Forte Condos...

We went there a few times a couple of months ago. Views are nice (above 16th floor or so) for now. With the BAM area construction, this will change in the coming years. Construction is not great. Was not impressed. They started releasing units for sale back in Spring 2007. As of a month or so ago, there were approx 15 occupied units. Prices have come down since the original spring release. I think they will be flexible with pricing. We were looking at the 2 br units (C, I think).

I have no direct experience w/ the Forte, but the name rang a bell. Curbed linked Brownstoner's report about significant price chops recently.

http://curbed.com/archives/2008/01/28/pricechopper.php

Thanks for the info. ITM, I asked about views potentially being blocked and got the "who knows what will happen" response. Do you know how the BAM area construction will change views and if it's a done deal? Thanks in advance.

Thanks for the info. ITM, I asked about views potentially being blocked and got the "who knows what will happen" response. Do you know how the BAM area construction will change views and if it's a done deal? Thanks in advance.

Search BAM Cultural District. I found some renderings about what it would look like. Basically the parking lots next to Forte would be tall buildings. They're breaking ground in a year or so, then it's going to be a construction nightmare (IMO).

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/15/arts/design/15bam.html

BTW, the Fort Greene historical district was recently moved to include Ashland. So the views towards Fort Greene Park and Brooklyn Tech will be protected.

And (another pro), the BAM building is Frank Gehry designed.

ITM, thanks for all the info. Found this site which might be helpful to others also: http://www.work.ac/ I also read the BAM construction will include low and middle-income housing. Given the uncertainly with the view (unless you stick with a NE view), the questionable construction, the crappy broker and massive construction over the next couple (or more) years...thanks but no thanks.

Agree on all counts. Tons of other developments in downtown Brooklyn.

ITM, do you have any places you'd recommend checking out in downtown Brooklyn? Thanks.

We looked at Forte, BellTel, One Hanson, Oro and a couple of others. The latter 2 were more expensive, if I remember correctly. A friend owns in the Toy building - I like the look and feel of old factories. Really depends on what you're looking for. BellTel is the old Verizon building (14 ft ceilings). One Hanson is the conversion from Williams Bank (the one with the clock on it).

we looked at belltel, forte, hanson and wound up purchasing at Rockwell Place. We liked the finishes, openness, outdoor space, proximity to subways, and that it wasn't a few hundred unit building.

Is that the one you can see from Forte?

yes - Rockwell is the 6 story piano factory that is being converted with a 6 story addition. Entrance will be on Rockwell but sales office is on the flatbush side of the building.

new2fg, looks nice, although the CCs seem quite high. For the 2BRs, ~$1/sq ft. Is that right?

I checked out Rockwell as well. Not bad are the finishes.

CCs are a little on the high side partially because it is a smaller building. But there is an abatement so it helps balance things out a little. And comparing just the price on the 2 bedroom, forte has an 1156 sq ft place listed for 999K and Rockwell has a 1166 sq ft place listed for 870K.

I find the Forte Condo charging too much for their c.c. for so little amenities. Small gym, no swimming pool, no squash courts and sauna. Expect the price to drop further as the sales are not picking up even with the recent price dropped.

I'd much rather live up a few more blocks on Lafayette and be in Fort Greene proper. As far as big condo developments go, it's too bad they didn't build the Toren at this location instead. That seems like a much nicer building.

Squash courts?! Who plays squash in their apartment building?

I like some of the floor plan layouts but I agree that the c.c is way over the top for basically little to no amenities! For those of you who have been following Forte, what are the chances for the prices to drop further? Any insider news? Looks like it's not selling anymore...

In addition to the huge price cuts, they are offering incentives like closing costs/seller's atty fees waiver. I still didn't buy there because, after looking at various new developments, the finish and amenities seem insufficient, especially given the high CC.

I've been looking for over a year now, and I think the 2BR unit I was interested in went down from something like $950k to $650k. I wish them well.

holy bajesus.

Then again, you are talking about a neighborhood with more new inventory than anywhere else, and basically no progress on fixin up the area (Atlantic Yards delayed yet again).

