Toren

Oh my lord... I just realized... you bought at the Toren, too.

ROTFL

Another broker shill... then are, you probably ARE junkman.... complementing yourself on your own posts.

ap307, does that stand for apartment 3007 at The Toren? A three bedroom and the most expensive unit sold in the building so far?

How Fallout Could Affect Main Street

By RON LIEBER
Published: July 12, 2008
The stock market swoon over Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac this week has left many consumers scratching their heads, wondering if buying a home is a worse idea than it was seven days ago or whether to take down the “for sale” sign in the yard.

So now is a good time to step back and assess the landscape.

Thus far, the biggest damage has been mostly to Fannie’s and Freddie’s investors, though the overall stock market has recoiled as the companies stumbled. In the housing market, consumers are still moving into new homes, and people continued to close on new loans Friday.

But if you are shopping for a home or a mortgage or considering selling a home, you may wonder what will happen next if things get worse for Fannie and Freddie. Will mortgage rates rise, and home prices fall further? Could the troubles affect the rates you are charged for other loans? Answering these questions starts with a brief (I promise) primer on what the two entities do and why they’re important.

In the beginning, there’s a mortgage lender. It can lend you money it has taken in from deposits on checking accounts and certificates of deposit if it wants. But many lenders choose to sell most or all of their home loans once they make them, and then use the proceeds of the sale to make even more loans.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are the buyers for many of these loans, which makes them crucial to the continued ability of companies to lend money to you and me for a house. Freddie likens itself to a wholesaler supplying a retail store: the retail store is a bank selling money.

Once Fannie and Freddie have bought enough loans, they turn many of them into bonds and sell those bonds to investors. Your mutual funds may hold many of them, something many consumers may just be noticing, after letting out a sigh of relief because they were not planning to buy or sell a home anytime soon.

The mortgage financing system hums along until Fannie and Freddie have trouble raising money to buy loans, or it costs them more to raise the money. And that’s what is happening now. “That increased cost must be passed along; it’s the nature of the beast,” says Keith T. Gumbinger, vice president of the financial publisher HSH Associates, where he has tracked mortgage rates for more than two decades.

The question then is how, if at all, any of these higher costs will be passed along through the mortgage lenders to consumers.

As of Friday, not much had changed, and mortgage bankers were putting on a brave face. “It is business as usual, and rates have held steady for the past two days,” said David G. Kittle, chairman elect of the Mortgage Bankers Association and chief executive of Principle Wholesale Lending in Louisville, Ky. He said the company locked in rates for one buyer and two people who were refinancing on Friday morning, as the stocks plummeted, and that the hand-wringing over Fannie and Freddie amounts to a “media feeding frenzy.”

Karen Shaw Petrou, managing partner of policy consultant Federal Financial Analytics, sees a remote possibility that mortgage rates could in fact fall. If the federal government took control of Fannie and Freddie, a possibility that the Treasury secretary, Henry M. Paulson Jr., seemed to discount in a statement Friday, the companies’ financing costs would probably drop some because government control suggests a government guarantee. Until now, the government has provided credit lines to the companies but stopped short of such a promise.

Many mortgage experts, however, expect rates to rise a quarter percentage point to half a point in the coming weeks. The average rate on Thursday for a prime 30-year fixed-rate nonjumbo mortgage was about 6.45 percent for someone not paying special fees known as points to lower the rate, according to HSH Associates data. That kind of spike wouldn’t be too unusual at a time when rates often rise and fall by at least that much over a period of weeks, for any number of reasons.

Over the longer term, a dysfunctional Freddie and Fannie could send mortgage rates higher than they would have been otherwise, relative to key market rates like Treasury securities.

For now, if you’re considering buying a house or refinancing a mortgage, and that rate rise is enough to make a difference, then maybe the deal is not affordable. “If someone is so tight that a quarter point kills a deal, they probably ought to be rethinking what they’re doing,” says Bert Ely, a banking consultant in Alexandria, Va.

For mortgage shoppers comfortable with loans at today’s prices, now is the time to lock in, or guarantee, an interest rate with the lender, which can effectively set the rate over the life of a fixed-rate loan. Given the current uncertainty, there’s always the possibility that lenders will be less willing to offer rate locks in the coming weeks.

Outside the mortgage industry, there is some concern that a further crippled Fannie and Freddie could make it harder for consumers to borrow in all forms. “There is a contagion effect. If investors in various kinds of loans get concerned about one kind of capital market, it can spread to other markets,” said Mark Kantrowitz, who runs the college financing site FinAid.org and saw this firsthand in student loans over the past year or so. “They tend to pull back from everything, not just their initial area of concern.”

All the consternation this week only highlights how much rests on the value of our homes and shows that loan pricing and availability can keep the value from falling further. “The implications run everywhere, through to consumer spending and state and local governments,” said Mark Zandi, chief economist of Moody’s Economy.com. “Anything that exacerbates the problem is very bad news. It’s just sticking a finger into an already deep and festering wound.”

Mr. Zandi said he thought the federal government would step in to stabilize the situation if mortgage rates rose much more than that quarter or half point.

