Suing developers to fix noisy floors and ceilings?

BTW keep high heels away from the hardwood.

We were led to believe the high heels and dress shoes would not be a problem but it is. I do not like to walk around barefoot nor do I want my guests to go barefoot. Fixing the noise problem is pretty basic and easy to do especially considering that the building is a new conversion and is still be worked on by the developers. But fixing the ceiling for soundproofing is much more difficult and takes a lot of inches of the ceiling height, hence, wanting to rip the hardwood floors and doing it properly.

Sue the bastards. Multiply the dollar value of your annoyance by one thousand, multiply that by 365 days, multiply that by 50 years, and now you have the amount of damages you should seek.
Best of luck!

Just curious if the seller included info on soundproofing in marketing brochures re 12" thick cielings, or in the offering plan. I thought they routinely put some kind of foam type material down below the actual floors. Just curious, what about the walls? Did they advertise those as soundproof too?

You may want to see a lawyer, not sure if it would be successful, but sometimes the retention of counsel will do the trick. The problem is that the work would have to be done on your neighbors apt rather than yours, unless you wanted a soundproofing company to work on your cielings. How high are they?

Could be easier to do if they are still heavily into constructing but probably not if you are already living there.

http://soundproofingwithdave.com/2006_11_01_archive.html

Found an interesting article

Really curious where the building is... sounds like my building but I haven't had too many noise problems!

Who is the management company?

I hate to say which building since I don't want to harm the reputation or potential sales, but at the same time I do want people to be not only aware of this issue but to DEMAND better construction and better materials in the construction in the way they lay hardwood floors. People need to quit saying, "Well, it's NY. There is noise". That is such a cop-out. I'm not asking for "attention to detail" type of construction technique; I'm talking more about laying the proper foam, cork, mass loaded vinyle, and similiar materials under the floors. The quality of life issue is such a big issue now but it could have been easily avoided and can be fixed.

Tony, nice link. That is the exact type of problems people in my building face. It just compounds the negative aspects because I OWN this apartment now; I'm not renting it.

Just curious how much construction till it's finished, what % sold, still available. Sounds like your neighbors are already in upstairs so it might be tough to get much reconstruction. Have you talked to them? Also, are other people complaining?

The building should be finished by this summer I think. We're about 50% in contract or sold and neighbors up and down have already moved in. Since the building isn't sold out or even remotely close to having all the people moved in, the people without neighbors are very happy and wondering what all the fuss is about while the people with neighbors know first hand the loud impact noise from the hardwood floors.

I just talked to a rep from the link Tony from above provided. The 1/2" thick rubber mats "AMERICAN IMPACT PRO FLOORING" cost $3.50 a sq ft and sounds like it will do the trick to stopping the impact noise. I would like the developers to buy and install these in everyone's apartment.

Sounds good. I don't know why developers in this day and age build or redevelop housing that crams people together and doesn't account for sound.

In apts I have lived in other places, there was an effort to configure units so living spaces do not abut each other (i.e., there are closets, bathrooms, kitchens, etc. between units.) Also, and I know this is a no no in NYC design -- wtw carpeting, at least in bedrooms. Not so much I have noticed around here.

given only 50% are in contract or sold, you should disclose the building. if the issue impacts future sales, it's a good incentive for the developer to fix the problem if it wants to move the units. otherwise, what's the incentive to rectify? only if someone like you takes the burden (and the expense) to take them to court. that seems awfully painful.

ProperService,

There are several issues that many seem to simplify when considering appropriate sound attenuation.

Before considering legal action you should have a professional measure the IIC (Impact Insulation Class). New York's required minimum is 51. If the flooring assembly surpasses this requirement you have little ability to pursue damages.

In addition it's a fallacy that thicker underlayments will provide a IIC rating. In fact most oft a 1/4" mat will be equivalent to 1/2". There are other products that are superior to what you've mentioned.

Email me if you need further information.

ProperService-Why don't you and other residents get together and push the developer. We did that and got good results with regards to speeding up the punch list open items and adding newly discovered issues to our punch-lists.