That's 300K down but it's still overpriced. Funny that Toren keeps increasing their prices. Good luck!

My take is, if you can't sell the apartments, might as well raise the prices... so the condos you can't sell are "better". Keeps the old buyers from revolting.

nyc don't understand your logic. One, the Toren has continued to sell and two, increasing prices doesn't make them better and three, Toren buyers are a far from revolting.

Truth be told, I don't understand Toren's recent price increases. The developer has, until recent price increases, handled pricing policy to perfection. The latest amendment, given the recent economic news, doesn't make any sense to anyone who has been reading business news. Are they getting greedy and trying to get every last penny they can squeeze from the project? I hope not.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt since everything has gone so well to date but I agree with cleanslate that the latest round of increases goes against the current economic reality and is perplexing. Hopefully they know something I don't.

Could be a demographic thing with Chinese, approximately 50% of purchasers of Chinese decent, not having the same economic difficulties. I'm stretching with that one but I truly don't understand BFC's logic.

Please. let them know what they are doing,

If you are from Brooklyn and know Brooklyn neighborhoods, you'd never live here.

If you are from Manhattan, you might not know better and be really excited about the prices per square foot.

Listing prices are increasing, but you really can push and get some serious discounts on these.

I want to visit Toren again and ask them how they can rationalize the price increase, but that would not be worthwhile. It's a bit of a turn off because you kinda feel now you're really being duped. Why would the price actually increase from two weeks ago? What kind of sales pitch are you gonna tell me to convince me to buy a unit for more money after the economy just got real worse?

I guess you can probably get away with it with folks who do not know the price actually increased...and that's sad.

Why be surprised about broker claims.

110 livingston made pretty much exactly the same claims for a year.... They claimed "sold out" in the Times, claimed prices were increasing, all that. When a letter got out from the developer that contracts were broken, their sales team quickly said that it was just a marketing pitch, and everything was sold.

Then, turns out they had to rent apartments because they couldn't sell them.

Brokers will tell you whatever they need to tell you to get you to buy (or not break a contract). I'm not sure why these buildings would be any different.

Allright, going back to talking about Forte, can someone help me answer the question I had that I had posted earlier? For those of you who have been following Forte, what are the chances for the prices to drop further? Any insider news? I saw a post saying they are providing incentives towards closing costs and atty fees....is that true? Despeite that, looks like it's not selling anymore. I live not too far away from there and have been to Forte a few times...still no improvement in their inventory.

humber--yes, the prices WILL inevitably drop, as this particular developer does not seem scared of lowering prices. They are smart.

In fact, if you recently toured there, I am sure you have received phone calls from them, offering incentives on the closing costs/seller's attorney fees. They will also tell you NOT to be shy about making just "any offer." This all happened to me, but it doesn't mean you will expderience the same, though...

Ok...so guess what? For those thinking of buying the C line apartments in Forte, watch out for the views to change dramatically (and lack of sunlight soon)! I found the master plan and rendering of a 30 floor building going to be erected right across next year! Check out the following links..you can actually see Forte on the right side of the rendering picture in the article...
http://www.dbpartnership.org/lookingahead/bamcd/phasetwo
I am guessing the developer better drop the prices anticipating a depreciating value...it's overpriced already!!

We had looked into Forte about a year ago. We found out there were building a huge development next door, which was to include 2-3 stories of commercial space (including a movie theater) and government subsidized housing (or what they were calling middle-income housing). And this was at much higher price levels!

ITM - - Thanks, I notice that you have referenced the issue in the posts earlier. I guess my message can be treated as an actual update plus now you can see the rendering becoming reality. So did you end up getting the 2 br C line apartment you were looking for? Have you been there recently?

We ended up buying elsewhere and I don't recall which line we were looking at..it was the one with the curved wall of windows in the living area. I have not been there recently, but one of my colleagues was there maybe 2-3 weeks ago and said only 15 apts were sold/occupied, which is not much more than when we looked (doorman had said 10-12 apts were occupied last winter). He actually offered to buy 4 apartments at a 30% discount and they refused.

