building at 116 East 68th Street

Hard to believe that 6B is trying to flip the 2009 purchase for a million dollar profit without doing a thing to the apartment. Just wait - it will go down (way down) in price.

ph41: What do you think the clearing price should be for these two apartments?

I couldn't really say, but 2B couldn't sell in 2009 for $1,750,000, so they tried to sell in last year for $2,750,000, and couldn't do that either.

Seems to be the same strategy for 6B.

Obviously in that building the maintenance and % down are the impediments to sale. But just take a look at that PH - it's to die for (as is the price and the maintenance).

BTW - the terrace on 9C is nice but is smack up against another building, which isn't that pleasant. I don't think it's really larger than 6B and the maintenance differential because of the terrace is enormous.

Sure the PH is nice, but who wants to have to go through a bedroom to get to their wine room. Would be a deal killer for me.

>jh , well, the wine would be delivered via the service elevator, so only the master and/or mistress of the house would have to go through the bedroom - LOL!!

I took a look at the floor plans of 6B and 9C. Pretty clear that 9C is materially larger. I'd say on the order of 20% before counting the terrace and extra maid's room on the first floor.

ph41: Have you seen the terrace? Even without a view, it looks to be 10x40 along the wide side. Pretty sweet for cocktails, etc.

Given the crazy high maintenance, what do you think the "right" price should be? Does $2.5mm make sense? That's pretty low for a Classic 8 with a terrace and extra maid's room.

>bob - I'm not really seeing that 9C is larger - both have the 3 bedrooms,4 baths, dining room,laundry room, 2 maids. And it's unusual that both are listed, by the brokers, at the same square footage (if 9C were larger, at all, I would think the broker would have pumped it). And the maid's room mentioned in 9C comes with an ADDITIONAL monthly maintenance of $345. So, I guess if it has a bath, you could use it as a guestroom/office, if you really needed one.

Re: the terrace, it's not really the lack of a view, it's having people staring at you from <5 feet away. Don't think that would be particularly pleasant. Notice where those potted plants are? They're screening the windows in the rooms on the terrace (particularly important for the bathrooms LOL).

Sorry, "it's having people staring at you from <5 feet away. And notice the potted plants on the terrace? They're screening the windows in the rooms on the terrace.

Once more - it's having people staring at you from <5 feet away. The potted plants are screening the windows in the rooms on the terrace.

Ph41: if you just add up the square footages of each room, the difference is about 20%. In addition, it's clear from the floor plans that 9c has a lot of additional hallway space than 6b. The two brokers are both from Corcoran, so maybe there is an implied truce about such things.

I don't see any other prewars on the UES with a terrace of that magnitude in anywhere near that price range. The scarcity of it should contribute to the value as well.

Have to go with ph41 on this. This admittedly rare bird is a bit of a dog for the $$$.
If the budget say's 3MM and you're comfortable with that heafty carry any 1month SE user should be able to guide you to a far more enjoyable home.

get a clue bob, everyone is telling you the apartment is wayyy over priced, probably would able to fetch any where close to the 09' offer

>bob- you're also paying for the elevator shafts

bob is a boob... a pendulous banana shaped boob... with a saggy nipple....

COME ON! ... A broker trying to drum up business....

WHOEVER PAYS 2007-2009 prices... seriously that's so pre-Michael Jackson dying....

BUt I agree w/ falco...

hmm, w67 and ph41, hmmmmm.
FLMAOZ

Falcon:

I accept your offer. Please show me the classic 8 on the UES (not Carnegie Hill) you'd prefer to 9c. Assume I would prefer to renovate to my own specs vs. paying for someone else's tastes.

Also, at what price does a very large Cl8 with a large terrace and separate maid's room with an admittedly very high maintenance cease to be a dog?

I did a search for 8+ rooms, pre-war, min 3 bedrooms and 3 baths on the UES or Lenox Hill, up to $5mm.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sales/nyc/status:open%7Ctype:P1%7Cprice:-5000000%7Carea:141,140%7Crooms%3E=8%7Cbeds%3E=3%7Cbaths%3E=3%7Cpre_war:yes?page=1&sort_by=price_desc

Generated 17 results. Median price was $3.9mm, median size was 2500sf. Cheapest was 116 east 68, 9c.

To be clear, I am NOT trying to ignore the maintenance. Just questioning the supposed plethora of better apartments given the parameters I've enumerated.

