Waiting for an HDFC Board Yes/No/Anything

Let me guess, is the apt on Central Park North?

Nope. It's in Hamilton Heights, at the top of Sugar Hill.

similar situation: Hamilton Heights HDFC building on Convent Ave, application in, all kinds of nonsense from all parties involved....

i got a call from someone yesterday who 'has no final say' and is in a pre-board committee who told me that she would recommend to reject my application because i'm currently in an HDFC (although selling and moving out before hand).

from prior and current experience, i can tell you that hdfc's are run by about 1/2 insane people, and 1/2 sightly reliable ones.

Either 400 or 470 Convent?

subtract 200 from the latter...

My friend considered buying an apartment in that building but swiftly withdrew her offer when some bad behavior appeared from the board. These were not the people she wanted to deal with for the foreseeable future.

do you mind if i ask what happened?

We are trying to buy at 470, I believe Avaris is attempting to buy at 270.

It's really frustrating.

@Semerun - what happened?

This was more a situation of bad behavior from a broker than it was the board itself. In this instance the broker told us that she was a very close friend of a member of the board (I think it was the President, I can't recall this was nearly 2 years ago before the listing hit the NYC real estate sites). My friend was looking to buy a 2 bedroom @ 270- which was very small for what she really wanted- but the unit had all the great pre-war details she valued. She is single and was told by the broker that the board frowned upon 1 person purchasing a 2 bedroom apartment. The broker then proceeded to tell my friend that she should lie to the board that she would be buying the unit for herself and a (non-existent) boyfriend. Now, if the broker didn't disclose how close of a friend she was to the board member, we would have just assumed this was a lousy broker, but that wasn't the case. My friend's goal was to buy a home that she could live in for the next 20+ years and not outgrow. The policy of limiting the number of rooms based on the number of applicants at the time of purchase- that didn't meet her goal of buying a home she could grow into.

thanks for letting us know semerun! i assumed this would be the case after having read the past discussion about 270. as i mentioned, i was called by a lady who seemed to delight in telling me that my application would be rejected because I already have an HDFC. she then brought up the number of people to occupy the apartment (which is 2, my partner and I) and implied that it wouldn't be enough... i've had some experience with hdfc boards and communities now, and can safely say that some people just take great pleasure in making up rules and facts to torture others with.

So... lots of gossip but ... does anyone have any experience on how long this process is? It's been 8 weeks. I have a 2 year old, and teh turmoil of leaving our 1 BR, to go into a sublet, and still not knowing if we got this apartment... well.

So. Any estimates?

I don't know the individual coop decision pace- but generally 3 months is a reasonable assumption for most buildings. I have 2 friends looking at HDFC coops- one recently got rejected at the one on Central Park North and that one took about 5 months for her to finally get a decision.

So interesting! I have heard that 270 Convent has a bad history of delaying people and jerking them around, and when I tried to rent from an owner in that building several years ago, they made me go through the same elaborate process a buyer would, so I walked away. (The poor owners had the hardest time getting anyone to rent their place while they were away for a year. They intimated that there were a lot of ugly politics within the building and that they'd been hassled by the board for the desire to rent the place temporarily although the building's bylaws did allow renting...) And I've seen sales listings there come and go on the market suddenly and capriciously.

Right now I am in contract at 470 Convent and hoping, praying that the rest of the process will go smoothly. If everything works out, maybe I'll be closing In July. I haven't quite submitted my whole application package yet, and the amount of paper which has changed hands already is staggering. I figured as soon as the rest of the application package goes in, then I'll probably have to wait 6 weeks or so to hear back, and hopefully the interview would soon follow. Things have been slow so far, but everything seems to be going well. This process is not for the faint of heart! As far as I can tell, 470 Convent is well and sensibly run. I am really hopeful that everything can be sane and positive--let's stay positive that despite the inevitable frustrations of NYC real estate transactions, some HDFC coop purchases can be all that they should be!

Hey Uptown2012! What apt are you up for at 470? We are trying to buy #42. We finally have an interview. We waited about 12 weeks for an interview.

Hopefully we will be neighbors. GOOD LUCK! I adore the building and the apartment. I just want to move in already :)

Hi, nex0s--

Good luck with the interview! I've seen your apartment and it was lovely. What a great building and what exceptionally nice floor plans that line of apartments has. If all goes well, we'll be right over you in #52. Small world, eh?