Mixed-income housing right next door? THAT they didn't tell me. The area is sketchy enough as it is... It's a good thing I didn't buy. Thanks.

If you want to move to fort greene this isn't the place - you should check out places near the park like the Clermont Greene. Nice finishes, a great courtyard and more space for your money. A little far from the subway, but worth it.

Brownstoner's reporting some price cuts at Forte condos:

www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2009/04/forte_price_cut.php#comments

Consensus of commenters is that they're not deep enough (but they do appear to be lower than some previous sales - I've never looked at the building).

jkb,

you dug 6 months deep to revive this thread.

Actually, no. I just looked up the development itself on Streeteasy, then found the 'discussion' thread at the bottom of the page.

I like real estate and all, but I wouldn't scroll through 2,000+ threads just to dig up this puppy!

More of an FYI to those whose interest might be more than general.

I saw a full page ad from these guys in NY Mag last month. They must be hurting big.

In December I actually made an offer on a unit here for 21% off --- they countered at 3% off, even though my having a broker a 2.5% savings to them to start with. It was like they do not want to sell except at full asking price, even though 2/3rds empty. There was clearly no room for neogtiation; they were just lookin' for a sucker.

Well that was gibberish...I should have said, "even though my NOT having a broker represented a 2.5% savings to them to start with."

Must learn to type.

And every month since they're kicking themselves....

What is going to happen to this place now. They're only 1/3 sold. Markets are not getting better. The only option is to keep lowering prices or just turn the building into a rental. But rent is also coming down - so what options do they have? Anyone?

We looked at it. God it looked shoddy, especially when they are handing you promo material showing high end fixtures and showing you a bathroom straight from a dorm.

can you say rentals...

I am personally wondering why they haven't gone rental yet--but I must say I rather like the bldg., especially the "C" line apartments. The finishes are adequate for the price range, in my opinion.

With this said, I am grateful I didn't buy a couple of years ago when it was 1st offered. Why??? I have noticed a rather abrupt decline in the neighborhood lately...perhaps due to the current recession. A friend lives in that area, and I visit often. I see quite a few mentally-ill individuals loitering in the area, and I now see more homelsss people than I ever did in that immediate area... In fact, a couple of days ago, I saw a horrible-looking woman beating up on another woman, only steps from Forte. On the way to the sales office, I am sure people would notice these things...

Has anyone heard if another price drop will take place at Forte soon?

What's the deal with these apartments? They seem to have stopped doing open houses? Rentals? Auctions? Anyone know?

They still have open houses every weekend. Not sure where you got your info but the open house sign was out last weekend.

Open houses every weekend people... doubt this will go rental, given its location and the fact that theyre getting closer to where it should be for the market. Listen what can you do when the market shifts like it has, chasing it is all you can do really. Thinking about buying one myself now that prices have come lil closer to where they should be (investor in the area) Oh by the way whoever made the mental illness/ homeless person comment you should be ashamed of yourself. Oh sure BAM, Lafayette Ave, Dekalb ave. I always think mental illness and homeless...ridiculous. Its clear that even though you may have friends in the area, you DO NOT know FG at all. DO MORE RESEARCH people...you sir sound more like a competitor doing some bashing...lets please leave this forum for the buyers, not brokers.

We went to see Forte a few months ago. We like the views but are not too sure about the location. Downtown Brooklyn perhaps is an up and coming neigborhood but the square footage pricing is now comparable or even higher than park slope.

With the public housing so close to those buildings, I am not sure when the government is going to vacate those people to bronx. I heard it's 40% vacant now. Not sure if the government is going to continue to do so.

I liked the building and I think the neighborhood has potential, especially if the Atlantic Yards project ever gets off the ground, and most especially if some of the ground-level parking lots on the block can be replaced with some decent retail and restaurants.