The government might take any number of steps to buck up the two ailing entities. The bonds that Fannie and Freddie sell are held all over the world, by mutual funds and foreign governments. Any hint that those securities are in peril could further undermine faith in the United States economy, given that Fannie and Freddie were created and chartered by the American government.

In an election year, meanwhile, with the housing market already lousy in most places, the federal government will almost certainly do everything in its power to make sure that banks have continued access to Fannie and Freddie funds for loans to creditworthy home buyers.

Send mortgage rate predictions to rlieber@nytimes.com.

For years, the broker shills were saying Manhattan would be immune from national troubles, and its an unrelated market.

Now this broker shill ass is using articles on the national market to show how NYC wil be safe? OH MY LORD, talk about hypocrisy (mixed with some stupidity).

For some actual facts that matter, how bout per today's NYTimes.... finance folks make up 25-30% of buyers, and what they can afford has pretty much been HALVED "overnight" (NYTimes words).
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/13/realestate/13cover.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&ref=realestate

Keep rationalizing, the buildings like the Toren that were the last to the party (and in marginal neighborhoods) are COMPLTELY fucked.

Ignoring comment feature on StreetEasy is fantastic. I love reading on my screen, "ignoring comment by Eddie Wilson" Love it.

Eddie did you say something? lol

Wow, somebody sounds like they're about ready to go crying off to mommy.

I don't give a sh*t about whether or not this broker shills read my posts or not.... just making sure the broker shill lies aren't pointed out.

So, keep posting your marketing materials all you want, everywhere you go, and ignore the fact that EVERYONE thinks you're an idiot. Because every one of your lies will be corrected within 10 minutes of you posting it.

Sorry, your "investment" in the toren was a stupid, stupid move. But, its clear it wasn't your first or last...

The attached link is a great picture album (courtesy of a great American, BrooklynLove) documenting the progress that is taking place in, what will be an exceptional place to live in 3-5 years, Downtown Brooklyn. Those of us who have gone into contract at the Toren can rest assured that our vision is coming closer to fruition day in and day out. Our investment in a pre-developed building in a pre-developed neighborhood will pay great dividends once all the projects that BrooklynLove has depicted here are completed.

It may not be a perfect neighborhood for a few years but at least we can hang out by the pool, exercise room, library, sauna or the bi-leveled landscaped patio while the remaining parts are completed. Don't kid yourself, each and every construction pit that gets furthered developed puts dollars in our pockets. It isn't coincidence that prices aren't going down at the Toren and in fact they are increasing based on pace of sales. Last update I got was, 61+42 = 103 contracts (43%) signed plus 8 pending in 3 short months. In any other economic environment, this building would have had lines out the door.

Once curtain wall (cladding) is completed, watch demand pick up even more. Enjoy pictures and thanks again to BrooklynLove. I'm a big fan of his.

http://picasaweb.google.com/KingsCountyLove/71308

http://www.brownstoner.com/mte/mt-search.cgi?IncludeBlogs=6&search=toren+naked

> Last update I got was, 61+42 = 103 contracts (43%) signed plus 8 pending in 3 short months.

Yeah, they said that about 110 livingston, too. And the Forte. And 1 Hanson, and... well, all the other buildings contributing to the Brooklyn glut.

Sales are down 44% in Brooklyn... and worse in the Flatbush corridor. The next 3-5 years are going to be EXTREMELY painful over there, especially as you get closer to the projects and further from the subway and the places folks want to be (North on flatbush).

Just came back from my weekly walk to the Toren in downtown Brooklyn and the "curtain wall" is completed on the 7th floor facing Flatbush Ext.

It looks incredible. Unfortunately. I didn't have a camera. If anyone is around that area, can they please take a picture of the cladding on Flatbush. I'm very psyched.

ap307,

How is the sushi in Tokyo?

When the light hits the curtain wall from the west it is amazing. ap307 will love it. The northwest corner of the building looks fantastic with the pointed glass corners. For those who want to see latest pictures of Toren with partial "curtain wall", go to link below and scroll down to "Toren and Downtown Brooklyn" written by Karl and scroll that article to the last line.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=147216&page=4

Sushi is (predictably) great.

Looking forward to going back to New York and seeing how the building is shaping up. Based on what I can see here:

http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18394

it's certainly looking lovely. Rants about property aside, there's a good chance this building could really look like something special.

Fellow Toren buyers, we got to be thankful that we will be off the Con Ed grid in Brooklyn. Let's not take the Gold/Silver LEED certification for granted. To some, it may be an ancillary consideration, but for me, it made my top five list. Con Ed is best used as a backup.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07212008/news/regionalnews/power_outage_socks_bklyn_120847.htm

How is the weather in Japan this time of year?

http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/47671.html

Anyone looking to divide alcoves into bedrooms using glass/metal sliding panels, check out The Sliding Door Company.

www.nyslidingdoor.com

As more cladding goes up what do folks feel about the color vis a vis the rendering. Seems more tan/brown than the rendering. I for one am surprised by the pace of construction. They are flying. On an unrelated note does anyone know if people are living in the Oro yet?

