Advice needed!

If you want family friendly, why don't you just move to NJ or CT and get a backyard and a picket-fence?

At this point, ALL real estate is appreciating slowly. If you're looking to buy, don't expect any realistic return before about 7-10 years.

As far as your monthly carrying charges, eventually you'll have to pay the piper, one way or the other. Condo monthly charges are deceptively low because they don't include taxes, and condos are often structured in such a way that the taxes can be much higher than if the building were a co-op.

Frankly, buyers looking in the $1 million and up range shouldn't be nickel and diming on the monthly carrying costs. If a few hundred dollars a month makes that much of a difference, you're really stretching yourselves.

East Harlem is NOT "family friendly", despite the glossy building websites I'm sure you've been perusing. Particularly if your family is not one "of color". There is a lot of noise, a lot of grit and grime, and not a whole lot of neighborhood amenities. I have a friend who moved to East Harlem in one of those glitzy buildings and is sorry he did; he feels like a prisoner in his own home, having to leave the neighborhood for every little thing from groceries and dry cleaning to nightlife. Don't expect a Hudson Heights-style gentrification anytime soon (within the next 15 years).

If you like being on that part of the island, I'd suggest sticking with Yorkville.

Yes that's good advice from Matt.
Or consider Brooklyn.

so you want to start a family in a neighborhood that has the schools, rated from 1 to 5 stars, with ZERO stars?

now take what you will be saving in an East Harlem condo and add $2-3K per month for similar education that your child will have for FREE if you were to buy on UES. then add that in 5 yrs your taxes will go up. then in another 5 yrs they'll go up even more. and finally in another 5 yrs your taxes will be so high that noone will buy your not so new and shiny condo anymore....

get the picture?

"Frankly, buyers looking in the $1 million and up range shouldn't be nickel and diming on the monthly carrying costs. If a few hundred dollars a month makes that much of a difference, you're really stretching yourselves."

Or maybe the OP understands how to value a perpetuity and realizes that a few hundred bucks a month difference in maintenance can easily have a six-figure impact on the value of an apartment.

Perhaps some better advice would be for the OP to understand why monthly payments are different between apartments, whether it's amenities, tax abatements, underlying mortgages, etc.

On coops vs condos

Coops VERY very roughly "average" $1.60 per sq ft maintanence and condos $1.10 per sq ft combine c/c charges and tax. However, this is highly masked by the abundance of tax abatements that without will put you around $2 per sq ft. Abatements that are half over at year 5 putting you even.
Co-ops do trend 10% lower, however the last 10 years saw the greatest increase in condos built ever as the vast majority of new contruction are condos.
15 years ago I'd bet closings were 80% co-ops, 20% condos.That put a substancial premium on condos. Today it is probably 50/50. That's because condo inventory caught up.

I think in 7 to 10 years this tried and true dynamic of higher value for condos will greatly diminish as the combination of rocketing monthlies after abatements for condos will make coops more attractive.

Your purchase range should have nothing to do with how much or little one is concerned with monthly carrying costs. There are so many different circumstances for people that allow for tightening on one aspect of costs, but liberal on others.

Thanks all for your comments... I think we will go with Yorkvill/Sutton place/Lenox Hill for now.

Here you go, you can probably get tthis place for $700-$750

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/652404-coop-320-e-57th-st-sutton-place-new-york

and keep plenty of monry in the bank

That's a nice one that Brooks put up there.

Matt is correct in saying that you should not expect any appreciation anytime soon. Don't buy thinking of this as an investment unless you intend to hold for an extended time. And even then, you may not get much return. Real estate in NYC is pretty flat and will likely remain so for some time to come.

I also forgot about the *schools* aspect, and how difficult it will be to sell to another family with kids.

And let's not forget the damn tax abatement, which isn't permanent. Eventually the monthlies will explode. And like ab pointed out, it'll be impossible to try to sell at that point.

You have to REALLY like your neighborhood to be willing to put yourself at such a disadvantage.

If you hit West Harlem you are in the UWS school district

"buyers looking in the $1 million and up range shouldn't be nickel and diming on the monthly carrying costs. If a few hundred dollars a month makes that much of a difference, you're really stretching yourselves."

Agree 100%.

I would add that the relevant difference between condos and co-ops is not money-related. Rather, the difference is lifestyle-related. Condos allow much more freedom regarding subletting and who can stay in the apartment. Co-ops are much stricter. If you want to sublet your brains out, get a condo. If you don't want to live next door to people who sublet their brains out, get a co-op.

rent

Well put, Lucy.