Flea - I think you forgot to provide your e-mail address.

mmm333, We are doing that as well but the impact noise is not on it right now. And, since most of the people living in the building don't have neighbors yet, they are not pushing it and the developers really don't want to address this and would rather it be an owners issue. I don't think they want to rip up the wood floors and lay rubber mats, or mass-loaded vinyl, or gypecrete, or whatever and put the wood floors back on. The wood floors are "floating" and are not nailed to the below concrete, so, it is easily removable. Second, around and under all the doors are enough space (approx. 1/2" to 3/4") to allow the raising of the floor from additional materials underneath. The large gaps under the doors which were faults at first could make it easier and less expensive to add some type of protective sound barrier.

flea, are you an acoustical engineer or work for one? I would like to contact you but what is the best way to do so?

Interesting, at my place they told me that there was some kind of foam under the hardwood floors... do they tend to ever nail these down? I know at one point people were complaining about the boards coming up.

Engineered Wood floors are glued, hardwood floors are nailed-this is what I was led to believe. Looks like engineered wood is in fashion these days

ProperService - Try me at itsflea22 "at" hotmail.com

If the materials are floated, there is almost certainly some sort of underlayment.

Floating floors are easy to repair, but mostly glued together which ensures that removing/replacing isn't so easy. Likely the cost to retrofit, if simply a matter of remove/reinstall would run the builder (Whom is usually the source of issues, not the developer) in the $5/SF range. This may seem economical on a small scale, but figure 200 Units * 800 SF = $800K!

Try to find out from your representative:

1) Exact wood installed, including it's specifications, and if it's T & G or Click

2) Underlayment - Specs' again

3) Slabs can be extremely thick, but this means nothing - one has to take into account the structure of the concrete, at 12" it is almost certainly hollow.

mmm33,

Not necessarily:

Engineered Wood may be: Floated, Nailed, or Glued

Solid Wood may be: Nailed, or Glued (Pending subfloor, and hydrostatic pressure)

Gluing and floating are best forms of installation, regardless of material. Mechanical fastening, RE: Nails, creates excess noise - think squeaky floors!

Many condo associations will have restrictions on how much hardwood you can have, either by requiring area rugs or not allowing hardwood in the bedrooms (if the units are stacked). If someone is walking on a hardwood floor with hard shoes, you WILL hear it, no matter how well it's soundproofed. I, for one, take off my shoes when I'm at home, and insist on it with all my visitors. It's much more civilized and comfortable.

There would not be a requirement by the condo association if the developers treated the hardwood floors properly in the first. This is exactly the reason why I'm interested in fixing the impact noise so that I don't have to take my shoes off and neither do my guests. Ditto for everybody else in my building.

The concrete floors are 12" thick and solid. It's an old pre-war building but gutted out and hence, no sound protection.

Its your own fault. You thought it was a brilliant idea to buy a property on spec instead of buying a property that you could go and see and investigate in advance. This was probably one of your biggest investments, by far, and yet you had the mindset that you would put your money in without any true knowledge of the outcome.

I didn't buy on spec. My unit was finished as well as all the units on my floor and units below and some above me when I went to contract and bought. And, I did check the soundproofing features in all the buildings that I looked and the building I bought into had the "best" in comparison to other comparables.

You know, I'm not a cheap guy and I'm not a noisy neighbor but I do want my "home" to feel like a home and not a cheap rental I've been living in for years to save up on $$$. If worse comes to worse, I'll just pay for the redo of the wood floors and lay a proper material underneath and chalk it up to home improvement renovations. I have to run attitional electrical wires anyway. It feels like I bought a fixer-upper instead of a luxury new conversion condo. At least it's tax deductible now.

I don't understand: noise comes UP through your floors from the apt below? If so, I guess re-doing your own floors would help, although it sounds expensive to rip up your flooring, lay the new soundproof layer and then re-lay new flooring since I assume you would destroy the old floor when ripping it up. If the noise comes from above, which is what I imagine is where most of it is from, are you going to redo your upstairs neighbor's floors?

Do you have to move out temporarily to redo the floors? Doesn't all the furniture and baseboard moulding have to be removed first? More expense. Then replacing baseboards and probably repainting since no way are wall getting through this unscathed. It sounds just awful. And resolving it without a contribution from the contractor/sponsor/agents, etc? Sounds like litigation, too. You tell a very informative cautionary tale. Thank you for pointing out something to really look for when purchasing.

I can't hear any noise from my downstairs neighbor but they can hear my footsteps so I am going to redo the floors. Nothing like having your co-workers and boss over for dinner and telling them to take their shoes and high heels off because it makes too much noise for my downstairs neighbor. This will also fix any FUTURE idea by the eventual condo board to require laying 70% rugs because now my fellow neighbors will also complain about the loud impact noise from the wood floors.

