Families Forsake Suburbs

yes bc the prices for nyc have come down....

It's like eating 10 tacos bc it's priced at $1....

But then McD will come out with $.20 burgers.... and those 10 tacos just gives you gas.

"The Isis, on East 77th Street, has strategically placed studios next to large units for families who want to combine apartments or have one for their nanny, he said." Except, I don't see any studios in the Isis...

price of nyc never came down. those people are forced to do so due to the bad transportation system. trains are slow and becoming more un-reliable

stuvwxy99, that's because there aren't any. Up through the 6th floor, the A has two bedrooms and the B has two and an office. From the 7th up to the PH setbacks, the A has an extra bedroom cantilevered off the back of the building. Those could never have been planned as studios, as there's no way to get to them from the stair/elevator hall.

Families "forsake" suburbs? Where does the article back that up. That more people try to stay in Manhattan rather then flee it is not news whatsoever. And if you do the demographics I am guessing the number leaving vs. returning still skews to "leaving".

And quoting broker reports that prices as soon to hit "stratospheric levels"? Come on, that is so 2007.

I do know of people who have "fled" the suburbs for large apartments in the city. It is one family, they are "post-child rearing" who have sold their homes in the suburbs for 2-3 BR apartments in the city.

I know far more families that have moved, including lots of investment bankers at that managing director and above.

This is a poorly written article. It makes a statement in the title which is not backed up by numbers, but goes onto talk about other numbers, price changes and an old trend of making larger apartments.

I have seen a lot of young families moving to Brooklyn, NJ and Westchester. There was even an article in the times this week about people finding great deals in the burbs...

"I have seen a lot of young families moving to Brooklyn, NJ and Westchester"

Every young fam that moved to the burbs I know of did it not really by choice but bc they were priced out.. They usually term it as "more space," which means the same thing..

2-3 years later you find them hunting for a workable arrangement in the city once they realize how commuting/social life suffers tremendously.. we call them boomerangs

Will be interesting to see how this plays out. With private school tuition hovering around 40k in Manhattan, low 30's in Brooklyn, and Wall St. bonuses being cut, not to mention jobs, suspect that many families will have little choice, unless prices drop.

definitely going to be some life style adjustments unless prices come down or p[laces start taking iou's on stock grants

"I have seen a lot of young families moving to Brooklyn, NJ and Westchester"
once they realize how commuting/social life suffers tremendously.. we call them boomerangs

wait, their social life suffers tremendously by moving to Brooklyn? are you sure you are not overdoing it?

Yup, many young families moving to the burbs

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/12/realestate/westchester-in-the-region-low-end-deals-in-pricey-zip-codes.html?_r=2&ref=realestate

are you kidding me, have you seen the stroller processions in tribeca, bpc, and the uws. try eating at landmarc on the weekend, trendy spot has absolutley bowed to the mommy and me crowd. you need a valet for the bumblebees - w67th is spot on again. folks are finding ways to stay in the city with the family expansion as it becomes more affordable before selling their souls for the burbs....

rangersfan, does 67 let you blow him for being so such a sycophant? did your dad teach you the right way to make hime feel good, or was that mommy's job?

Yes, I have seen them. But have you seen any of the similar places in the burbs to have a point of comparison?

I agree -- poorly researched, structured, and written article.

More accurately it should be titled "Many More Rich Families Staying in the City".

"Families" are not forsaking the suburbs. "Families" are still fleeing the city, because the vast majority of "families" cannot even begin to imagine affording 3, 4, or 5 bedroom Manhattan apartments (much less buying a studio in the same building for the nanny).

rangersfan, what is your original handle here? ive posted very little these last months but you seem to know a bit about me.

dont forget the "rental jockey" income affords me the ability to raise my daughter here--comfortably. i guess my family is one of the rich ones matt was referring to.

get on your knees and open that mouth bitch.

now hurry up and get those keys!! fifteen high school dropouts are circling their wagons gunning for you.

this is very true in Brooklyn. Lived in various neighborhoods here, and people are scrambling for large condos rentals and buying up houses.

Tsk Tsk Amy,
It's one thing to slap your name on some shotty PR intern's first crack at flack but to be so unprofessional as not to proof the piece prior to submission is a level of laziness to be marveled at.
Bravo!

what a crock

Once I saw the white/Asian folks pushing strollers in Washington Heights I suspected something was up. Seriously, I think between needing two cars, car insurance, lawn car, cost of upkeep of home makes, commuting in/out of city during rush hour makes renting/buying in the city downright cheap and far less annoying.

We have three children in city and it's working out very well.

