from the first set of plans to DOB approval, with an expediter and very responsive architects and engineers (yes, plural.... welcome to structural work!). We went in knowing that there was a 25% chance we had spent $10k for the DOB to say "no."
You should hire an architect and an experienced code-consultant. You shouldn't reply on Broker advice or for that matter any advice from Street Easy. really.
lad, in this context, with a brand-new building and a developer who plays dumb, the odds are not 3-to-1, but rather 1 in 100.