Our interview isn't scheduled yet, but I hope it will be soon. And once all is done, I hope to be able to start a new thread here on Streeteasy about how great HDFC coops are, how it's possible for this whole process to work just the way it should for everyone involved, and how there are happy endings for us modest real estate dreamers trying to own our own little piece of Manhattan. It is a lot of suspense going through the process, though--I'm with you there. Sounds like your suspense is nearly over, though. Let us know how it goes!

Uptown,

I hope we are neighbors!

Just so you know, it took this board 12 weeks to get back to us for an interview. WE were supposed to interview tomorrow, and just now, at 7 p.m. the day before the interview, they are trying to change it. So, we'll see.

I adore the building and the apartments. Hopefully we'll be living there soon. *sigh*

Being patient is really difficult, and this whole thing has taken MUCH longer than I thought it would.

Hi, nexOs,

What a shame that it's so hard getting over those last few hurdles. Here's hoping the new date for your interview is very soon ... and that ours happens a little faster schedule than yours did, if possible. It would be nice to have some neighbors with whom to be new together if all goes well. I live in the neighborhood now, so occasionally I walk past 470 and look up and think "I hope those are about to be my windows soon, and I'll be up there looking out ...."

Being patient IS hard, especially when you really want something and know it will be good. I'm trying to be positive rather than worry, but it doesn't come naturally. I'm keeping my fingers crossed fro you that all goes well with the new interview date, etc.

all good wishes--

Hey Uptown2012!

Had our interview on Saturday and got word this morning (monday) that we passed. WOO HOO!

Hope to meet you soon :D Good luck!

Congrats, nex0s!!

now that you will be a shareholder, vote with your shares to get the asses who are currently on the board the hell out. being able to afford living where you really want should not come with a 4-6 month guessing game. this is a corporation and should behave as such.

NexOs--

BIG congrats! That's wonderful. A happy ending to your long, arduous wait! Every good wish to you for the closing, move, and life in the new home. It looks like it will be a month or two more waiting for us, though we are not really hearing anything now and it's nerve-wracking.

I think ab_11218 expresses his or her views a tad forcefully, but there certainly is an important point there. As new shareholders join a co-op community, they inevitably help shape its values and practices, and that's a good and natural thing. Being more buyer-friendly might well be a new direction for a lot of buildings presently welcoming new buyers with arduous processes ...

Anyway, I'm happy to hear your great news. I hope you're savoring it!

Uptown,

Just so you know, it was a good 16 months from contract to interview, so definitely don't plan on going anywhere soon. :( FWIW: your broker is the president of the board and lives in the building. He doesn't do interviews (conflict of interest) but if he let you put a contract on the apartment, I'm sure you will be OK.

I hope to see you in a couple of months. Feel free to come by and knock on the door and introduce yourself!

16 months?!? That is completely insane! I think ab_11218 is right on the target. Sheesh . . . .

drdrd--Yes, this kind of wait is extremely daunting. Not optimal. Maybe even crazy-making. But .... if you really really want to live in a great building in a good location and you aren't rich, this is probably the best path. Our city is so polarized now between the rich and the poor, who are exclusively being pushed to the remote edges of the city (as in Paris), that opportunities for people of modest means to have the Manhattan life so many New Yorkers value are rare. We can't have the benefits of the HDFC apartments without the pain, I guess. Living in this town has always meant doing what you have to do, and at present, it seems for some people that means wait. I am hoping so much that I can hang on long enough for this to work for me as it did for nexOs.

uptown,

if your broker is the president of the board or the board member, you will not wait too long. if that will happen, it means that there's a piece of garbage on the board who refuses to see potential shareholders if he doesn't get a piece of the pie. plain and simple.

Best of luck to you, Uptown.

I don't know how these buildings work but since my last post I had another idea. Perhaps there is a government office which acts like the management company of the building & that is what slows things down so? Nonetheless, 16 months is a long wait. You seem to have a great attitude, Uptown. Do hope you get exactly what you want.

Thanks for your thoughts, ab and dr. NexOs, who started this thread, is the role model here--and proof that good things can happen for those who wait. So, we'll see what happens ...