I'll have to do something about the ceiling as well. If I can't get them to do the same thing to their floors as I am doing to mine, then I guess I will do some type of soundproofing or adding additional materials on my ceiling. It's not going to be as effective as treating the wood floor but I don't want to do anything that will cause me to lose too much ceiling height. Luckily, my ceiling height is over 11'.

A related question pertains to the soundproofing capability of the party walls in an apartment. How does one go about evaluating the quality of the sound insulation, especially in a new development in order to make sure that no shortcuts were taken? I understand that the NYC DOB code requires an STC rating of 51 for the party walls, but this is the bare minimum.

I would want to be able to play movies or music loud and not have the neighbors going crazy over it (and vice versa). Is this even realistic in a NYC apartment?

I think that there's little sensitivity to this in NYC. That's why companies like City Soundproofing are so successful!

I feel your pain. I'm looking for the same things as you. I'm shopping around for a condo right now and soundproofing is the most important item I'm looking at while deciding which building to buy into. The building must have the basic solid construction:

1. Thick solid concrete floors and ceilings. (Newer concrete floorings in some buildings are hollow)
2. High finished ceilings over 10'. Must have electrical and light fixtures. (You'd be amazed at the number of new "lofts" that go bare ceilings in order to achieve a higher ceiling height)
3. Units wall made with masonary as the structural wall.

So far, not many in my price range comes close, but I have been able to get the developers to go lower in price to make up for the fact that I have to completely redo the condo after I buy it.

One thought would be to put a "soundproofing contigency" into a bid for a unit. Never done here in NYC as far as I know but in some other cities I've seen places where you can buy a "soundproofing package."

The downside is that it might be difficult to get a meeting of the minds on what kind of soundproofing, and in some cases you'll lose floor space and ceiling height, unless they take down the walls, etc. Could be you can work something out where work has not been completed.

The other issue is that while soundproofing may help, there is no guarantee that you won't hear anything.

It seems like the easiest option for party walls is to retrofit additional soundproofing after the fact. Products like quietrock can be overlayed on existing drywall and are rated at STC 60+. However STC tests do not cover below 125Hz which is where the bass and loudness of home theater and rock music etc are most prevalent .. any comments from city dwelling sound mavens out there?

Do you have any additional information, link re quietrock?

QuietRock is way too expensive. For the same cost you lay the thin concrete cinder blocks and cover with 2 layers of regular drywall... (I think, I didn't take into consideration the cost of labor).

http://quietsolution.com/html/quietrock.html

ProperSerice, I don't know the first thing on this topic, but read this Curbed post and wondered if the IIC code might do you some good.

"A couple years ago the city updated it's noise code for new construction and especially the impact noise portion to higher standards, the IIC code. Condo owners in NYC will bitch about the improper grout being done in the bathroom shower (takes about $25 to fix) but not bitch "to the developer" about improper construction materials. They complain after the fact, to 311 and the cops about neighbor noise and then the condo board requirement for rugs covering the hardwood floors. The developers by LAW have to address and fix these shoddy, loud sound leaks."

This thread is a strong cautionary tale about new construction risks. I suspect the quality of most new construction in the past few years will come back to haunt owners in the next decade(s).

I'm still shopping around for the proper course of action to take. Getting bids from different people on doing tests to measure the Sound Transmission Class (STC) and Impact Isolation Class (IIC) in my unit. I feel like I have to do these tests in order to establish a paper trail and record what I live with. The tests are expensive. I got a quote from acoustilog.com for around $1,400 for a standard test and printed report and around $2,300 for the complete test including the IIC - impact noise test. The whole thing only takes a couple of hours. I'm trying to get other bids.

tenemental, the quote you pasted is exactly how I feel! At least I'm not alone and after talking with a bunch of acoustical contractors and acoustical consultants, the noise compliant is very, very common among new condo and co-op owners. It is the #1 complaint and is very common and NYC did revise its IIC code as of June 2007. I'm unsure of how it is implemented right now. If developers started their projects before this date are they grandfathered to the old standard or all projects supposed to meet these new guidelines? I'm also shopping for a real estate attorney to deal with this. No, I'm not using the real estate lawyer I hired for the closing, he was from Brooklyn Heights totally useless. I'll post what I find out.

I have quite by accident become a novice acoustical expert. Green glue and regular drywall is better than or equal to quietrock and is less $$$.

