Kitchen renovation

I just renovated my kitchen last year and spent about 10K getting new appliances and granite countertops. I didn't have enough money to replace cabinets or floors, but added new hardware to the cabinets and it made a big difference. Since you don't mention countertops, I guess they are in good shape? If so, I would reface the cabinets vs redoing the floor since people notice cabinets more. I just sold my apartment and I believe renovating the kitchen was a great investment.

Thanks.
No, my countertops suck. The plan was to replace that with granite and then reface (not replace) the cabinets. Unfortunately, I just had the appliances installed yesterday and when they were removing the old ones I noticed that the support for the old countertops was actually wood which was literally rotting at the bottom near the floor. Good times. So, I may need to rip them out. Debating it.

No doubt it's a great investment but I'd like to do it for around $10k - $15k.

Here's the thing. If you are just remodeling to sell, think twice about a low-end remodel job. I've been looking for a place to buy for a while. I've seen a couple of places with 'spruced up kitchens' that were Home Depot specials--you know, ho-hum suburbia, kinda cheap feeling, some finishes not very sophisticated or urban or particularly nice. In these places I'm left with two choices if I like the apartment: move in and live with a kitchen I really don't like or tear out the kitchen and remodel myself to my own liking. But either way, the owner is pricing the apartment so as to recover the cost of the crappy kitchen that I didn't want to begin with. In no case did a low end remodel make me like the apartment more or move me toward making a bid. I'd have preferred a slightly lower offer price with the old kitchen. Many buyers feel the same.

Interesting. thanks for the viewpoint kylewest. My only issue with the full reno is the "doing it while living there factor". I tend to agree with you. I bought this current apartment with a very unimpressive kitchen figuring that I would gut it and bid for it accordingly.

I guess it depends. I don't think that my 1BR condo in a full service building would be a direct comp for a buyer with a brand new 1BR in one of the new condos with Viking, sub-zero, and marble finishes. I tend to think (hope) the new stainless appliances I bought (GE and GE Profile) along with new granite countertops with modern cabinet finishes would do the trick. We'll see I guess.

You'll also get a year (at least) of use out of the kitchen which has a value in itself. I only offer my comments to the extent you are considering sinking much more money into the project--it may be better not to. When I recently sold, one broker suggested I redo the bath and kitchen first with Home Depot/Ikea type stuff since they were really beaten to hell. The broker I ultimately signed with convinced me it wasn't worth the headache and expense and we would just discount that in the offer price. What I'd have made by going through all the hassle just wasn't worth it to me.

Maybe you should look at comps in your building, if there are any, and see what conditions the kitchens are in and look at time on market, etc, to see if it's worth it. I've been looking around at pre-war 1 br coops and it seems like the ones with updated kitchens/baths are moving quicker, although I can't say if they recouped the reno investments.

Kylewest makes some good points, but I don't agree that a low-end reno can't look high-end. I've seen some kitchens that looked very high end, only to find out the cabinets were Ikea paired with different hardware, shelves and lighting. On the flip side I've seen expensive kitchens that looked really cheap.

I also don't agree that many buyers would prefer to get a discount and do the work themselves. Everyone wants a discount, but when it comes down to it, like you and kylewest, the hassles (there are many), don't seem worth it.

If you do decide to go through with it and you're thinking about refacing your cabinets, and plan to live their during your reno, you might want to consider:

http://www.granitetransformations.com/home.html

They do granite composite countertops that go over your existing counter. It's like a slip cover for your counter. It sounds cheap, but the look is pretty high-end. Since it's composite you're not going to get the veiny look, but more like the black galaxy, or ceasarstone quartz look. The cost is about the same as using a real slab, but i believe they can be installed in a day so you're not really inconvenienced.

Kylewest - I agree 100%. When I look at an apartment with a mediocre kitchen or bathroom renovation, it bothers me more than if they were total crap. If they were total crap, I could just renovate to my preferences, but if there is a mediocre renovation, I would almost feel wasteful renovating something that was just renovated by someone else and doesn't truly need it.