I might tweak it, though: "If you want buy and live in a building of renters, buy a condo. If you don't want to live in a building of renters, buy a co-op."

Or, "if you want to live in a building full of judgy better-than-thous, buy a co-op. If you want to live in a building of normal people, buy a condo."

"Normal people" = those who wouldn't otherwise get approved by a co-op board.

I looked at the listings again -- feeling somewhat discouraged. Many of the apartments on the UES have fixtures and furnishings that even my parents will not like. The brand new condos are out of our budget (unless we compromise and go with a Junior 4).

I am open to considering other areas in in Manhattan -- any thoughts?

find a fixer upper and fix it up. if you don't mind chinatown/les, you can try Seward Park. you'll be able to get an apartment and renovate. just make sure you're in the section that belongs to the right district. the maintenance there is very low and you have partying places near by for without child and the library/park for with child.

Great neighborhood if you dont mind a first floor apartment at the Albert.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/647468-coop-23-east-10th-street-greenwich-village-new-york

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/664234-coop-101-west-12th-street-greenwich-village-new-york

price is always "negotiable."

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/661480-coop-130-east-19th-street-gramercy-park-new-york

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/683086-coop-242-east-19th-street-gramercy-park-new-york

Hi John,
My wife and I just put our 2-bed/2-bath condo in the Upper East Side on the market about a month ago. We absolutely love it (and the building and neighborhood), and are only selling to move closer to our children's school. The link is below. If you want to see it, there will be an open house on Sunday. Good luck in your search! Regarding the condo/co-op debate, we prefer actually owning the property in a condo vs buying into a "company ownership" aspect of a co-op.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/675439-condo-1619-third-avenue-yorkville-new-york

John, do consider the sutton place area. We were at our annual co op meeting last night and the property manager noted that there were over 90 two bedroom or classic six apartments available in this area. we bought in 2009 and thought we were getting a steal. well, guess what...there is still plenty of inventory at similar prices here. however, there is a new Whole Foods opening here next month as well as a new elementary school that my kids (your age) feel will be highly regarded. our son just bought a large (4 bedrooms) apartment in this area and is thrilled with the space he got for the money. It's not a 'happening' area but new restaurants have opened lately that add quite a bit of convenience and panache to the neighborhood. good luck with the search.

Rosina - we like the Sutton place area and have been looking at coop units. However the prices haven't appreciated since 2005/2006, and plus the high carrying costs (common charges). Our monthly payment (with a 30-40%) down works out to be over $7000 for a 2br 2 bath. It made renting a 2 br 2 bath seem like a better choice as the same size units in the coop we were looking at was asking for $5000 per month. Then again, I prefer to own but we are now re-evaluating our choices. Have I missed anything in my consideration?

john, one thing i might add is that our building requires 50% down and i think surrounding buildings are pretty similar. our monthly on our classic 6 is $3000 which i think is about the norm for a building its size (88 units). i looked at the cost of a large two bedroom (1400 sq ft) for sale, guessing it would go for about 1,022,000 in our building, and with a $2500 monthly maintenance and 50% down, your monthly payment would be around $5000. but then...that is based on 50% down.

miller, why u need to buy in manhattan? do u want your kids be playing with neighbor children near your front/backyard?

Hi John,
My husband and I have loved the UES as our two children went to prep schools in the area. Since they're out of their own now and living in different areas, we're now selling to be closer to relatives. Check out our Open House this Sunday in a really great family oriented area:
http://www.elliman.com/new-york-city/ruppert-yorkville-towers-1619-third-avenue-unit-6he-manhattan-jxijqju
BTW: Our apartment has great views and is away from the loading dock for garbage pick-up.

Take a walk up 8th Avenue starting at 110th Street. You have Central Park (and the playground) to your South and Morningside Park & Playground to your West - up the Hill is Columbia/St John the Divine. You will notice lots of young families with children moving into that area. I live close by and love it.

Normal people" = those who wouldn't otherwise get approved by a co-op board.

Matt, i bet you would not be approved by your coop board now. My guess is 75% of people living in these coops are stuck as they can't move, unless leaving town.

If you are looking in Yorkville please take in consideration the enormous amount of inventory when it's time to sell.
You'll be competing with a lot more sellers in that neighborhood. Tons and Tons of apts for sale and rent in Yorkville.

Miller, Have you thought about Brooklyn?

dhauser - we did look at Brooklyn but prices are high in some of the areas that are children-friendly it seems more logical to stay in Yorkville... .

Have you guys thought of living downtown? There are some good schools downtown and many neighborhoods that are very child friendly.