One of us is colorblind lilbitofluck, cuz it looked gray to me. Didn't see brown coloring at all.

As far as the Oro, no one is living there yet. And yes, those non-union workers are kicking butt.

I'm going off a photo so it could have been that. Thanks re Oro.

I know the offering plan said April 2008 as completion date. Does that seem like a realistic move-in time? Or have people heard differently?

newbuyer,

Whenever I have talked to people who are familiar with new development completion projections, they all say that there are tons of variables that can setback completion date, the most obvious being weather. Considering that work is being done by non-union labor, this may be a plus since I doubt that a strike or walkout is in the cards.

This being said, they sure appear to be progressing nicely. I'm almost tempted to lock in a 12 month mortgage at current rates. On the other hand, I would hate to have a lock timed out and incur additional cost.

With 4 contracts today that brings Toren to 45% contractually signed in just 2.5 months. (66 market+42 affordable/240 total)

I'm not an expert in the real estate industry but I got to believe that BFC Partners are feeling pretty good. Not sure how Oro is doing but I'd bet as Toren fills up, especially when "curtain wall" is completed, Oro's sales will improve. Forte and Belltel are another story altogether.

Went to site yesterday and cement trucks (at least 6) were lined up pouring the concrete foundation for the Avalon Bay Luxury Rentals next door. Once that is completed look for the metal beams to start their upward projection. Projected completion in later 2009.

Article from the NY Times discussing rising interest rates on Friday and possible effect on those of us looking for mortgages in the upcoming months.

Did ap307 know something?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/23/business/23rates.html?pagewanted=2&hp

Sorry. Times article from page one.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/23/business/23rates.html?pagewanted=1&hp

Those of you who have contracted to purchase in the Toren should watch the attached video about Downtown Brooklyn Development with special emphasis on Myrtle and Flatbush. John Catsimatidis's Red Apple Group plus Paul Travis of Washington Square Partners (City Point) will be responsible for building two of the three (Avalon Bay the other) primary structures that will surround the Toren. What they say is integral to the development of our soon to be home environment. I especially loved Paul Travis referring to the Albee Square area as a "100% location". Judging from the financial capital that will be needed in the construction of City Point, it would have to be considered a premier location to entice that kind of money.

Paul also mentions the Willoughby Square Park which is a very exciting part of this whole development and a big plus for those of us purchasing in the Toren.

Download attached link and go to Tuesday, June 10, 2008 show. (it was recorded 3/18/08)

http://www.stolerreport.com/

So many new things happening in our new neighborhood, I can hardly contain myself.

Attached is the beginning of the pedestrian landscaping in Downtown Brooklyn. Following this project, they will start on the Flatbush Corridor outside the Toren. The vision was there and now it is becoming reality.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/04/development_wat_216.php

Oh by the way, the project mentioned above was just completed. Is Flatbush/Myrtle far behind? Problem with extensive landscaping on Flatbush Ext. and Myrtle, at this time, is the major construction that will be taking place at Avalon Bay, Red Apple on Myrtle and last but not least, City Point.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/07/boerum_place_me.php

My god Junkman, not only have you hi-jacked this thread from someone else, you're posting to just post and have this thread up on the first page. You may as well just type, "BUMP" so that it doesn't disappear behind newer posts.

What do you expect? Junkman is scared shitless he's going bankrupt from his Toren purchase.

He thinks if he posts enough, folks won't notice that the building is a piece of shit in a crappy neighborhood with one of the biggest apartment gluts in history.

I see that Pudd'nhead Wilson has posted again but thanks to modern technology (Ignoring comments feature) i have no idea what he said.

Just came back from my walk of the area and have a few comments, that is, if Mr. Wilson has no objection.

1) Avalon Bay, City Point and Red Apple sites were very active but FlatIron on Tillary was inactive. Just an empty deep pit. Gold and Tillary moving along nicely.

2)I walked by pedestrian landscape in Boerum Hill and it looks great.. Will be a major improvement to Flatbush and Myrtle when they get arounf to doing it in our area.

3) Last, but no least, on the east side of the Toren, they have completed 2 floors of "curtain wall". A little higher and they will be approaching ap307's apartment.

On the third floor facing east, you can get an idea of where the pool, library and health club will be. It is definitely taking form.

Junkman can keep repeating the same BS, I can repeat my post again...

Wow, somebody sounds like they're about ready to go crying off to mommy.

I don't give a sh*t about whether or not this broker shills read my posts or not.... just making sure the broker shill lies aren't pointed out.

So, keep posting your marketing materials all you want, everywhere you go, and ignore the fact that EVERYONE thinks you're an idiot. Because every one of your lies will be corrected within 10 minutes of you posting it.

Sorry, your "investment" in the toren was a stupid, stupid move. But, its clear it wasn't your first or last...

> 1) Avalon Bay, City Point and Red Apple sites were very active
> but FlatIron on Tillary was inactive. Just an empty deep pit.
> Gold and Tillary moving along nicely.