But I agree with nara that the price per square foot is still too high. (The difference is I also think Park Slope is due for some more price drops.) The Forte developer is smart to get out ahead of the market as it comes down, and they may get a few sales that way, but they won't get rid of all their units until they get down around $400/sf.

"I liked the building and I think the neighborhood has potential, especially if the Atlantic Yards project ever gets off the ground, "

Neighborhood will see some improvements, but don't also forget the MASSIVE amounts of inventory it will bring. The location of Forte specifically is a litte crapy, tucked in that corner. Might not be in a great competitive position if you want to sell.

And mind you, we're talking years and years, maybe decades. I haven't seen one shovel at the yards yet... and the thing has multiple phases.

But, agreed, psfs need to come way down.

A story in Crain's today says Clarett and its partner have given up on Forte, and are giving the keys back to the lender.

It also says the lender doesn't expect to get more than $350/sf on Forte condos.

-- gg

Goldman Sachs' Brooklyn condo bet sours
By Amanda Fung

Published: August 13, 2009 - 2:22 pm

Forté, a 30-story luxury residential tower in the Brooklyn Academy of Music cultural district in downtown Brooklyn, is underwater.

Manhattan-based developer The Clarett Group confirmed Thursday that, along with its majority partner Goldman Sachs Group Inc., it is negotiating with the project’s construction lender to transfer control to the lender. After two years of marketing, the 108-unit, upscale FXFOWLE Architects-designed building is only 37% sold.

“Clarett is proud to have delivered such a beautiful, high quality property—on time and on budget—to enhance the skyline and contribute to the renaissance of downtown Brooklyn,” the developer said, in a statement. “Unfortunately, the sales market in Brooklyn has not been as strong as Forté itself.”

The number of apartment sales in northwest Brooklyn, which includes downtown and Fort Greene, fell 42.8% during the second quarter from the same time last year, according to the Prudential Douglas Elliman and Miller Samuel industry report.

Clarett Group declined to elaborate on the proceedings. But sources say that lender Eurohypo Bank, Germany’s largest real estate bank, has hired The Witkoff Group as an asset management advisor to explore its options. Eurohypo holds approximately $41 million in debt on the tower. Goldman Sachs is the majority equity investor in the project with a 75% stake. Prudential Real Estate Investors is also an equity partner. PREI and Goldman declined to comment.

Meanwhile, units at Forté remain for sale. Earlier this year, Clarett Group hired Brooklyn-based The Developers Group to take over Forté’s marketing. The developer was previously handling sales in-house.

Attempts to package up units and market them in bulk have gone nowhere, according to sources. It could not be determined which firm was handling the bulk sales, but many noted that there have been no takers, in part because of the building’s location at 230 Ashland Place, between downtown and the leafy residential enclave of Fort Greene Hill.

Previously sold individual units at Forté went for an average $681 per square foot, according to Streeteasy.com. Sources say the few investors active in the market today are unwilling to pay over $350 per square foot.

Clarett Group is recognized for developing a number of luxury residential towers across the city including The Montrose and Chelsea House, both in Manhattan. Recently, the developer topped off downtown Brooklyn’s tallest building, dubbed The Brooklyner, located at 111 Lawrence St. The 51-story tower will offer 491 one- and two-bedroom apartments for rent. Clarett said it expects that building to be open to residents by early next year.

"but many noted that there have been no takers, in part because of the building’s location at 230 Ashland Place, between downtown and the leafy residential enclave of Fort Greene Hill"

Does anyone else think this location is bad compared to Oro, Toren, and 96 Rockwell? I passed on this building because of the shoddy construction and horrible layouts of the convertible 1 beds. I would buy for $450-500psf

I think the location is substantially better than Oro and Toren. Forté is closer to more subway options, closer to the park, further from the Ingersoll Projects, and about the same distance from downtown retail and restaurants.

96 Rockwell is only a block and a half away from Forté. I agree that's a slightly better location but only by a block and a half.

Happens now. Would the bank auction the units out? What psf should they go for?

What happens to the people who are in contract? What happens to their deposits?