"I think between needing two cars, car insurance, lawn car, cost of upkeep of home makes, commuting in/out of city during rush hour makes renting/buying in the city downright cheap and far less annoying."

If you can afford $4500/month in rent for a 3-bedroom.

If you can't, it's not "downright cheap" at all.

yes, i want my kids NOT to have a back yard. over pay for their education for 12/13 yrs. overpay for after school care for 5/6 yrs. live like rats sharing a 8X8 cell, i mean bedroom. have a complex because their friends' daddies have multimillion $$$ apartments. and only pay $4500 per month for a shitty breadbox.

for $4500 per month, you can live in a huge house with great schools and drive in every morning to work. and best part, if you are realistic that you need $6K+ to live in a nice apartment in manhattan and you can get a nice house for less then $4K per month that will be twice the size of the apartment, you realize that your wife can stay home and watch the kids and you will still save more money. no more before/after school care expenses, that adds up fast.

Agree with ab1138, the only tools touting living in nyc right now are either:
A) got free money from relatives;
B) don't work in finance;
C) bought in 1995-2001, and rode the bubble up.

For a newly minted 'go getter, the collapse of the bubble prices in larchmont, manhasset, etc. means buy in burbs, wait out in burbs and bank the monthly savings till interest rate rises and the dam busts in nyc re. And trust me that geitner dam ain't worth the shitty house he can't sell in larchmont. Fkinng tool that Keebler elf.

ab - firstly, most kids do not use the backyard. Look around the average suburb.
4k might be a reasonable mortgage but taxes are atrocious in most towns. My sister, in NJ, pays over 14k/yr. And, on top of it because of school cutback also drives her child since bus access was trimmed. never mind buying all school supplies. What are those taxes for again?

Let's discuss the cars. Say $300-400 for each payments and insurance? And, ever heated/air conditioned a 2500+ sq ft home? Or paid for a boiler, new roof, etc...

There was an interesting study profiled a year ago in the NYT. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/23/science/23family.html?pagewanted=all

Look at what it says about backyard use - Outside the homes, the yards were open and green — but “no one was out there,” said Jeanne E. Arnold, a U.C.L.A. archaeologist who worked on the study. One family had a 17,000-square-foot yard, with a pool and a trampoline, and not even the children ventured out there during the study.

Background to study:

At a conference here this month, more than 70 social scientists gathered to bring to a close one of the most unusual, and oddly voyeuristic, anthropological studies ever conceived. From 2002 to 2005, before reality TV ruled the earth, researchers at the University of California, Los Angeles, laboriously recruited 32 local families, videotaping nearly every waking, at-home moment during a week — including the Jacket Standoff.

But the U.C.L.A. project was an effort to capture a relatively new sociological species: the dual-earner, multiple-child, middle-class American household. The investigators have just finished working through the 1,540 hours of videotape, coding and categorizing every hug, every tantrum, every soul-draining search for a missing soccer cleat.

W67: I totally tout living in NYC, especially if you have the schools figured out. I don't tout buying in NYC or the burbs.

and if you work in the city, you are not driving in. you are taking the train. aside from the added expenses, think about how much less time you get to spend with your kids each day because you are commuting. Penn station at 5pm might as well be hell.

"4k might be a reasonable mortgage but taxes are atrocious in most towns."

Why are you assuming a $4K mortgage?

In NJ you can get a nice three-bedroom house with a $2K mortgage, $1K for the taxes, and $1K left over for the automobile expenses.

"4k might be a reasonable mortgage but taxes are atrocious in most towns."

Why are you assuming a $4K mortgage?

In NJ you can get a nice three-bedroom house with a $2K mortgage, $1K for the taxes, and $1K left over for the automobile expenses."

AND 3 COURSE DINNERS AT TGI FRIDAYS FOR ONLY $12.99

"Penn station at 5pm might as well be hell."

I agree entirely, this is precisely why I would never move to NJ or LI. Not sure how Westchester doesn't get a major price premium for Grand Central VS Penn Station alone. Ever notice which train lines have more delays and problems with weather...etc.? LIRR and NJ Transit all day long...

In NJ you can get a nice three-bedroom house with a $2K mortgage, $1K for the taxes, and $1K left over for the automobile expenses. <--is this nice house a nice bi-level in a rundown town with a crappy school system?

Why do people here assume that someone with a $4500 monthly nut would budget $300-400/month for each car? It is sort of like saying that to live in Manhattan one needs to spend $3-4 million on an apartment. Obviously there are people who do that, but most won't and don't. $400/month buys a lot of car and leases much more. And if you are buying you don't have to pay for it after 4 or so years so the expense disappears faster than a mortgage. And why do both cars have to be new or leased?

not to mention that most families in the city also own a car, but if so are paying closer to $150-200/month in insurance and $200-500/month for parking, even before paying for the car itself.