I do understand the appeal of the lower maintenance versus the higher price of other apartments. Often the economics of higher maintenance/lower price vs. higher price/lower maintenance can make sense economically. But, in this case, where the building allows financing of only 30%, it may be hard to make those calculations work.

However, that being said, if you think this is your "lifetime" apartment, and that the only people who might have to sell would be your heirs, then do what you obviously want to do and go for it.

Do the renovations the apartment requires ($500K-$$$$), just leave those gorgeous floors alone (except to refinish).

ph41: A reasonable response.

Given Board requirement re: liquid assets, it may simply be the case that one can get into a $2.5-$3.0mm apartment but not a $4.0mm apartment, irrespective of how maintenance may "correct" for the price discrepancy.

No way am I changing the floors. They are gorgeous and will take a spectacular refinish. Unfortunately, a $500K reno for this apartment is a pipedream. More like double that.

ps: still waiting to be shown the so-called "far more enjoyable home" with a $3MM budget.

Sounding more like a seller than a buyer. Suc it up take your loss, move on or pay your exorbitant carry

Nope. A buyer.

The building requirements are very tough. We were told that if you paid cash for 9c at the ask the brd would want to see 10-12 mil liquid after.

fwiw, I do not like the location of this bld. imo, it'd be like living on the Hunter College campus & add to that the 68th st subway station. Chaotic. Also, 9C's mntc is ridiculous & could easily hit $11k in no time. Also agree re: terraces: there's no privacy. These are probly some of the reasons why the "Cheapest was 116 east 68, 9c." I think the tip off that this apt is a bit of a dog is that it's $3mm w/ $8+ mntnc. I bet the sellers are sweating to off load this place. However, the apt layout & the bld itself look very nice.

"We were told that if you paid cash for 9c at the ask the brd would want to see 10-12 mil liquid after."
Very fancy shmancy.

This building makes me think of the gorgeous prewar apts on the Grand Concourse in the Bronx. Sure, the apts & blds are (were) gorgeous, but they're in the Bronx & ya can't change that. Likewise, 9C's seller can keep dropping the asking price, but ain't nuthin ya can do about the $8+ mntnc nor the Campus/subway location.

There's a really big difference between the Grand Concourse and 68 between park and lex; and while I agree that proximity to Hunter and the subway is an issue, living in Carnegie Hill has it's drawbacks as well - 68st is a lot closer to most of the things a new yorker wants to be near.

The maintenance is higher in general in the building and they really jammed 9c with a lot of extra shares, presumably for the terrace. If the maintenance is $4,000/month higher than the average classic 8, and assuming that you use a cap rate of 4%, the implied adjustment is $1.2mm. If the median apartment (per my search above is $3.9mm), then the "right" ask for 9c is $2.7mm. Does this make sense?

And anyone who thinks interest rates are going to stay where they are is insane. When they go back up to 6%, you can go buy a bond that pays $48k/year for $800k to defease the extra maintenance.

What is the right ask post the greatest re bubble popping? If you knew, you'd be buy this palace. Why advertise a stalking horse bid? Hilarious.

$300k delta on a $3mm unit with $11k carry and $10mm liquid post closing..... What's that like 20 burkin bags for the potential buyer?

Where have all the buyers GONE?

Listing 20 aspirational c9 on ues and bidding against oneself..... Fking hilarious.

Guy walks into a porsche dealer. Sees 2012 $170k 997tts. The salesman says that's too expensive. Here is a nice Pre owned 2009 997 tts for $150k!

The moro thanks the car salesman profusely and drives home happy with an overpaid 4 year old 997 tt that should have been priced at $90k.

"What is the right ask post the greatest re bubble popping? If you knew, you'd be buy this palace"

Ignoring your sarcasm, that is indeed the question. Look, if this were early 2007, they'd ask 4+mm and get it. They are now asking 3mm. That's also too high. No one seems to be willing to swag the right price for today's market. If you could buy it for $1mm, I assume most would say that's a no brainer. So somewhere between 1 and 3 is what it should go for. Well, what exactly is that "somewhere"?

It takes many nails to build a crib, but one screw to fill it.

"If the median apartment (per my search above is $3.9mm), then the "right" ask for 9c is $2.7mm. Does this make sense? "

here's the prob: since the current apt market is a slowly deflating bubble, all the comps are bubbly, Capisce? So, as you search this slowly deflating bubble market, please understand that many, if not all, other apts are also slowly deflating bubbles.