I would think they would still have to close at their original price, or else forfeit their deposit. Anyway, the sales people said there were only 2 units in contract. The rest of the buyers have already closed.

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090813/FREE/908139989/1059

Investors were only offering $350 per sq ft.

For bulk purchases. I would expect individuals to pay more than that.

Actually just noticed the tag saying the bulk purchases were inaccurate.

What will Goldman do with the remaining units to sell? Try to undersell Oro and Toren by slashing prices? Go rental? Dump the place to the first investor that comes along? Or sit on it in the theory that in five or ten years it'll prove to be a money-making investment?

My guess is Option B. But it's only a guess. Maybe 30-Years has some insight into how foreclosed condo projects are generally handled?

So it sounds as if Forté never offered bulk packages for sale, but some investors approached them unsolicited with offers to buy bulk packages at a maximum of $350/sf.

If $350/sf was the MOST investors were willing to pay, then the average they were willing to pay must have been well below that. Current Forté asking prices range from $540/sf to $712/sf, depending on the floor. So I would think even an individual purchasing on a lower floor could expect to pay $350/sf or less, if that was a fair price for bulk purchases on the upper floors.

Evnyc, the article says Goldman and the other equityholders are handing the keys to the lender.

I'm a prospective buyer in Bklyn, but I wouldn't pay $350/sf for the Forte location.

I would pay it for a better location, but not for Forte location.

Of course I'm a demanding buyer, I don't care about high end finishes, and won't pay much for that. I pay for fundamentals, which have the most resale value.

Graffiti, can you suggest some better locations in Brooklyn? Forté seems pretty convenient with all the subway stops there - certainly better than Oro and Toren. I know Park Slope and DUMBO have some nice buildings but those areas are more cut off. Do you think you can get $350/sf in Brooklyn Heights?

Ah, sorry, I read fast at work. But fundamentally my question remains the same. What do you think the lender is going to do with the building and/or units?

No, Forte-Viewer, prices for good blocks in the Slope or other better areas have not dropped to $350/sf yet.

However they are coming down. They're still pretty high, but I noticed this deal the other day in Cobble Hill:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/428378-coop-220-congress-street-cobble-hill-brooklyn

The ask is $623/sf, down from $820/sf.

That's a 25% drop in prime Cobble Hill, which people were saying a year ago would never happen.

So....who knows? If you ask me, eventually Brooklyn premium areas will sell at a significant disount to Manhattan, and $350/sf is not an unreasonable expectation in the long run, ie another two or three years.

Maybe not prime Cobble Hill, but the south Slope will get there, good parts of the historic districts in Ft. Greene and Clinton Hill will DEFINITELY get there, Windsor Terrace will get there. Good streets in the real part of Prospect Heights will get there (I'm not talking the border district between PH and Crown Heights, which will go way below $350/sf but you don't want to live there). Maybe the farther parts of Carroll Gardens will get there.

So if you can wait, you'll have a bigger choice of decent, safe, liveable streets to choose from.

Now my preference is old construction, not the new stuff. If what you want is newly built high-rise condos, I can't help you.

But if you need to buy now, I don't know what to tell you. Forte is not to my taste and I think it's not a great area. If you're seriously tempted, just be cautious, take the subway there at 11 pm and see how safe you feel walking from the train to the complex.

Also I'm not sure if the G train goes there but remember the G train is the train to nowhere, it does not go to Manhattan. It only runs between Bklyn and Queens, which is of very limited use to most people.

best, gg

Ev: My prediction is the lender takes its lumps and lowers prices to whatever the market will bear. The other option is converting to rental, but there's so much empty rental supply on the market (and two new rental buildings almost finished right down the block) that I can't imagine they would be able to rent the units for all that much. Selling in bulk to an investor is possible but that investor is going to have to rent out the units as well, at least for a few years, and they're unlikely to make money doing that.

Crains says that Eurohypo holds $41 million in debt. With 37% sold I'm going to guess they have around 70,000 sf left to sell. If they can average $350/sf then after paying broker fees that comes to around $23 million, or around 56 cents on the dollar. Not terrible in today's market of "toxic waste" loans.