Yes, can't wait till the 10 or so buildings in the undesirable area JunkAss is bragging about hit the market.

Thats what you call, well, a GLUT.

Had the guy known anything about real estate or, hell, MATH, he'd know that thats about the worst thing that can happen to property values in a crash.

There is movement at 388 Bridge Street. This is located west of the Sheraton and Loft Hotels across from BellTel. According to reports, it will contain 360 apartments, either rentals or condo's. If anyone doubted that this area would have 24/7 activity, think again. There will be a multitude of new residents in Albee Square area, in time, and that is good for services for those of us in the Toren.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2007/11/development_wat_160.php

Obviously, I'm getting hate mail from individuals that are not affiliated with the Toren. ie. BUMP reference. I'm not adverse to having Toren's name constantly on the lead "talk list" but I assure you that is not my intention. My posts are primarily directed towards Toren purchasers and potential buyers.

Here is today's link regarding 388 Bridge Street a projected 49 story tower. wow.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/07/development_wat_265.php

Wow, that is a CRAZY glut of apartments next to the projects.

Wow, absolutely.

I was doing some more research about Toren and thought it might be a good idea to learn more about the specific architect from S.O.M. that would be designing our building. After all, SOM is a big outfit who has a multitude of architects, some good some bad, some progressive and some traditional. Our guy is Robert Duffy. After googling, I came up with the attached article from the NYT which may provide a little more insight into Mr. Duffy.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C07EEDE1239F93AA1575AC0A9649C8B63&scp=3&sq=Roger%20Duffy%20Skidmore&st=cse

To get a more hands on feel of what Duffy can do, I took a trip to Battery Park and the Skyscraper Museum. Roger Duffy was responsible for designing this 2 floor Museum, did it pro bono, and I was totally impressed with his ability to create a skyscraper feel to a 2 flloor building. Was truly amazing.

After leaving this beautiful museum, I walked along the river uptown towards Warren Street to get the A train and I saw a building that reminded me of the Toren in some way, excepting that this building has a pine forrest and....Anyway, not saying that Toren is equal to this building but similar in shape and window structure and exterior design. So being the curious guy that I am, I asked the concierge, I think, who the architect was for this beautiful building and he said S.O.M and then I mentioned Duffy and he said, yea that's the guy.

The building is 101 Warren St in Tribeca (Battery Park) and has interiors and layouts that are totally unique but it does bear resemblance, in a slight way, to the Toren on the outside. (base and windows and shape primarily not interiors)) Let's say the Toren is 101 Warren lite, which ain't a bad place to be considering that this building goes for $1600 or more per square foot. You look and you make up your mind.

http://www.som.com/content.cfm/101_warren_street

http://www.som.com/content.cfm/toren_condominiums

Also, a couple of interesting tidbits came out of the housing bill in Washington.

1) $645,000 conforming ceiling up from $415,000. Very important if borrowing over $415,000+ in getting better rate.

2) If first time buyer you get a $7500 credit on your taxes if you are single and make under $75,000 and a couple $150,000. A little more to it but you can read up on it yourself.

3) If don't itemize, you can get $500 or $1000 depending on your status.

Take care.

Junkman... you never quite responded to the point... with all these huge new buildings you are bragging about right next door, how is that anything but a glut?

Eddie, that is a difficult question to answer. If you haven't noticed, I have a very parochial viewpoint regarding Downtown Brooklyn and the surrounding areas of Brooklyn Heights, DUMBO. Cobble Hill, Park Slope, Boerum Hill and Fort Greene. I think these areas are much more family and people oriented than Manhattan at this point in time. I'm thinking, if I realize it, being a born and bred Manhattanite, then others will realize it and move to Brooklyn for the better life. Manhattan is too crowded and way too expensive. There will be a point, and it is already happening, when people will want the Brooklyn lifestyle for half the price of Manhattan.

Maybe I'm thick, but I just don't understand the attraction of Manhattan. For $700 psf I feel I have a better quality of life than someone paying $1400 psf in Manhattan and in time I feel others will realize it and fill up all those tall buildings that are sprouting on the Flatbush corridor. Time will tell.

People love NYC and they all visit then decide they want to live here. If they can't afford Manhattan prices, Downtown Brooklyn the next best thing.

I'm weird but that is what I believe.

Take care.

"If you haven't noticed, I have a very parochial viewpoint regarding Downtown Brooklyn and the surrounding areas of Brooklyn Heights, DUMBO. Cobble Hill, Park Slope, Boerum Hill and Fort Greene. I think these areas are much more family and people oriented than Manhattan at this point in time."

Possibly... but the wrong side of Flatbush *definitely* not family oriented. And its not just the projects, its the fact that you have a superhighway between it and anything that matters. You think strollers are going to be crossing that one? You have to be kidding.

> I'm thinking, if I realize it, being a born and bred Manhattanite, then
> others will realize it and move to Brooklyn for the better life

Uh, you figured it out 3 months ago. The rest of the city has known for years, there is no one left to "figure it out". In fact, I suspect a Brooklyn backlash on its way...