Doesn't it boil down to tastes? I personally can't stand that in the new developments, it feels very cookie cutter with the same finishes and always VERY modern. Also, what is the suburban look that people reference? I agree with the previous posting that it doese seem wasteful redoing a recent renovation just because I'd want a classic look rather than something that is modern in 2008 but will be dated in a handful of years.

I agree with coopownr98 in principle about taste and waste. But my take is that I ONLY like my taste . . . I don't like traditional, but I have yet to see a new development that can stick with modern, without being lured off to suburban mistakes. "Custom" is used as a marketing tool (custom cabinets, for instance), but stop and think about what it's supposed to mean: customized for the end-user. So as great a pain it is to deal with renovation in NY, unless we're talking moving walls, or doing any in-wall plumbing or electrical changes, I'd rather renovate something a moldy oldy.

Suburban is 1990s-style stainless appliances, especially all those "professional" makes that have since introduced consumer models that combine the worst of consumer and pro features (Subzero, Wolf, Viking, etc.) and in some cases have been sold off to consumer companies. Suburban is greige granite counters, raised-panel cabinets (at least that's easily changed if the boxes are euro-style, five-sided . . . it's not worth changing/resurfacing doors that sit over most of the front of the cabinet; same look different day).

Think "All-Stainless Tuscan Country Kitchen!" and you're in suburbia.

I should add, though, that new developments are NOT cookie-cutter -- each one is uglier than the next.

"Suburban" = teal accents; silly curly-que designs that are supposed to be fancy and classy but look cheap; rounded corners; tiles or anything with 'faux' looks which invariably just look stupid and not at all like what the real thing is; and generally things that are marketed to appeal to the middle class by imitating the look of what the middle class thinks the upper class finds tasteful. Personally, if I see one more maple or oak colored raised panel set of kitchen cabinets with colonial-style pulls and 2-foot long runs of reddish granite countertops I'll scream. We live in NYC--not Provence or colonial Williamsburg.

I did a quick search on properties on one RE site for properties that are at least 2MM and found some listings with kitchens.

http://corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=1047671&ohDat=

http://corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=1050477&ohDat=

http://corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=1137984&ohDat=

I see some raised panels (if I understand what is meant by that), maple, and, perhaps, some granite (but possibly not greige). This isn't to say, either, that those that can afford prewar coops in the multimillion dollar range in upper park, prime upper east, or CPW have better tastes but they seem to share the same look. Granted, I don't see curliques and couldn't see the make of the appliances but isn't part of the appeal of the upper crust of Manhattan the fact that because their homes are greater in size than the average suburbanite's 4 bedroom house they can have what has been defined here as a suburban look but not have to put up with suburbia?

wyndcliff - Thanks. Will look into that granite refacing for the countertops. My only concern there is that I'm pretty sure that the existing foundation for my current cabinets is so shoddy it might not hold.

I requested a renovation quote for my 8 X 14 kitchen in a coop in NYC. I was given an estimate of 75k!!! I think this sounds CRAZY but someone tell me if this is how it is living in NYC. The architect wants $5500 for drawings.

And that 75k does NOT include appliances.

High end custom cabinetry, knock down 2 walls, build an island, raise dropped 8 ft ceiling to 11 ft and install lighting, install cement floor. Is this really worth 75k?

without knowing anything about your building or the value of your unit: No.

Like I refered to earlier, i was going to gut my 10x8 kitchen and we received 2 quotes: 1 was around $25k (interior designer based on the UWS - that I had a reference to) and one was $18k (contractor frmo LI) before appliances. This included building an island, knocking down a wall, new cabinets, etc. Also included re-running electrical. I can't foresee anything, even high end, being more than $40-$45k but maybe I'm crazy.

stash17- the quote you were given in unrealistic. As a designer, I can tell you that knocking down a wall, DONE PROPERLY, will run you at least $35000, and rewiring electrics - around $20000. That is without building an island. For taking down a wall you MUST have an archtector, a contractor and a designer are not allowed to supervise such projects. So, for your own safety, please check the licenses/permissions/expertise of the people you want to hire so it doesn't come back to you for 10 times the cost.

lacarruk1 - your quote is a bit high but only a bit. You're pretty much rebuilding the whole space, and taking down 2 walls - out of 4? It sounds like a huhe job, with a lot of the building (and potentially the city) permits. An archtect is instrumental here. If you were rebuilding any other room but a kitchen it would have cost you upward of $100000. Rebuilding in a building in a city. Expensive, yes. But you do it only once. Hopefully.

