What constitutes a pied de terre?

you would be a pied a terre (most likely). I don't know what the "official" definition is other than it would be your second home. I suspect every co-op board has its own set of rules. The idea is to prevent people buying into a building and then renting it out to a bunch of yahoos who will treat the place like, well, a rental. This generally goes a long with the "no subletting, no parents buying for children" rule (same reason). For some buyers (like me), co-ops that take any of the above are less desirable. These buildings appeal more to investors, parents buying for kids....

If you do not rent it, but only use it personally, but do not live there 365 days a year, is that still a pied de terre? Not trying to argue the point, just trying to get clarity. Thanks for your response.

I believe the general definition of "pied a terre" is a unit that is not a "primary residence". Usually means a smaller unit (ie not a three bedroom).

If you live there half of the year and NYC is your home (voter registration, driver licenses, business are in NYC) but you happen to travel a lot outside of NYC, then you don't fit the classical definition.

However, if you live in say Philly half the year and your voter registration, driver licenses, business are in Philly but you get into NYC whenever you can, you would be in the pied a terre category.

Calls for some subjective analysis.

Coops generally frown on anyone buying a place when it is not their primary residence. Condos on the other hand don't care as long as your finances are in order.

Pied a terre is french for 'foot of earth' & is a residence that you only use occasionally. I don't know if there is a legal definition; I suspect that each co-op may have somewhat different rules. It isn't an investment property in that you'll be renting it out, it may just be used by you & extended family for business & visits to the city. I suspect the co-op just doesn't want an empty building with units only used a few weeks every few months. Anybody on a co-op board who can enlighten us?

Generally, I believe that if you are not using it as a primary residence, it could be considered a pied de terre. The term non-primary residence generally means occupied for under 183 days in a year except for periods of temporary relocation (ie. if you have to care for your mother in California for a year - this wouldn't count against you). Of course, I believe that coops are free to come up with their own definition of pied de terre, so you really need to look at the individual coop rules to determine if your intended occupancy would be prohibited.

There is no hard and fast rule, but rather a case by case situation.

I would also point out that there are a lot of NYC snowbirds who spend the cold months in a warmer climate. Given your intended use as described above, you may want to position it that way -- this will be your primary place, but you intend to retain a warm weather second home.

My understanding is that the idea is to have residents who are committed to living in the building.
Pied-a-terre owners generally use the place as a second home or weekend retreat. Therefore if someone needs to access your apt for maintenance (i.e. replacing airconditioner filters) or other matters (you left your bathroom faucet on and as a result water's been dripping onto your neighbor below), they'll know you're around.

The presumption is that people treat their primary residence with more pride than a secondary one.

Generally the term pied a terre is understood to mean that the unit will not be your primary residence. It is not, however, a legal term of art that has a standard legal definition. If a building does not allow pied a terres, ask your agent or the seller's agent to inquire and provide you with a precise definition of what the particular building means by that rule. Any attempts to more narrowly define the term here will unlikely be of any use since it is a subjective term that readily can be interpreted differently from one building to the next.

From a real estate agent:

The co-op board is going to ask you -- in your application package and possibly again in your interview -- if the apartment is going to be your primary residence.

If it's not -- and in your case it's clearly not -- it's not worth trying subterfuge. You do not sound, say, like you are moving to Manhattan but are going to spend the summer in East Hampton. If your intention is to spend half the year elsewhere, or even close to that, you're not the neighbor that a non-pied-a-terre co-op board wants.

It isn't about whether you'll treat the apartment well in your absence, it's about the quality of life in the building. I live in a condo now, and my neighbors on my left are gone on weekends and my neighbors on my right are gone during the week. It's a different, and less pleasant, living experience than residing in a co-op where the chances are that someone is next door if you want to borrow a cup of sugar.

Don't waste your time making up stories about how you're going to relocate if you don't intend to. There are enough co-ops that do allow pied-a-terres -- yes really -- that it is easier to just find one of those.

And of course, if you don't have a buyers' agent I'll be happy to help you.

I work roughly Battery Park to Central Park, and can refer you if you want to be on the Upper West or Upper East sides.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Not an attorney, but this is a legal issue. There is only one way to determine it: is this LEGALLY your primary residence or not? What is the proof of legal residence? As one person said, voter registration. And this is not about the quality of life in the building... It's simply about the CoOp's rules and regulations - like a home owners association - if they allow part-timers, then it defeats the purpose of what the CoOp was created for, which was likely to keep market values manageable.

Make this your primary residence, if you want in bad enough, and keep your other residence as your second home... otherwise, don't waste your or the co-op's time.

I wonder what NYCRENewbie ultimately bought and if is is considered a pied a terre.

@GB - Really? I am relatively ignorant on many subjects, but as attorney who is fluent in French, I would never have wondered about the meaning of that phrase, much less gotten the basic phrase wrong in the question. Pull it together.

Just an unfrozen caveman lawyer.