> There will be a point, and it is already happening, when people will
> want the Brooklyn lifestyle for half the price of Manhattan.

Yes, its called several years ago. Its already been priced in, OVERpriced in specifically. It could easily turn th eother way around.

> someone paying $1400 psf in Manhattan

You can already buy for under $1000 psf in Manhattan. I've seen quite a few sales in relatively decent areas (all south of 96 of course) for under $900. And its on its way down. Next to that, paying $700 psf to be next to the projects in a marginal area sounds like a VERY poor investment.

> If they can't afford Manhattan prices, Downtown Brooklyn the next best thing.
And now that Manhattan is declining and Brooklyn has a glut, that means further drops in Brooklyn prices.

> Time will tell

It surely will.

Here is an article from the NY Times that may be of interest to Toren buyers considering this project, or lack of project, is right in our backyard, literally.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/brooklyn/2008/07/26/2008-07-26_myrtle_ave_condosupermarket_project_stal.html

Ha, ROTFL

Eddit, ROTFL to you too.

the reality is that Toren is right next to a gas station. Nothing more needs to be said, regardless of price increases or decreases

A couple of weeks ago I asked BrooklynLove, a knowledgeable blogger about Downtown Brooklyn, about the vacant parcels of land to the southeast of the Toren. Obviously, this area is extremely important when envisioning what the area immediately surrounding the Toren will look like in 5 years. You can read his response which created a topic onto itself on the Brownstoner website.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/07/guttman_corneri.php

What does this knowledgable blogger say about the projects right next door?

oh my goodness, just looking for a little info on downtown brooklyn and it is clear to me that this Junkman person is a broker....you should be ashamed dude. You speak just like one..

To junkman and EddieWilson, you've clearly monopolized this thread. Your posts are appreciated as long as it contains new info, facts or links. Pls do not repeat yourself if it is mere opinion. Your opinions are already clear to anyone researching/reading this thread. Let's hear from other people. thanks.

Here's a new one for the board regarding potential sound proofing. Does anyone have experience with "curtain wall" systems? Are they good with respect to sound proofing, better or worse than other forms of construction? Does anyone have reason to believe that this facade in particular will be effective at reducing noise from what we all know is a very busy street? Thanks.

I give up. I try to be helpful and informative and all I do is get grief. This is my last post about Toren. I don't post about Toren for enjoyment or get paid for it, just trying to be helpful to those interested in the Toren.

Wish I could say it was a pleasure but obviously it wasn't. Seamus and Co. hopefully you guys can provide info on the Toren and Downtown Brooklyn for those who have bought or are considering purchasing at the Toren.

Lastly, Seamus, to put me on the same level as Eddie Wilson as far as contributions to this thread is insulting.

We're closing on an apartment in University Towers (around the corner on Willoughby St) from Toren. To give some of my own thoughts: We looked at Toren, and when the 2bds were below $700K, thought it was an interesting option. Those quickly either sold out or got price increases though. For us, it seemed risky to have to wait out locking in mortgage rates and construction. When we compared to University Towers, we ended up choosing a 3bd barely over $600K. We get the same benefits of some long-term improvements in the area. Maintenance was also more "solid" as the building has been up and running for a long time and recently got a $5m influx of cash from selling air rights to the Red Apple development down Myrtle.

As for the variety of comments here, I just don't get why people can't admit that almost everything they admit is built into the prices. Yes, downtown has a way to go and has projects very nearby. But find me another 1200 sq ft, 3bd apartment within $100K of the price I paid in a better neighborhood? It just won't happen. Its about what you are able/willing to pay and what priorities are. We chose more space, more predictable costs and mortgage rates for lower price, and gave up nicer finishes, freedom of condo vs. coop ownership.

Junkman. I have appreciated all of your posts. Please continue.

Today I noticed that the Toren faces the loading dock of the Chase Metrotech building Junkman keeps mentioning. THAT is what I mean by wrong side of flatbush... its the service entrance to downtown Brooklyn....

If you need 3 BRs, your choices are limited. They have coops in LES with 3 BRs and they go for 800k and up. Condo, we're talking $2mm easy. Good find, bdeis01.

loading dock... service entrance... you're really trying hard to put down the building. When I walked by the area, I saw that the Metrotech "park" where there are trees and all leads straight onto Myrtle Avenue, which is where the lobby entrance of TOREN will be.

"Your posts are appreciated as long as it contains new info, facts or links. Pls do not repeat yourself if it is mere opinion. Your opinions are already clear to anyone researching/reading this thread."

Seamus, looking at your above post, where you present new info and facts about the western gateway to the Toren, I have a better appreciation of the quality of post that you desired.

Truth be told, you are apparently falling into the same trap as I, that being, responding to Eddie's nonsensical statements. We both agree that no one wants to be bothered with an email alert from the SteetEasy Toren for opinions that are totally irrelevant.