GG: Thanks, it helps to understand your point of view. I actually think the area around Forté is not bad and could get a lot better with a little more retail. Surely some more retail will show up if the building fills up money-spending yuppies and if the 1F restaurant is decent. North of LIU I find a little sketchy, but why would I go there?

Yes, the G is one of 9 trains stopping within a 3-block radius. If I were living in Forté I would probably walk 3 blocks to get the B or Q, which is fine with me. Park Slope, for all its charm, is 3 stops farther away from Manhattan and doesn't have as many subway lines reaching it.

Forte_Viewer,

GraffitiGrammarian is a renter. In Inwood.

He/she isn't an expert on Brooklyn, future housing prices, or even common sense by any stretch of the imagination.

In fact, I'd say quite the opposite.

Thanks for your input, East88, though really ad hominem attacks are unnecessary. I'm sure no one on this discussion board is an expert, though in these tough times of a deflating real estate bubble we consumers have to develop our own expertice as best as we can.

GG: I used to rent in Inwood, years ago. It was nice though inconvenient, and it was frustrating to me that it lacked many of the accoutrements of modern yuppie convenience (like Starbucks, smoothie parlors, sushi and Whole Foods). Hopefully it's better now.

GG's been following the Brooklyn market in depth for some time. I find her posts informative and helpful, and constructive. although i think she is a bit optimistic regarding eventual prices in some of the better neighborhoods, but that's just an opinion :).

Forte_Viewer, I agree. Looked semi-seriously at Oro just before the crash, post-crash sidelined. Transportation is a big factor to me and makes Park Slope somewhat less appealing.

I've been rather astounded at the general resilience of prime Brooklyn neighborhoods, so it'll be interesting to see what effect (if any) the Forte foreclosure has on the surrounding area.

Gee I guess if I'm a renter, I have nothing valid to say about property values.

I'm not an expert on Bklyn, but I lived there for 9 years, in the 1990s. I was in Cobble Hill, and got to know much of surrounding brownstone Brklyn thru friends, etc.

I still visit pretty often.

I understand your take, Forte_Viewer. It's not the worst location around Forte, and you may be right that the area will improve a bit.

There are people who know the Ft. Greene area better than me. Maybe earlier in this thread there were some comments. When I lived in Brooklyn, Ft. Greene was still largely unexplored territory for outsiders -- it was mostly folks who grew up there who were living there.

The areas I know best are Bklyn Heights, Cobble Hill/Carroll Gardens, Red Hook, Boerum Hill, the Slope and environs, down to Windsor Terrace.

Ft. Greene is a very quick commute to the city if you're on the right block, and anything close to BAM could be good, although to tell the truth, BAM tickets are pricey for good seats, and most of the time I'd rather spend my money at Lincoln Center.

Inwood is slowly gentrifying, not too many amenities yet but there are a slew of new restaurants on 200th St.....

best, gg

200th would have been a little far. I lived way up on 212th!

212th....you know it's nice up there. Park Terrace? Indian Hill Road? There are some very pretty streets around there.

I wouldn't buy up there, though. It's just too far. I have a big, pretty apt right now, good for entertaining, but most of my friends, including the bklyn folks, just can't come up very often. The round trip takes too long.

However, I'll say this: after 9 years of living in brownstone Bklyn, with all its charms, I do like being in Manhattan, even if it is all the way at the tip of Manhattan. I'm an arts type, I take dance classes and go to shows, and living in Manhattan makes that much easier.

I see a lot more living in Inwood than I did when I lived in Bklyn.

I'll also add -- I think it's a badge of honor that I didn't overpay for real estate during the bubble, kept my wits about me and stayed a renter. Of course some people made lots of money by timing the market right, but many more people who bought are going to get hammered by the deflating bubble.

I'd rather say I'm a renter, and thus avoided getting caught in the bubble trap, than be a buyer who got suckered in at the top of the cycle.