Insurance is even less of a problem. At $100/month, (sometimes less, sometimes more, depends on a lot) it just doesn't amount to much.

For those who want to argue that the City is more expensive it is a mistake to discount the costs of cars, taxes, etc. Likewise, for those who live in the city it is a mistake to inflate those costs and to ignore that many in the city have them as well (or need to substitute car rentals, taxis and Zipcar).

liz....

go to summit, westfield, etc and you'll see nice houses at around $600-700K with taxes $10-14K. with $200K down, 4% 30 yr loan, that's under $2K-2300 per month for mortgage. now take your 900 sq ft shit box for $4500 add to it 3 tuitions (3 X $3K per month) $9K and you're spending $13.5K per month. once you move to a nicer neighborhood and 1200 sq ft so that your kids have more space and you have decent schools, you're up to $9K per month. in nj/li/etc the afterschool is $500 or less, in manhattan it's $600 or more.

no matter how you twist or turn, it's cheaper, much cheaper, to live in the burbs. my kids would run around outside a yard, if we had one. we had a long driveway and the kids were outside almost on daily basis on their bikes/scooters after they came back from camp/after school program. once you add the other activities for the kids (karate, dance, art...) that cost almost double in manhattan, you've go to be blind not to see that burbs are cheaper to raise a family.

i forgot, to afford staying in manhattan, you'll have to work 12-14 hr days rather then 8-10 hr if you were to move to the burbs. so you either travel or work and not spend more time with the family.

being able to afford having mom stay home with the kids after they come home, is....... priceless

Actually my shit box is 1600 sq ft but, whatever.

As far as NJ. Can't agree it's cheaper unless you go to a crappy area. Most people want the short hills/Montclair school system. Sure you can get places in Westfield but do you want your kids in that school system? It's just not a great suburb. Also, the traffic in NJ is horrific. Go anywhere from 4-7 and you'll come back and agree. Never mind the lawn care and shoveling the driveway in the winter. Do you want to do that? No, you'll hire someone. Work 8 hours a day in the suburbs? Sure. Then commute for about 90 min each way.

We rented in the suburbs when we just had one child to see what it was like and fled back to the city. I'm sure it's great for some people but I think the benefits are buried by the endless number of hidden costs in terms of time and money.

If you earn more than half a million dollars a year, then the additional NYC income tax will cost you $16,000 a year. (something like 3.8%?)

typo, $19,000/yr , not $16,000/yr

We have looked at the economics of the burbs bc my husband wants a backyard, but the math never works. With two working parents, the commuting costs (financially --train tickets, cars, insurance and physically--hours on the train) are exorbitant. Neither of us earns enough for the other to sit at home and more importantly, BOTH of us want to work. Our box in the City is 1200 sf and large enough for our family of 4. Our kids go to public school and after school is $1200/yr for both kids. We would need a nanny or au pair in the burbs. We don't have a car and those expenses and headaches. Finally, we enjoy our weekends with the kids as opposed to caring for our home. For families with one-breadwinner, it probably makes more financial sense.

liz, you have 1600 sq ft in a good school district for $4500 per month????

on the other hand, if you think that Westfield school district sucks, you've been breathing the exaust for way too long.

REMom, how do you get $1200 per yr after school program???? I'm paying $900 per month for 2 and I'm in Brooklyn.

NJ = Gross Income Tax State (1 of about 9 in the nation)

Therefore, you can't deduct ANYTHING, as you do on Federal and NY tax returns..

...save medical subject to 2% and only 10k of property taxes, which vanishes after you break a threshold.. so no cap gain loss, rental RE loss (depreciation), interest deduction, state/local taxes paid, charities, work related expenses, certain credits if you work in NY instead of NJ, etc, etc, etc that you can normally deduct on Fed/NY/and most states.

only retards look at the state marginal tax rate and try and compare apples to apples..

Who gives a pile on what is better or worse? There was massive bubble. Unless your job fed into that bubble and or you greatly benefited from it..... No amount of 'holistic' masturbation can financially justify buying into $1000psf or not locking in the profits.

- scientists have done studies that show 99% of penises and vaginas are not regularly used for sex-

- financial advisors have shown the richer you are the less time you spend on your yacht although paradoxically your yacht gets larger the bigger your income!- wtf?