For me, the ask of $3mm & the $8.3k mntnc tells me that sellers are dying to get rid of this place. Imo, the worst thing about this deal is the mntc & it will only go up & ain't nuthin' you can really do to stop that.

"they really jammed 9c with a lot of extra shares"
well, that's not good & you can't change that

"$300k delta on a $3mm unit". Yeah, a $300k delta. And yeah, W67th's porsche analogy really applies here.

"So somewhere between 1 and 3 is what it should go for. Well, what exactly is that "somewhere"?"

Hard to say what the "right" price is for this place because imo, the mntc is a timebomb. IMO, it's very possible that mntc could hit $11k w/in 3 to 5 years and $15k w/in 10 years.

Flmaozzzz. You are the buyer. You wanna score as many points against the other team. So I'd go with $1mm. But a $3mm. The other team is very happy as their handicap was $3mm.

Dwell:

I guess if you believe it's a deflating bubble, you wouldnt want to buy anything today as you think it will cost less tomorrow. Is there strong evidence that there is still price deflation? Clearly there was a very sharp adjustment from 2007 to 2009/10. But since then?

I am trying to create an "apples to apples" comparison on ASKING prices - ie the $3.9 to $2.7 swag.

Obviously, they are dying to get rid of it. In fact, they've already died - it's an estate sale.

The maintenance will go up, as will all other maintenances in every building in the city.

Still, no one has a point of view on what it should trade for? Odd.

Clearly there was a very sharp adjustment from 2007 to 2009/10. But since then?

yes adjust that to 2012'

Prices clearly still coming down, especially on the east side.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/5465-chasing-the-market-down-our-favorite-price-choppers?page=2

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/5465-chasing-the-market-down-our-favorite-price-choppers?page=17

"Is there strong evidence that there is still price deflation?"

um, oh my! Bob, please be very careful if you truly intend to purchase now. I suggest you become a member here ($5 per mo) so you can look at the price histories of apts. I'm not saying there are no bargains out there, but am sayin that at $2.9, this ain't one of 'em.

Bob, do you not understand how incredibly inflated prices were from 2005 until Lehman? Sure, Manhattan has fared better than the rest of the country, but, YES, Manhattan apt prices are starting to deflate. That's why there such little inventory: sellers have been in big denial re: deflation so they've refused to put their apts on the market &/or have refused buyer's offers, but some Ss are starting to face the truth.

"it's an estate sale" Like I said, sellers can't wait to dump this place. But, that doesn't mean that there ain't some desperate or naive patsy out there who will overpay for this "classic 8".

So, are you cool with paying $2.7mm now & $11k w/in 3-5 yrs, approaching $15k w/in 10 yrs? As mntnc climbs, how will that effect the market value of the apt?

People chopping their asking prices on the same property is not how you demonstrate a further adjustment from 2009/10 to the present. All those chops show is that sellers were asking too much (what else is new?).

Evidence of further adjustment is based on the same or comparable properties trading for less now than they did 2 to 3 years ago.

bob, you seem to know the answers. best of luck to you.

In fact, you have examples of people thinking that they took advantage of a market over-correction in 2009 and trying to flip the same units for a profit today - which is what 6b is trying to do. I doubt he succeeds in any meaningful way, but he's got plenty of room to negotiate given that he bought It for $2.4 in 2009.

I am trying to create an "apples to apples" comparison on ASKING prices - ie the $3.9 to $2.7 swag

How can you do this if according to you, "sellers were asking too much (what else is new?)."

if you take a look at the chops you will notice that there are plenty of examples of properties trading below 09' prices.

Again, you sound more like a seller that a buyer if you are a buyer, pay the asked on 9c since you think it is cheap. As dwell says " you seem to have all the answers.

Can I have your number? A friend of mine has some really cheap properties in Florida i'd like to refer you to

Brooks: Is there a reason you are being so obnoxious? I am trying to equilibrate asking prices. I fully recognize that those asks are too much. The two points I made are not incompatible. I assume that if you reflect on this you will understand.

Dwell: I wish I knew the answers. Then I wouldn't be asking so many questions that no one has the conviction to answer. That said, I will become a member to get the historical data.

Maybe caonima can show up now.

"Then I wouldn't be asking so many questions that no one has the conviction to answer."

we gave you answers, you just don't like the answers & chose not to hear them.
Bob, you're asking for people on a public forum to pinpoint your offering price. If that's what you want, you should really pay a professional to do so, like a RE atty or your accountant. If you can afford to pay millions for an apt, then you can afford to pay professionals to do this work.