I'm thinking that you should invite all of your neighbors who currently DO NOT have anyone living above them to your place for a little 'show & tell' - be sure to have someone upstairs stomping about so that they will then know what's in store & then EVERYONE will be on the same page.

I've had it to my eyeballs with this place. I'm cutting my loses and looking at other places to live. Hopefully, within the next year I can move out.

FYI, the building I was trying to propect is none other than BELLTEL LOFTS! Keep away! The hard walking on heels by the stroller moms and nannies is just too much. Who the hell wants to live in a home they paid over a million dollars and have to wear ear plugs at night because babies are screaming their heads off and thier b*tchy parents are stomping hard on their heels above you 24/7?

BELLTEL blows!

..."protect".

Did you do any soundproofing for either your floors or ceiling? BTW, thanks for letting us know the name of the building.

1OneWon - The bids for soundproofing my ceilings was more than I can afford right now since most of my reserves have been used for the down payment, closing, furniture and etc.. I will have to wait about a year before starting the project. Even then, there is no guarantee it will do any good. I think it's just best to start over in a new, I mean a different building.

Belltel is an excellent building, it's just too bad the fat, old, unemployed-petty-moms never leave their apartments and stomp around above you as if they're on a marching band all day and night. And, of course their bratty little kids throwing things on the floor and running hard 24/7!

This purchase is the worst decision of my entire life. The mean spirited moms are single handlily destroying the livability in this building. The buildings blog is not engaged anymore since all the stroller moms have hi-jacked it and will not "allow" any opposing views. They even made a requirement to post your real names and your unit # on all posts!! It's just crazy!

Beware of these "child-friendly" buildings. People with children somehow feel entitled and self indulgent and don't give a shit. They expect the world to bend over for them, for some reason. My building VOTED DOWN any prospective playrooms, stroller storages and such. What's more, they move in with one child and then pop out more, bringing the quality of life in the building down (overpopulation!)

ProperSerice - I feel for you. In fact I know exactly what you mean. I too had to move out from a new conversion building because I couldnt take the bad construction and noisey neighbors.

My neighbor(s) was in and out of their apartment when most people should be sleeping. They would let their door slam shut like it was nothing. We complained but to no avail.

So in the end we moved out. Granted it was the cheap a$$ developer's fault for using the cheapest construction materials but our neighbors did not help.

We moved out and I'm so much happier!

I've been wanting to check out the units in this building for a long time but now I'm not so sure I should even consider it. I'm grateful for such truthful and insider information regarding everything from building materials and workmanship to building politics but it I'm still curious and want to look at the units. Is it really that noisy in there or is it pretty much on par for similar buildings?

I just read the entire thread & it's a very sad turn of events. I'm so glad I didn't buy within the last two years even though I REALLY, REALLY wanted to but with all these negative posts regarding new construction and new conversions, it just seems the best bet is to buy at an established building (perhaps pre-war) with an established track record and postive reviews.

Thanks for the eye opener!

ps. Do you guys think with this building being in Brooklyn has any bearing on the quality being even less than it should be if this building was in Manhattan?

Do what the curbers did from this thread and BTW, at the bottom your building is also mentioned! I don't know if I should say congratulations or condolances! Either way, it's not good.
http://curbed.com/archives/2008/05/07/ask_curbed_the_little_ones_upstairs_are_making_me_insane.php#reader_comments

My personal favorite is calling them at all hours of the night and knocking or ringing their door bell at all hours!

Check this link out. Click on the "March 1, 2008" link (it's a pdf). Looks like perhaps the industry is shifting away from fancy appliances and going towards solid construction and soundproofing in the NYC luxury market! Let's hope this is true!!!!

http://luxuryloft.com/luxuryletter.php

Direct link:
http://luxuryloft.com/files/luxuryletters/LUXURYLETTER_MARCH_2008.pdf

ProperSerice, I am in contract at BelTell. Please email me at aemmert2002@msn.com so we can talk further. Since I have not yet closed, I may get a little more of their "ear" on this.

....as far as the attack on the "stroller mom's": I'm not a fan of inconsiderate parents who run you over in the street with the SUV-like, giant strollers, but I will say noone looks out for property values more than families. So the fact that this is a family-building, I'll take as a positive.