Uptown - I wrote 16 months... I meant 16 WEEKS!!! So sorry. Still, it's a long time, much longer than usual. Hang in there! We are in now, so please come by and knock on our door when you are accepted :)

16 weeks is excessive, but definitely not as bad as 16 months. there are times with regular boards that if you submit your board package now (early July), it's not uncommon to meet with the board in September.

Can you tell me what the address of the HDFC on Central Park North is? I'm planning to apply to one in South Harlem, but will think twice if this is the one that people are talking about.

Semerun, I'm curious about your friend who was advised to lie to the board and say that she was buying for herself and a boyfriend. Wouldn't her boyfriend's income have to be verified? Isn't the income of all occupants considered when one applies?

Hi, eveyone--

I just thought maybe someone would be interested in the end of the story as regards one more of these HDFC apartment purchases.

Today I walked downstairs from my lovely new apartment to meet my delightful downstairs neighbor, NexOs, who started this thread in a plaintive vein last spring. Reading backwards, you'll see things worked out for her this summer, which is great. By now I've kind of lost track of how the timeline went for me--it was snowy the first time I viewed the apartment ... I over-optimistically thought I'd have closed and moved in this past July. Oh, no. About a million little problems and delays cropped up while I bit my fingernails ... and worried ... and worried more ... and then ... wait for it ... well, then, everything has turned out just right! Yes. We've closed, we have keys, we move in soon.

Convent Avenue is gorgeous, the building is wonderful, and it is all Worth It. I know Streeteasy is a place of worldly-wise and sometimes cynical folks, many of whom are concerned about real estate more as a kind of sport or as investment or whatever. But for everyone out there who is reading their way through these boards dreaming of finding a home--for everyone who hopes that The System can work for them, I want to say, yes, dream on! Happy endings are possible and good opportunities exist.

The whole HDFC coop concept is complicated, confusing, hard to research. You have to move mountains and jump through hoops. You have to be smart and patient and lucky. Waiting can be hard and it can be scary. And--it can all pay off in the end with a prize of great worth. Here's to living in our beautiful city, to being a home-owner, and to benefitting from government programs that really work and do good things. Here's to happy endings, to shared information and to people helping each other figure out the world one Streeteasy post at a time. Big thanks from me to everyone who shared expertise in this thread--and in the various other recent ones dealing with the mysteries and aracana of all matters HDFC!

Uptown- welcome to the neighborhood and congrats. SoHarlem, the building was 45 West CPN. As to my friend that was applying to the building where she was advised to lie to the board-we thought the exact same thing you did...how can you lie to a co-op board like that???

Congrats to you, Uptown, you done good! xox

Can any advise me? I was in process of buying an HDFC address 50 W 112 st unit 6c. I waited 7 long months for my board interview, finally had the interview and two weeks after I was informed by the broker via an email with an attachment that the board approved me to proceed with the contracts. I hired an attorney and proceeded with the contract part but three months into the board not providing the attorney with the necessary paper work to my attorney I was sent a text from the broker telling me (the board decided not to proceed with the sale) no reason given! After I have been approved and after it's already ben almost a full year!! I am left with nothing and I struggle immensely with housing. I qualify I am who the HDFC are intended for yet they won't let me cause they don't feel like it. From what I understand these buildings benefit from major tax cuts and subsisdies to provide affordable housing yet they withhold that and act like they own it. Is there anything I can do?? Is there a regulatory body that can help me???? Please advise! Thank you

Can any advise me? I was in process of buying an HDFC address 50 W 112 st unit 6c. I waited 7 long months for my board interview, finally had the interview and two weeks after I was informed by the broker via an email with an attachment that the board approved me to proceed with the contracts. I hired an attorney and proceeded with the contract part but three months into the board not providing the attorney with the necessary paper work to my attorney I was sent a text from the broker telling me (the board decided not to proceed with the sale) no reason given! After I have been approved and after it's already ben almost a full year!! I am left with nothing and I struggle immensely with housing. I qualify I am who the HDFC are intended for yet they won't let me cause they don't feel like it. From what I understand these buildings benefit from major tax cuts and subsisdies to provide affordable housing yet they withhold that and act like they own it. Is there anything I can do?? Is there a regulatory body that can help me???? Please advise! Thank you