One bit of information that is relevant is the major construction taking place at 80 Dekalb with its 369 units of housing. If there was any doubt about Downtown Brooklyn being a 24/7 location in the future, strike it from your mind.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/07/80_dekalb_avenu.php

Also, concerning the Oro, those of us that follow the development happenings around the Toren are questioning what is happening with the Oro. Although the building appears to be near completion, they just don't appear to be in a rush to close the deal. One of the comments suggest the possibility of going rental. If this occurs, its impact on the Toren would be significant. Many of those signed contracts would probably consider the Toren as an option. MY guess is BFC is following this story with great interest.

http://www.brownstoner.com/forum/archives/2008/07/long_wait_at_or.php

I know I promised to stop writing but I couldn't resist a jab at Seamus when he provided such an easy target. lol

This is truly my last post. lol

ps

A friend is purchasing apt 301 and there appears to be a space/room contiguous to 301. She called and asked me if I knew what this space was. I don't have a floorplan but does anyone know what this space is? I know that BFC has an office on the 3rd floor and that was my best guess. She just wants to rest assured it isn't a huge garbage disposal. lol

Seamus, I was directly in front of the Toren, looking over at Metrotech, and the biggest thing directly across is the big metal service entrance garage doors. Thats the back of the building. Everything at metrotech was built to face inward (away from the projects, and now toren)

> This is truly my last post. lol

I'd say Hallelujah, but I don't believe it.

Junkman. Please reconsider your decision to stop posting. You have MANY fans on this blog.

> You have MANY fans on this blog.

And all but one are Junkman posting under another login.

and if you don't want to post on this board anymore there is always the toren google group

or gamblers anonymous.

One more note, I just came back from that disgusting neighborhood with the "BIG METAL SERVICE ENTRANCE WITH GARAGE DOOR" and happy to report I survived. Eddie has a point, in Manhattan there are no "BIG METAL SERVICE ENTRANCES WITH GARAGE DOORS". Manhattan has all their services for all those tall buildings done elsewhere. Another words, they have no delivery centers or service support. Pure heaven. Any deliveries are dropped off in Brooklyn where we have "BIG METAL SERVICE ENTRANCES WITH GARAGE DOORS".

why am I not surprised. The putz swears (twice) that he's not going to shill on this thread anymore, and here he is shilling again...

To actually address the point, the service entrances are at the BACK of buildings. 15 CPWs front entrance does not face a loading dock, the Plaza does not face a loading dock, hell, most of Manhattan does not face a loading dock. If buildings do, they're generally worth a lot less.

Why is it that individuals with diminished mental capacity, always resort to name calling. What is next? You going to insult my mother?

Junkman

I don't mind your posts and I to use to do a lot of research into Downtown Brooklyn's development and I enjoy your informative posts. It's just that it's overkill. I hope there won't be a backlash, well that might have already happened.

> Why is it that individuals with diminished mental capacity, always resort to name calling.

Wow, all that hypocrisy in just one little sentence!

ProperService,

I agree. Thanks for the constructive advice.

Junkman, some parts of my earlier post were for you, some parts were for Eddie Wilson. Don't be too defensive.

The front of Toren (its lobby) faces north onto the Avalon Bay development. It's western side faces the Metrotech bldg.The southern side of 15 CPW faces the loading dock of the Trump hotel-condo.

15 CPW is actually two buildings. It doesn't have much of a southern side, most of the south front is open space between the buildings.

And, I guess you don't know, but CPW stands for "Central Park West". Thats what both buildings are aimed to face. Toren gets to choose between flatbush ave and the back of metrotech, into someone else's bedroom, or over the projects.

Eddie, are you seriously suggesting that the presence of a loading dock in a class A commercial office building a couple hundred feet across a very wide street will have any bearing whatsoever on the success or failure of the building? All those reams of copy paper being delivered to Chase sure is gonna bring the nabe down! The Toren may have location problems, may be close to projects and far from amenities, but a loading dock at Chase? C'mon man.

No, I'm not. I'm just noting that JunkMan's shill claims that Toren is in a great neighborhood are just wrong... it faces the back of Metrotech from across the street, and the projects on the other side.

Its about as poor a neighborhood you can get....

Fellow Torenians,

Can we make a pack right now. Let's not respond to EddieWison's comments. I made this mistake numerous times and hurt the discussion group. Just put him on "ignore this person" by clicking on the left under his name. If you look at the LIC post, he has done the same thing and ruined that discussion also.

It almost seems that he justifies his existence by writing negative posts and responding to the defense of that post. He gets a rush from confrontation. Let's not feed this pathological need.

We all know that he will insult me after he reads this and let's not respond. Otherwise this discussion will be a source of aggravation and not a vehicle for intelligent discourse and knowledge about the Toren and Downtown Brooklyn.

Agree! Ignored.

Wow, talk about hypocrisy.

> If you look at the LIC post, he has done the same thing and ruined that discussion also.

First off, I *started* the thread. So complaining that I "ruined" it is quite crazy.

Second, no one has ruined more posts than JunkMan, filling this thing with marketing material after marketing material.

> vehicle for intelligent discourse

Don't kid yourself... posting marketing materials is not discourse.