"I am trying to equilibrate asking prices."

ask you can glean from the price choppers thread. Using asking prices is useless.

If making a point is being obnoxious, that is fine. But, someone that, from what I can tell, seems to be respected on this post and has a website of RE data. says, "sometimes the asked is just an asked" .
so good luck trying to "equilibrate" arbitrary data.

This is a very nice building. Well run, lovely garden, nice traditional apartments. I don't think any comments have touched on the fact that the building is well regarded on the Upper East Side.

However, in order to buy 9c, a purchaser will have to:

Have more than $10 million in liquid assets
Be interested and willing to due a gut renovation, that will probably take more than a year from time of purchase to completion based on board requirements and likely cost close to $1 million
Not be phased by the high cost of living in a full service, well run established co-op
Be willing to live near Hunter College and the busy subway station in exchange for living just off Park Avenue in the upper 60s
Be on the less desirable north side of the building (the south side overlooks the lower armory rather than Hunter)
Not mind that the terraces are only accessible from bedrooms (if you use the north corner paneled room as a library as shown in the photos it really becomes a one bedroom apartment with a guest room off the entrance hall)

The pool as you can see is getting smaller and smaller... But the price is most likely not going to plummet too much more as it already reflects the limitations mentioned above. My guess is the purchase price is not what is turning away buyers - it is more likely the condition of the apartment, the layout restructions based on the position of the elevators and fire stairs, and the requirements of the strict board. It will sell in the $2s, which really means over $3 + 1 year (another $100,000 in maintenance before moving in)

PS what about the obvious staging in just the living room and the bedroom?

I noticed that there are windows just above the toilets in two of the bathrooms, right out to the terrace. Does columbiacounty want to opine on that?

and maybe J hones will show up too

6B already has its through-wall AC done, and looks to be in better shape overall. Especially the windows, which're a big selling point in that building and expensive/messy to fix.

9C's terrace is hemmed in on the west by 655 Park's top floor, and on the north by Hunter. That terrace becomes the staging point for facade work every few years, as is happening now.

The building has a $4,000,000 mortgage. If you calculate 6B's share of that versus 9C's, I'd bet the $500K difference in offering price will be effectively smaller.

It'd be interesting to see the share-allocation pages from the 1947 offering plan. The four 9th-floor apartments with their terraces seem to be over-weighted, while the two penthouses are underweighted.

Brooks: This is what said: "Can I have your number? A friend of mine has some really cheap properties in Florida i'd like to refer you to". I will let others decide if that counts as obnoxious.

Target: thank you for the constructive comments. Sounds like you think it trades in the upper 2s.

NWT: I agree the 9th floor apartments got overweighted.

>I will let others decide if that counts as obnoxious.

I just googled "caonima". Interesting.

why

Why did I google "caonima"?

Or why is "caonima" interesting?

Google it yourself columbiacounty.

why

Well, I can't compel you to google something. So if you don't want to, don't.

sad

Well, I do think your lack of curiosity is sad. But I wasn't going to say anything.

why

Because there's no need for me to point out a flaw of yours each time I see one.

really.

really.

why

$5 a month!
Someone is paying $5 a month for SE?
Is this true?

falco,
sorry, $10.89 a month.

Bob - we all give up. Just buy the damned apartment. And two years from now let us know how it turned out.

NWT - can we assume the original sponsor lived in one of the penthouses? Would probably account for the unbalanced share allocation.

Ph- ok; will do.

"Target: thank you for the constructive comments. Sounds like you think it trades in the upper 2s."

Why would a real buyer try to justify the full offer price. If you are a Russian Billionaire, pay the full offer and move on.

Brooks: I was trying to make sure I was understanding Target's comment accurately. I am not trying to justify any price, per se.

Dwell: As you suggested, I became a paying member. Very informative. I did a screen for UES Pre-War Co-ops. I then pulled the pure Classic 8s. There have been 17 recorded sales since January 2011. During that period there is no obvious pricing erosion. And with only 17 data points, making inferences would be difficult anyways.

Median Sale price during that period? $3.75mm; Median Maintenance: $4,500/month.

9c will need to trade for at least a million less to justify the higher maintenance.

I think you are trying to compare apples with oranges. Not all UES apartments or buildings are equal, so the idea of choosing the median as the benchmark for this apartment is flawed as this building and specific apartment are inherently "nicer" than many of the other lower end comps. The price difference is because of the maintenance, as we have all noted. At this price (high 2s) the apartment is fairly priced for a rambling three bedroom with terrace in a nice building with a lovely garden off Park. Regardless of the final selling point, I doubt the board will take a purchaser who is any less qualified than if they were paying the original $4m asking price.