TripleR - Nice link. Better construction materials I think would definitily cut down on the "quality of life" issues for all NYers. Though I wonder what the cut off in dollar amount is actually considered "luxury" in NYC. I paid over a million but this being NYC, it's more average to upper average. I NEVER thought of it as luxury.

aemmert - Word of advice, get out of contract. It's not worth the stress you're going to get, relationship problems with your "whoever" and a big sense of buyers remorse. There are so much better and more choices right now. But, regardless good luck and hope you don't have any problems.

ProperSerice, I looked at Belltel lofts and after talking with some people, the concrete thickness is not over 12 inches but in fact 10 inches. Two inches don't seem that big a deal but why would they lie about it? Your bamboo floors are glued to a thin cork underlayment (1/8") which in turn is glued to the concrete floor. Talk about a recipe for disaster! Clipper Equity is the developer and they are the same guys trying to buy Starrett City housing projects in Brooklyn for billions of dollars. For the money it will take to fix this horrible design and construction, like you said, it will be just easier and less expensive to start over in another building. Your concerns about the impact noise is pretty common in new construction. I don't know what type of unit you have but if you want to unload it, you might have to take a hit on the price. Not a pleasant thought since you just bought this place. Right now I live in a very nice rental building and it is quiet. It's expensive and for the cost of my rent I could buy a condo of the same size but I know the bones of the building and apartment won't compare to what I'm living in right.

EastRiver -- what about a foam underlayment? Would that be better?

Some of the other posters have suggested 1/2" to 3/4" of rubber mats. The link I provided earlier is considered to be very effective.
http://www.soundseal.com/impacta/soundeater.shtml

The foam underlayment is not going to be enough to stop and lessen the sound from the hard wood floors. Foam underlayment is fine for carpeting but not for hardwood floors I was told.

will,
I can't answer that question. I don't have any experience with this and neither do most, if not all the general contractors in the city. They will gladly give you a recommendation and take your money to do the job but they will not guarentee it or stand by their work. But, in my personal opinion, I don't think the foam would do much. The better bet would seem to use the soundeater that TripleR stated and the rubber mats used together.

Easy problem to fix. Install speakers underneath their kids bedroom and play it loud when they decide to run laps or when the old, wrinkled, fat mom starts stomping around in her mumu! If it worked for me, then it can work for you! Good luck!

almost thought about looking at belltel with today's announcement of no taxes but then remembered this thread

Hi - does anyone know if this issue was ever addressed? We have verbally accepted an offer but nothing has been finalized.

I suggest going and checking the apartment you look to buy at different times of day/evening. This is not a widespread problem in the building. I live in the building and have never had a proble. While ProperSerice made a lot of "noise" about this on the Blogs, we recently had a Board/Owners' meeting and not a single person brought this issue up as a problem....

Wow, does this bring back memories. YMMV, but I gave up on fixing this - it is too expensive and I don't want to be throwing money at this in this economy. I'm saving for a raining day. I guess you could say I had "no-choice" but to learn to tolerate loud noise and impact noise. It isn't as bothersome as it was before in part because I get along with my neighbors and work it out. I also go out more, eat out more and just leave the apartment more - which is good I guess but not on my wallet ;).

The FHA is a great deal and if you're interested you should check it out but ask plenty of questions and bring a friend along so that they can "create noise in adjacent units and see if your ok with it. Also, certain unit lines are better than others in construction quality. I guess some lines were made by good union workers and other lines by off the street non-union workers - or so we were told....

Buyer beware

Any updates on this? ProperSerivce, what line is your apt? I'm looking at the F line resale. Is that yours?

I just closed & moved into the building two weeks ago. Everyone's mileage will vary, but I haven't noticed any noise problems. We can very occasionally and faintly hear footsteps in the apartment above ours, but it's nothing I consider troublesome or egregious.

This is the monster going up right south in front of the building (and there is already another one west of the building):
http://www.slcearch.com/current-projects/avalon-willoughby-square/

Anyone interested in getting this thread going again? Looks like it's been about 6 years and i wonder what has changed since the IIC code was updated. I ask because I am in a similar situation now with a so called "luxury" apartment. I don't particularly like the term, but one would think it includes not being able to hear your upstairs neighbors walk from one side of the apartment to the other, or be jolted out of your seat because they accidentally drop something. I feel so naive for having not tested the noise isolation and blowing our life savings on a place we are now stuck with. What i'm trying to figure out is if the developers are on the hook if the IIC is below 50. Are they responsible for reconstruction at whatever cost it may be?