Junkman. I'm in agreement.

For those who have not seen the latest pictures of the curtain wall - looking pretty good:

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/08/toren_really_sh.php#comments

I saw those pictures today. Definitely looks good.

The abuse I take.

> The abuse I take.

... is well deserved.

Latest data shows 55% of apartments in contract (including 42 affordable units), with prices only going up in every revision to the offering plan. Given the current adverse market conditions, that seems like pretty good performance to me.

Just came back from Toren sales office and felt I was at the Olympics in Beijing. Incredible response to Sundays NY Times article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/realestate/17cov.html?ref=realestate

It almost reminded me of what a good NY Times review for a restaurant can do for attendance that night. It was crowded, especially with potential purchasers of Chinese decent. Very impressive.

> Just came back from Toren sales office and felt I was at the Olympics in Beijing

Hmm... Beijing ended up being filled with smog, Americans got murdered, and then turns our the Chinese were lying (13 year olds anyone). Then the Americans got up and left.

Yes, that definitely does sound like the area around the Toren.

;-)

Damn, damn... I missed this one... oh, the best one... a bunch of empty buildings.

(Beijing is notorious for big buildings built right around the Forbidden City to impress foreign visitors, and many are completely empty decades later)

Eddie - why do you care so much? Seems strange that you spend all this time posting in a thread about a building for which you have such intense dismay. We get it - all people buying condos along fbx are misguided and you know better than them. no amount of development will change the immediate area in your view and the developers are taking everyone to lunch. yadayadayada.

so i'm curious, if/when you turn out to be wrong, will you have the balls enough to come back to this thread? or will you just slink off into cyberspace to troll a different discussion board?

Wrong about what? I was right about the crash... it has already begun, particularly in Brooklyn... A bunch of buildings next door have already cut prices - some more than 20% - and it looks like the Toren is even lying about sales figures. Streeteasy shows 1/3 sold, and they're claiming 50%. And they're not even mentioning that 15% (I believe that the numbers) are subsidized lower income housing.

But, if in this crash, turns out the numbers reverse and we have at least 10% appreciation off 2007 peak, absolutely, I'll be here to admit I'm wrong.

How do you know this? Where are you getting your information? Are you the broker shill? You sound like a broker shill trying to disuade people from purchasing in bklyn.

> How do you know this? Where are you getting your information?

Dude, read the post... "Streeteasy shows..."

Streeteasy shows 74 in contract and 16 in sales. There's also 42 below market value units (not subsidized lower income housing) in contract. They are not listed in Streeteasy because it was sold through NYC housing lottery. Do I need to do the math for you?

Sure, do it...

Just to get the facts totally accurate, in four plus months, the Toren has 75 market rate apartments in contract (74 listed plus mine which is included in sales total for some reason. The other sold apartments were taken off the market for strategic reasons). Added to this total are the lottery protected apartments which were sold totaling 42 apartments. 75+42=117 in contract which represents 48.75% of the total apartments in contract. By any barometer, this is an excellent result given the time period this building has been on the market. (After Sunday Times article, all bets are off.)

Why Eddie has to lump all condo developments in Downtown Brooklyn into one category is perplexing. Granted the housing market is in a downtown but to diminish the performance of the Toren sales figures by saying we are all fools who are buying at market top is not supported by the increased prices the Toren is getting via one amendment after another.

The amended prices are not just "asked" but they are selling at higher prices. It has become very apparent that the Toren's initial price structure was undervalued. This may be explained due to the status of "preconstruction". Now that the "curtain wall" is progressing, the buzz is increasing and the general public is taking notice. As the building progresses the buzz will increase. Couple the progression of the Toren with the erection of the Avalon Bay Luxury Condo's next door and the picture starts to look better still.

The icing on the cake will be the construction of City Point ( citypointnyc.com ) along with the Willoughby Square Park I was fortunate enough to get a look at the Toren's view from the 33rd floor looking west and it was incredible. You can see Downtown Manhattan skyline perfectly along with Brooklyn Bridge. There is no better view in all of NYC. If there are still apartments available facing this direction by the time it gets its certificate of occupancy they will be jumped on at current prices. The Toren is wise keeping these apartments off the market for the time being. I am absolutely positive that once building is completed, they will be able to jump the prices for these apartments considerably from current price structure.

Eddie, if you want to repeat your mantra that the sky is falling, that is fine, but please show some sign of discrimination and be cognizant of the winners and losers. Otherwise, you lose all credibility and look like you have no power of being able to discern what is working and what isn't. You got to do better than pointing out the "BIG METAL SERVICE ENTRANCES WITH GARAGE DOORS" on the other side, down the block on Flatbush Ext.

As my man Mark Jackson says "You are better than that".

One last note, the affordable apartments are anything but subsidized. The developer was able to work off a $168,000 base salary and priced apartments accordingly. A one bedroom on the 4th floor for $460,000 is anything but subsidized. Affordables went for an average of around $700 psf.

ps

Love the fact that BrooklynLove posted to thjs site. I'm a big fan of his and he knows Brooklyn Real Estate better than just about anybody. If he gives his kudos to the Toren, then we can all rest assured that we got in on a good thing.