Can any advise me? I was in process of buying an HDFC address 50 W 112 st unit 6c. I waited 7 long months for my board interview, finally had the interview and two weeks after I was informed by the broker via an email with an attachment that the board approved me to proceed with the contracts. I hired an attorney and proceeded with the contract part but three months into the board not providing the attorney with the necessary paper work to my attorney I was sent a text from the broker telling me (the board decided not to proceed with the sale) no reason given! After I have been approved and after it's already ben almost a full year!! I am left with nothing and I struggle immensely with housing. I qualify I am who the HDFC are intended for yet they won't let me cause they don't feel like it. From what I understand these buildings benefit from major tax cuts and subsisdies to provide affordable housing yet they withhold that and act like they own it. Is there anything I can do?? Is there a regulatory body that can help me???? Please advise! Thank you

Can any advise me? I was in process of buying an HDFC address 50 W 112 st unit 6c. I waited 7 long months for my board interview, finally had the interview and two weeks after I was informed by the broker via an email with an attachment that the board approved me to proceed with the contracts. I hired an attorney and proceeded with the contract part but three months into the board not providing the attorney with the necessary paper work to my attorney I was sent a text from the broker telling me (the board decided not to proceed with the sale) no reason given! After I have been approved and after it's already ben almost a full year!! I am left with nothing and I struggle immensely with housing. I qualify I am who the HDFC are intended for yet they won't let me cause they don't feel like it. From what I understand these buildings benefit from major tax cuts and subsisdies to provide affordable housing yet they withhold that and act like they own it. Is there anything I can do?? Is there a regulatory body that can help me???? Please advise! Thank you

Can any advise me? I was in process of buying an HDFC address 50 W 112 st unit 6c. I waited 7 long months for my board interview, finally had the interview and two weeks after I was informed by the broker via an email with an attachment that the board approved me to proceed with the contracts. I hired an attorney and proceeded with the contract part but three months into the board not providing the attorney with the necessary paper work to my attorney I was sent a text from the broker telling me (the board decided not to proceed with the sale) no reason given! After I have been approved and after it's already ben almost a full year!! I am left with nothing and I struggle immensely with housing. I qualify I am who the HDFC are intended for yet they won't let me cause they don't feel like it. From what I understand these buildings benefit from major tax cuts and subsisdies to provide affordable housing yet they withhold that and act like they own it. Is there anything I can do?? Is there a regulatory body that can help me???? Please advise! Thank you

These are privately held corporations- able to make whatever decisions they feel are in the best interest of the corporation (even if they are incorrect) as long as they aren't doing anything illegal in the process, and while HPD does have a bit of a hand in regulation, it's a very light touch. I have worked with many HDFC's and the best advice I can provide is that many HDFC's are extremely difficult purchases- from boards, to financing, etc. While there are some strong HDFC's do understand that it's rarely easy. Also note, when working with buyers- I often advise against buying in HDFC's that require board approval prior to contract signing. While you can be rejected by the board in either instance, the widely accepted practice across most co-op's in Manhattan is to get into contract first- allowing you to solidify your price, your deal with the seller, and do the appropriate due diligence with the building. In your case, you had none of these locked up- and could have found out the hard way almost a year later that the building could have been a higher risk situation than you felt comfortable with (not sure if that is indeed the case with this building). Unfortunately a lot of HDFC's have adopted this practice, and I warn my buyers appropriately of these risks.

The only thing worse than a Coop is an HDFC coop (with the possible exception of a Mitchell-Lama or former Mitchell-Lama coop).

Full disclosure - I am not an agent. I live in an hdfc, and am friendly with my neighbors and other hdfc owners.
...I had heard some things about the agent listed for this unit in question. He also runs a management company. I have heard of at least 1 prior case where a building switched over to a larger managing company, and then reconsidered his advice concerning sales, which meant taking units off market. I don't know if something along those lines is what happened for your apartment. But like all coops, all it requires is a change of board for a building to shift course.
That said, the mayor/ administration is being very aggressive with hdfcs. I think, were you to live in one, it might become clear that less rather than more regulation by the city is better. This is not because regulations are all bad, but because the city has truly not conducted itself in a trustworthy way over the historical life of this class of housing.
Some of us speculate that recent actions and attempts on the part of the city may have implications for how the administration plans to intervene in housing rules and asset values across a wider spectrum.
...I feel that hdfcs can be excellent choices and communities. I think it can be a personal decision about the order of due diligence and board interview since the practice of reversing the order, in my understanding, was created to save moderate income buyers the cost of due diligence should they not get board approval. In principle, however, I agree with UptownSpecialist. These buildings have very different relationships with the city so proper research is critical.