Stash17 -- What is UWS? Can you recommend your contractor and designer?

Thanks

Inquirer - How do you come up with $35k for knocking down a wall or are you saying kitchen should cost him 35k? Also - If its non-structural, why would you need architect?

lacarruk1 - UWS is Upper West Side.
Walls: even non-structural wall demolition has to be reviewd by the building architect and be allowed. 99% of building architects worth their salt will talk to an architect, not a lay person who sees nothing big in a major rearragement. 2 non-structural walls in one kitchen? Possible but not usual. Also, knocking down a kitchen wall almost definitely will require rearrangement of plumbing. Building an island- ditto. Removing debris in NYC?
The contracors I work with protect their reputation and I would never work with anybody who is KNOWINGLY underpricing the job on expence of safety and headach, just to get hired.
Think about this: to do a counter with granite countertop (no wall cabinets, no fance wood) will cost you about $4000 in HOME DEPOT. Whic is the bottom line.

UWS - Upper West Side

I think it is worth pointing out that most kitchen remodels in a coop don't involve pouring new concrete floors, ripping out the ceiling and moving walls. It is hard to imagine a more expensive undertaking for a small space--I mean, you aren't even leaving the ceiling! Is there an average price per sq/ft you can use as a starting point for a more average kitchen reno? Say demo existing cabinets and having custom ones built with new wiring and laying a new floor in a galley kitchen with 2 straight runs of cabinetry/appliances (one on each wall) exclusive of appliances?

lacarruk1-- If you're knocking down walls, moving plumbing and adding electrical your board is going to require you get an architect sign off on the plans, and you're going to need a bunch of permits.

I recently got quotes from architects working at various levels. The high end ones said they had minimum build budgets like 200k, their fee would be up to 20% of that, and they would normally expect an average per sq ft build budget of around $400 (so the kitchen would come out higher). At the mid and lower end range, the architects were willing to work within any budget. Some charged flat per project fees, while others charged 15% of the build budget, and others charged a combination of the two. $5500 sounds fair, but you could find lower.

I disagree with Inquirer on price. There are contractors, that are licensed and insured, that work at all different price levels, and the amount they charge doesn't necessarily reflect the quality of the work. Can tiling, hanging cabinets, installing drywall be 3x better if you pay 3x as much? The only area I see where the quality goes up with price is intricate mill work. That's one area where you want really highly skilled labor. 4k for granite countertop at Home Depot certainly isn't the bottom line. It's pretty common knowledge Home Depot farms this out to local shops that cut and install for them, thus driving up the price.

wyndcliff - I work with conractorw who have a bunch of workers working on a project at all times. You cannot have the same guy being an expert on pouring concrete and doing electric and plumbing. Bunch of workers = money. And when the renovation is pretty much rebuilding from scratch - what do you say?

If your contractor wants to have a bunch of workers, full-time licensed electricians, plumbers and concrete experts as employees and pay the overhead associated with that, then charge a premium for it, great for him. Or, one could do what many contractors do: hire out licensed sub-contractors to do that specialized work, and then pass on the savings.

lacarruk1 clearly has issues with paying +80k for a full kitchen reno with no appliances. You're saying he can't do much better. Just like you're saying Home Depot 'is the bottom line.' You're using your experience with your one contractor (out of the thousands that work in this city) as the standard by which all contractors should charge, then insinuating anyone charging less does so at the "expense of safety and headache." That's absurd.

wyndcliff - I use 6 different contractors. They all hire out sub-contractors. Explaining: having several people working on a project does NOT mean they are full-time employees. If you were familiar with the workings of a contractor, you would've understood it right away. Home Depot: by bottom line I meant that they are definitely not what you'd call upscale.
Not too many people can have a major renovation in a NY co-op taking many many monthsa. Time is money, and having several people working makes work go fasrer. Am I being clear now?
The same way even you would not by a Kohler sink that is $26. You'd suspect that it's not what it seems (I hope you would).
I ahd one contractor who was very gung-ho about a big project. His estimate came as a 3-line document. It did not work.