My guess is that you were pretty far out into Brooklyn. At least Park Slope, maybe Bay Ridge. Because when I was in Inwood I found it very inconvenient to do much of anything in the City. It was a 45-minute commute to work in Midtown, and even dance classes at Columbus Circle took a good half hour to get to.

It seems to me you can get to 80% of Manhattan from Forté faster than from Inwood. The exceptions would be Washington Heights, Harlem, and Columbus Circle, and maybe parts of Hell's Kitchen and a few Broadway theatres would be equal.

Oh, and no, I subleased an apartment in the coop on 212th and Broadway. So not those pretty streets on the other side of the park.

Should we expect EuroHypo to drop the unit price more?

I hope so, but who knows what they are thinking? They either cut prices or rent the units, or sell in bulk at a discount to someone who will cut prices and/or rent the units.

For what it's worth, I don't see how anyone will make much money renting the units, with so much other rental supply on the market, and 2 more rental towers in the neighborhood almost finished. So my bet is they cut prices, although that may just be wishful thinking on my part.

Forte Viewer, I was in Cobble Hill, but the point you make about commuting times to midtown from bklyn versus commuting times from Inwood.....

I don't know, I think they are about the same, to tell you the truth.

Of course it depends which train you are on, I am close to the A which thank goodness is an express. If you were relying on the 1 train that could add half an hour to cover the same stetch of turf.

But also there is the psychologial factor of going into a different borough. It sounds silly, but it was real when I lived in Bklyn, there was just a sense that getting to Bklyn was something of a slog, after work you just wanted to do it and be done with it.

Whereas in Inwood, it seems an easier trip, from Columbus Circle you just hop on the A and go straight home. That ride is really only about 25 minutes of train time, more of course to include the walking-to-the-train part of the trip.

So I guess the train ride portions are the same, whether from Bklyn or from Inwood. But Bklyn is just "a different state of mind" I suppose.

Graffiti,
In one of your previous posts, you hint that the area around Forte is unsafe at night. Is that based on first hand experience or you are just guessing?
Thanks

I'll be very interested in GG's response, but in the meantime, here's my take: The immediate block or two around Forté on Fulton Street does seem to be a little underserviced in terms of retail, offices, etc. You don't get a lot of "eyes on the street", so to speak, particularly on nights when nothing is going on at the BAM theatre.

The main issue, in my opinion, is caused by the 3 ground-level parking lots, one directly across the street from Forté and the other two each within a block on Fulton Street. Obviously it's unlikely that someone would be looking out from a parking lot to watch out for neighbors or witness a crime, so I can imagine a person walking down those blocks at night might feel lonely and exposed.

The good news is that I think the restaurant moving into Forté's first floor will improve things, and the north side of Fulton does have a moderate amount of activity, and anyway Forté's location is not as lonely and exposed as the locations of Oro and Toren farther North in Downtown Brooklyn.

You can see a lot of this via the Google Maps street view, by the way, so don't take my word or GG's word for it.

Also, I think it would be simple enough for the owners of those parking lots to build two or three levels of retail and move the parking to the roof. And once Forté and 96 Rockwell fill up with money-spending yuppies, why wouldn't those owners build something like this post-haste? On the other hand, one of those 3 parking lots seems to be earmarked for development as part of the "BAM Cultural District", which is likely to be caught up in red tape and funding cuts for years.

In a nutshell, I wouldn't call Forté's block unsafe, but I'd agree it could be more vibrant and secure. I also think it has a lot of upside, though unfortunately that upside may not be realized for some years.

I never heard anyone say 1 Hanson is a bad location its only 1 block down the street.

If the Atlantic Yards and BAM Cultural District developments drag on unfinished for long enough you may hear someone say it.

Viewer, what's this about a restaurant moving into Forte's first floor? Is that confirmed? What kind of restaurant?

The sales people say that the plan is to put an Asian fusion restaurant there, which will be operated by a family that owns seven other businesses (including a sushi restaurant and a number of delis) elsewhere in Brooklyn. I got the impression that a lease has not been signed yet, but if negotiations are far enough along that they are sharing the info with potential buyers at the open house then they must be pretty confident.