Many attorney's will credit a client for the next deal- meaning the client has little financially invested in a deal until a sale closes and if the deal falls apart- the credit applies to when it does finally happen. That said, when boards do want to approve buyers prior to contracts being signed- it's generally a signal to me that most really don't understand the true nature of what occurs in the market (I was a training manager in the financial services sector prior to becoming an agent- and it included managing the training to risk management teams).

Approving buyers first prior to contract signing can be a high risk proposition (though not always). I have identified a few key areas of risk for my buyer clients in these situations- and while the advice can be lost on the premise of "an amazing deal", the clients often realize the impacts later in the process- and wind up frustrated despite my warnings. I have had clients move forward in spite of these concerns, and some work out just fine, while more commonly it's delay after delay after delay.

I agree with David2016 in terms of regulation and what the current administration has proposed. It's best that the city simply honor the regulatory agreement that was issued when the building became a co-op and let it rest. The current adminstration over-reacted to the insolvent buildings in the program and blindly wants to blanket all HDFC's for the sins of a few.

This flip side of that is that aside from some pretty glaring cases of mismanagement, there have been a number of HDFC coops who didn't abide by their agreements with the city and not only didn't strict adhere to the income restrictions, but owners got greedy and the the two (rather onerous) flip taxes were not collected and the city wasn't paid. I'm not going to give specific examples because I don't really want to be the cause of litigation against these buildings.

In the particular case of the 60/40 RA (40% city/30% building/30% profit to seller - definition you are referencing?) the city usually collects unpaid taxes at the termination of the 25 year regulatory period. If the building does not have the reserves to pay back, then shareholders have diminished leverage against the city and are forced to re-sign a new agreement under the terms the city offers.
That said, at the inception of hdfcs, there was no 40% flip tax to the city. The city had wanted to get rid of the tax burden of the buildings and the requirements of getting them to code. Several years later (5?) after the original agreements were signed and the shareholders began to successfully renew their buildings and neighborhoods, the city wanted to make money off the renewal. The city went back and retroactively had the agreements changed. Buildings banded together in court and made a compelling case that the city's decision to alter contracts post facto was illegal, but the court allowed the city to proceed. This is the reason some old timers despise the flip tax to the city.
Additionally, at that time, city officials pocketed renovation funds granted to specific buildings (renewal mostly prevailed via diy efforts nonetheless) but in some cases the city used disrepair of buildings as an excuse to bully them.
This systemic racism is coming to light recently. There is some speculation that the city crackdown has more to do with trying to stifle the voices who are excavating this history than to do with distressed buildings.
That said, hdfcs that are well managed, solvent and have good attorneys are able to avoid this mess, but eventually I think it's the city that will get sued. There is also conflict from within as some reps live in hdfcs themselves.

I am ignorant of the facts to argue against whether the city instituted the 60/40RA ex post facto on some coops, however I can state with certainty that there are many where it was in the original offering documents and some of those are the ones which didn't make appropriate flip tax collections.

If I recall, the date change is either on certificates of incorporation or the RA itself. In any case, it's far from clear that non-payment could result in litigation of buildings. Though it might have other serious consequences.
I'm glad you brought it up.

David2016,

I am curious what you think of this listing:
https://streeteasy.com/building/648-grand-street-brooklyn/2d

They say there is a 30% flip tax paid by seller, so it seems like they are still under HDFC rules, plus they list the income requirements, etc. but they don't say anything about the 40% which would be going to the City. What is your opinion?

30 - many buildings don't have the 40% to the city. Some RAs never had it. The "60/40" I described above is one of several particular agreements. This RA looks like one that gets referred to as a "70/30." There was also a period when it was possible for a building to legally migrate from 60/40 to 70/30 in exchange for early renewal of the RA. What I would want to find out is which kind of 70/30 this building has, whether it also has asset caps and/or monitors. There are a lot of 70/30 RAs that don't have these things because the city has not been very successful at implementing its recent attempt to impose rules.
Also some building attorneys advise buildings to keep income caps in place after RA expiration. It usually depends on the language in the certificate of incorporation.