"The other sold apartments were taken off the market for strategic reasons"

LOL.
Thats the funniest thing I've heard in a while...

Wait, you managed to beat it:
> There is no better view in all of NYC.

So, apparently you haven't been anywhere else in NYC.

And the building gets better by the minute, a good chunk of your neighbors are low income. Now THAT is what I call an investment!

> Couple the progression of the Toren with the erection of the Avalon Bay Luxury Condo's next door and
> the picture starts to look better still.

Adding to the glut is "better"?

Eddie,

Wait, you managed to beat it:
> There is no better view in all of NYC.

I lived in NYC my entire life of 50+ years. Tell me a better view than looking at downtown Manhattan and Brooklyn Bridge from the Brooklyn side at night. I need to be educated.

By coincidence, today I was at my friend's apartment at the Chelsea Landmark on 55 West 25th on the 34th floor. His view was great facing east with the Empire State and Chrysler Building to his left but not even close to the view of the Toren on the 33rd.

Call me an idiot but I do know NYC as well as anyone. Love the city and been around the block a few times. Say anything you want about me, but I know NYC.

To get back to the point, what is a better view,? The statue of Liberty from Battery Park? Central Park view is beautiful during the day but not much in the evening. I'll take looking at Downtown Manhattan and Brooklyn Bridge any day of the week. Also seen views of Manhattan and Bridge from One Main and It is gorgeous but not as good a perspective as you get from higher floors of Toren and dare I say, the Oro.

> I lived in NYC my entire life of 50+ years. Tell me a better view than looking at downtown Manhattan
> and Brooklyn Bridge from the Brooklyn side at night. I need to be educated

Well, you certainly just changed your tune. From better view "in all of NYC" to of specifically downtown and brooklyn bridge and brooklyn side. Hefty difference. In terms of $$$, its easily 5th ave / CPW. That is an expensive a view as you are going to get.

But, I'll even play your game. And the answer is pretty simple... go by where they film the opening shots of just that. Its from the Brooklyn Bridge Park... the view you'll see in photos, commercials, etc. It is *definitely* not the view up the manhattan bridge entrance... and definitely not several blocks down flatbush.

Sorry, to be more specific, the angle from about the end of Main Street at the east river.

so, you tried to pick the best view in manhattan and came up with *chelsea*? really?

Eddie, you live in Brooklyn, right. Go to the Oro sales office and ask for a tour of an apartment facing west over the 30th floor. This is as good as it gets. CPW is great. I'd live there in a second but it can be debated whether it is a better view. Your paying for the proximity to the park and everything else that goes with living on Central Park west or Fifth Avenue.

I'm talking view only. You don't get the panoramic view of the city as you do from the Oro or Toren. Another words, a postcard of the Oro/Toren view would outsell a postcard of One Main's view and even 5th Avenue's view of the Central Park. Again, I'm talking views only. You and I both know the views from the Oro and Toren encompass all of Downtown Manhattan and Brooklyn Bridge facing west. Not talking view of Manhattan Bridge. Go to Oro and go up to 35th floor and then you will be speaking from experience.

> a postcard of the Oro/Toren view would outsell a postcard of One Main's view

All evidence to the contrary.

So, now its height you want... then just take the top floors of jcondo or beacon. Same height, but closer to the water, and better angles, not looking at manhattan bridge. And no buildings in the way (there isn't anything in front of them that they aren't significantly bigger than). And I know the Hanson view fairly well (pre anything bigger put in the way).

Hell, I think you'd do better even going to the brooklyn heights buildings at that point. And I think the lower manhattan stuff starts to make a claim as well.

And, even you pointed out that there is a jumble of buildings up there. All overlooking the projects...

> sorry, I meant "not looking at manhattan bridge entrance point"

Eddie - are you 2 years old, retarded or both?

what crash in brooklyn?
maybe you have better info than this:
http://www.prudentialelliman.com/NYCPhotos/retail_reports/BMO_2Q08.pdf
http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/07/miller_samuel_r.php

let me guess - you're going to tell us how the reports don't reflect what's actually happening and then point to a few examples as evidence of an entirely different data set.

Idiot, you should read what you post...

"The number of sales was down 43.6 percent from the second quarter in '07."

And, if you looked at the entire brooklyn reports, you'd see that sales prices are down...

More importantly, for the exact neighborhood in question (not sure why you are pointing at BROWNSTONE prices as evidence of condo glut...)

http://curbed.com/archives/2008/07/02/curbed_pricechopper_the_rest_of_the_fort_again.php

> let me guess - you're going to tell us how the reports don't reflect what's actually happening and
> then point to a few examples as evidence of an entirely different data set.

No, I'm going to tell you that you can't read.

Don't insult others when you are the biggest idiot on the board.

Hmm, more people think Eddie Wilson is an unintelligent jackass. Interesting . . .

What kind of job/life does EW have that allows him to post 500 times throughout the day? hmmm...