That's all I know.

Is it the same family that owns One Greene (which is a not so great sushi place) and the various Korean delis on Fulton and Greene?

I didn't ask - I don't know those places anyway so it would have meant nothing to me. You could try asking them in the sales office, I guess . . .

I don't have firsthand knowledge tobytoby....I have walked down Fulton Street at night alone, on the way to meeting people at BAM, and Forte-Viewer is right, it seems pretty lonely at night.

But the specific blocks right around Forte, I don't know.

Forte-Viewer seems to have pretty sensible views, but may be a bit more optimtic than I am about the continued gentrification of these "margin" areas.

I don't think people are going to spend money to live in iffy areas ....not for several years. People are waiting for signs of the market to bottom out so they can spend their money to live in established areas, Park Slope, Brooklyn Heights, Carroll Gardens...even "second tier" established areas like Windsor Terrace or Prospect Heights.

I think the edge of Ft. Greene is more a third-tier area.

Nobody wants to be in a "pioneer" in a down market. Too much risk, not enough return, IMHO.

Your view's understandable, GG.

However I think that, no matter the economic times, there will always be some people like me, who value convenience. Your description of living in Cobble Hill and feeling detached from the City makes it clear to me that I could never live in one of the neighborhoods you describe. I'd rather not have my morning commute too dependent on a single train line (as it would be with the F in Cobble Hill or the R in most of Park Slope), and I'd rather not have limited subway options determine whom I get to see and what I get to do when I visit Manhattan.

Even in Inwood, as you've pointed out, we at least had the 1 or the A to choose from. Still it was a schlep going anywhere South of Columbus Circle. By the way, I ran some public transit directions requests on Google Maps, comparing my old address in Inwood versus Forté's address to get to various locations. As I expected, Forté beat Inwood to everywhere South of Columbus Circle, as well as most places on the East side. Even Lincoln Center was a very close call (with Inwood winning by only 2 minutes). I'm sure your old Cobble Hill address would not do as well.

Downtown Brooklyn is obviously a lot more convenient than the other Brooklyn neighborhoods you mention, and the block around Forté is not that bad, and could be vastly improved by modest and realistic improvements like replacing the parking lots with retail, even fairly low-end retail. All-out gentrification with spas and sidewalk brunches would not be necessary.

The prices at the condos in that area are still too high, but at $350/sf or less I think Forté would be a pretty good bet.

"If the Atlantic Yards and BAM Cultural District developments drag on unfinished for long enough you may hear someone say it. "

Agreed. And it is pretty darn dumpy right now. The world's most ghetto mall next to the crappiest LIRR station of them all.

I agree Fort Greene is way too fringe to try in a down market. Renting is one thing but to buy in this area would be dumb

Good analysis, Forte_Viewer. You have considered all the angles and figured out which are most important to you.

Good luck. Just a thought -- you should actually time the commute yourself before you buy, since the commute is part of what is swaying you in favor of Forte. Spend a Saturday morning going over there, walk from the door of the building to the train you would use most of the time, then ride to midtown and time the process.

I'm sure Ft. Greene is faster to midtown than Cobble Hill is, as you say. But there is no substitute for trying it out yourself. Some stations on the local lines don't let you crossover to travel in the opposite direction, which is worth knowing. Some stations only get service during rush hour, and many stations are in the middle of construction projects.

As for me, I will wait awhile longer, and probably will choose a longer commute to someplace like the Slope in exchange for a more established nabe.

Yes, well, "swaying me in favor" is a relative term, I guess. Forté hasn't come down to what I would consider reasonable prices yet. We'll see what the lender does when it takes over . . .

Forte viewer below 350 would be a good deal. However there has been an uptick in violence in Fort Greene that you have t take into consideration. A Pratt student just got knocked into a coma with a crobar in the middle of the street for his wallet.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/08242009/news/regionalnews/city_dealing_to_make_luxe_condos_cheaper_186159.htm