The board is okay with a cheap rich guy.........

The more you have in the bank the less you should offer......

Iz that the golden rule?

Good points, Target.

"There have been 17 recorded sales since January 2011."
I don't understand why you're using Jan 2011 as a benchmark. If you want a benchmark date, use a pre-bubble year, like 2003/04.

Came across this:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/610428-coop-150-east-69th-street-lenox-hill-new-york

No, it's not a classic pre-war, but it's a block away (and off the Hunter Campus), has a balcony, the sft seems equivalent, the layout is better, price is similar & mntc is $3,182.

Not to be rude, but Imperial House is a textbook example of why Milan House is a better building. Imperial house may be well run, etc. .... But at the end of the day it is east of Lex, post war, horizontal windows, vast number of apartments down long hallways and none of the appeal of the other building. So even comparing them is flawed, because the likely purchaser of 116 East 68th would never consider living in Imperial House.

The other low "comps" cited are combination apartments or other postwar or east of Lex buildings further north. Sometimes I think people get too caught up in trying to find equivalents. Imperial House and Milan House, while two blocks apart, have nothing in common other than unfortunate names.

Not to be rude but it's a long term cash flow situation. I wonder what happens when interest rate is at 5% versus 0%. What is probability of nyc reflating to 2007 peak? What is prob of interest going up versus down?

Meh, I'd rather be $4mm in cash when Bernie starts paying me 4%. I know you can do IT. Just think past masturbating on a ph balcony.

I wonder what happens to LT bonds when st is at 4%. Oh if I just had a brain.

I'm not a fan of Imperial House & it's a totally different animal than 116 e 68, but it's 2 blocks away & usable space looks equivalent. By comparing the 2, one can see what the "must haves" are: location, pre-war, space, price, whatever.
fwiw, I don't completely agree with the "east of Lex" thing. 150 E 73rd & 142 E. 71st are lovely pre-wars & I don't think being on the "wrong" side of Lex really hurts them.
Where is Milan House?

scusami, forgot 116 East 68th is named Milan House.

Agreed there are several nice buildings east of Lex - 160 East 72nd and 131 East 66th are both excellent buildings.

In terms of maintenance, it is important to realize that the majority of the money goes to building staff salaries. It is not just a phantom cost every month. So a smaller building with a larger staff will always have higher maintenance than a vast building, or one that operates with less personnel. Milan house has a large staff, a garden to maintain, etc. The residents are accustomed to that level of service, and probably are very fond of the building staff and have a long standing rapport with them. Most of them also probably employ a full time housekeeper, etc. - so the "extra" maintenance is the equivalent per year of another full time person (gardener in the country, nanny, etc.)

Are those maintenance costs likely to keep rising? Yes. But aside from residents who have been there for more than twenty years, people know going in that they will be paying for the large staff, as it is necessary to run the building they way they like to have it run.

9C has now been on the market for over two years and has held firm on price. Echoing what Target said previously, this apartment would require a very specific type of buyer. But it seems that the sellers are content to continue to pay the hefty maintenance on this apartment instead of lowering the price.

Even so, I wonder if there isn't some other "fatal flaw" in this apartment that's not apparent in the listing that goes beyond the issues that Target and others identified.

Any more estimates about where this will ultimately trade now that the market has turned? Should the buyers drop the price?

Separately, I think that in terms of comps it's important to look at buildings with similar requirements and service levels. One of the few recent comparable transactions (Classic Nine but ex. terrace, with better views and better location) that I found was: 510 Park Avenue, #11B http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/581399-coop-510-park-avenue-lenox-hill-new-york

"Even so, I wonder if there isn't some other "fatal flaw" in this apartment that's not apparent in the listing that goes beyond the issues that Target and others identified."

It's on East 68th Street.

#9C sold last September for $2,102,500: http://a836-acris.nyc.gov/DS/DocumentSearch/DocumentDetail?doc_id=2012092300003001

Don't know why it's not showing on SE, but ACRIS and SE sometimes get confused with multi-address co-ops.

NWT: Thanks for that. $2.1 was much lower than I was expecting--I would have guessed closer to $2.5, but given the strict puchaser requirements, I'm sure that they had some leverage.

But the next question is why it's back on the market 8 months later for the same price?