- closet scientists have shown 99% of ladies only wear 5 underwears when they own 35 pairs of thongs!-

Liz how long ago did you buy in manhattan. No need to answer. By your vehemence, I would gather 1999 or so and someone close to you works in re borkering. Carry on. Sit and deflate. Sit and deflate. Just squeeze every $ outa the bubble. Trying to convince everyone in the playground why they should continue to pile on a deleveraging asset while not being truthful about how much you benefitted.

Go on. Do your spiel. Fking hilarious. But let me ask you, where else will you make $1mm in after tax nut when the bubble goes away?

w67th - we purchased in the early 90s and also in 2003. No brokers in the family. Just think the suburbs suck. :)

ab_11218 - I'm not sure why staying in the city would require longer working days than moving to the suburbs, unless you are either an hourly worker or that house in the burbs comes with a new job too. A job is a job, my residence has nothing to do with how much I have to work. No to mention, even if you live in the closest suburb, in a house right next to the train station, you are still adding an hour and a half to your work day minimum (45 min each way), for commuting time. If you move out to Westfield or Summit make that closer to 2 1/2 hrs per day. So your 9 to 6 job means you leave you leave in the morning at 7:30 and get home at 7:30

Outer Boros.

so liz, you are comparing 2003 to today???? hmmmmmmmmmmm

if you were to sell your place today, it would cost you $2K to live in the burbs as you would be able to buy your short hills house for cash. burbs are not for everyone, but raising your children in the burbs, not PA/Deep NJ/Suffolk/etc, is better then in manhattan. they can breath fresh air and be kids.

hol4, you make a good point on NJ taxes, but you cannot take reduce your tax payments in NYS by the 3.85% that you pay additionally for NYC tax. so let's say it's 2.5% benefit to live in NJ. for a small, $250K salary, as it seems this board thinks it's small, the savings are $6K+ then remove the $12K for property taxes and it will cost roughly $500 a month in Fed tax deductible NJ.

given that in NJ/LI/Westchester the kids will be zoned for good schools and will not need special tutoring to pass tests for good schools and you're well over $1K per month in expenditures. god forbid your child does not pass the test and your local, as typically is, has a passing rate of 30%, you are spending $3K per month schooling.... shallow burbs, here you come.

w67, bro - you are extollling the virtues of BUYING anyplace in the tristate area.

If I were starting denovo today, not having owned anything or owning anything.

I would rent in NYC over buying in burbs hands down.

ab--dont be silly. 2k to raise kids in suburbs? Sorry, I cannot even argue with you now as you're clearly delusional. go LIVE IN the suburbs and we can discuss. seriously, how can you even pretend to know what you're talking about? You #s are so off.

we WISH it were so easy/cheap to move to the suburbs...for us it's less $$ and more the commuting time cost. But, overall, seems it's best to remain here if you were compelled to live here initially.

There are more upper-class and upper-middle class families living in the "hip" big cities like New York, Boston, SF, etc, per census stats than there were 10 & especially versus 30 years ago. There have been countless articles citing such stats. But "families" don't = families that make over $150k per year. That is in fact under 10% of "families." In fact, there have ALSO been many stories about more poor and middle class families moving to the suburbs because they cannot afford the big, cool cities.

Jeremy Lin did not grow up in manhattan. Nuff said. Flmaozz.

how disappointed do you think Oma Lin is?
Oma worked in that business 7 days a week 15 hours a day to send little Jeremy to Harvard.
No all he does is chase that stupid ball.

The Lin's were praying for a Doctor.

falcogold1

What are you talking about. Basketball had been his passion and his career goal since high school. His parents were immigrants working in the engineering field here in the US. Why would they need to work 105 hours a week to send him to College. Just pick up any newspaper or read any online article to find out for yourself.

falcogold1, you better step up your game because you are sounding quite desperate like Gilbert Gottfired trying to be funny.

falcogold is the new AFLAC duck.

yo falco... you are alright with me :)

eliza/nyc10023... I'm not here to speak about the merits of living in NYC. The question is:

What is the "true" financial cost of NOT locking in the BUBBLE profits in 2007. Let's not kid ourselves.... status quo with $1MM in cash, renting in the same hood vs. doing nothing....

Raise of hands, HOW MANY PPL wish they had sold in 2007 and rented for the past 5 years?

I would raise my hand.... I am IN A MUCH BETTER FINANCIAL SITUATION THAN HAVING BOUGHT THE $2MM CONDO IN 2006. IF living in NYC IS GOOD, BUYING POST BUBBLE POPPING $500psf/in 2015 =>>>>>>>> MUY GOODER.