Well I was responding to your earlier comment about 1 person not being able to be an expert in all fields, and needing multiple workers on a job site to get it done. I thought that was a given. I agree.

So the $26 Kohler sink is counterfeit? So if lacarruk1 can get a much lower quote, than the contracter is what?

A contractor who values his reputation cannot cut corners. It's one thing to redo countertop and cabinets but it's entirely different sory with removing walls/wires/plumbing/ceilings. On the countertop job the difference between quotes can be huge but on a rebuilding job there are more or less standards that a professional can veer away from for only that much.
I carge up to $6000 for 2 sets of detailed drwings (1 architectural and 1 done in realistic style so a client sees exactly what the finished job will look like; that one is more like a painting). I have to say that people who want a cookie-cutter "fancy" looks usually are not my clients.
So yes, a contractor who says that a job that others charge $100000 can be done for $12000 are not good.

inquirer- you're the one who gave the countertop job as your one bad example.
Besides you, who suggested the renovation could be done for $12000? If someone says they can do it for 75k, not 100k, they're going to have to cut corners? And if someone charged 10k for drawings, would those be better than yours, and could they say you're cutting corners? Wow, I'm done on this.

My completely anecdotal experience from living with an interior designer for a decade and a half who worked on jobs from the Pierre and Sherry Netherlands and Park Ave to downtown lofts and townhomes: get 3 bids and usually pick the middle one...NEVER pick the lowest because you will pay for that dearly before it is all over. When clients would occasionally insist on accepting the lowest bid or on hiring a contractor on their own, he insisted they sign waivers relieving him of responsibility for budget overruns and other contractor issues. The lowest bidders invariably were nightmares. They ran things on such a shoestring that they were usually over their heads, had to juggle too many jobs and so showed up to work very inconsistently, regularly misread specs and ordered the wrong materials or damaged them or lost them, and on and on. Certainly you have to guard against overpaying, but looking for the cut throat bargain in NYC is a dangerous proposition. Contractors recommended by others in the building or neighboring buildings or friends is usually a good way to go. When the designer I lived with bid on jobs himself, he was regularly asked to cut corners on the time and expense of doing full sets of drawings. Those jobs he turned down. Without a good set of working drawings, bad things eventually happen. Maybe you can skip the watercolor perspective view, but unless you have an unusual talent for reading plans and spacial visualization, at least a 3-D sketch will help reveal problems before you spot them 1/2 way through construction.

Thank you everyone for the excellent comments. I hired my architect who will do the present and planned drawings. After this is complete - I will put the job out to bid with a few other contractors I have been recommended and see what they charge in comparison to what the current 75k estimate is.

My issue is justifying how could an 8 X 14 kitchen without appliances cost 75k? Say you demo 2 non structural walls which have NO electric or plumbing in them. Demo the ceiling (There is currently drop ceiling in at 8 ft but actual ceiling is 12 feet. Then drop a new ceiling a bit lower than 12 ft to run wires, lighting etc.. Install 1 wall of cabinets. The other place where the wall was will get an island. NO PLUMBING is moving. Sink is staying where it is, dishwasher staying and the gas line is not moving either.

Yes - We will remove the existing 30 year old linoleum floor and pour a concrete floor with a nice finish.

This sounds like 50k to me.... But time will tell when I get my additional estimates.

For whatever it's worth, I found that Homedepot's estimate for granite countertops for a job in the Hamptons was higher than several independent shops. I went with a small shop. That may not translate to NYC.

Guys - It was a very very small wall that separates our foyer from our kitchen. But, I see all of your points. They were going to knock down that small wall and re-run electrical. This, of course, would have been after my condo board approval.

To that end, I'm no longer contemplating that. Now going granite or quartz countertops / building a 1 ft x 4 ft island and new cabinets top and bottom. Already have new appliances which we'll have to take out and then put back in when complete. No electrical work needed. Just demo / labor / installation/ etc. What's a realistic quote for this?