About to sign a contract

...Also I'm paying $458 per sq foot for an hdfc in harlem. it seems like a good, stable building and it's close to the border of manhattan valley and a block from the b/c subway, but it' doesnt have any views. does that price sound about right?

Sounds like you have done lots of research. It won't be Perfect, but enjoy. Have some champagne. Congrats on new purchase!

It's your money. Get whatever inspections you feel are necessary to make you comfortable. I'd want to know the income cap; it is ridiculous that you haven't already gotten that info. I'd also want to know any details about the neighboring building, but that may be harder to uncover. Unless the lot is directly adjacent to yours it won't likely be a terrible problem if/when it is developed.

As for who is living upstairs, your broker legally cannot go into that with you per fair housing rules. You could ask around and see if the neighbors can offer any info. You could also visit the apartment on a week evening when most folks are home and making whatever noise they make.

I bought my first property over 30 years ago. Didn't sleep for days after signing the contract. It was waterfront property on Cape Cod and changed my families life as well as being a great investment.
If building on the empty lot won't change your views don't worry about it. A new condo on the site will increase your apt value. You have no control over who lives above you. Typical income limits for an apt in South Harlem are $69,750 for 1 person; $79,725 for 2; $89,700 for 3; $99,600 for 4; $107,625 for 5; $115,575 for 6; $123,525 for 7 in a household. Income limits always increase with time but most HDFCs have a 30% flip tax on profits. $458 psf is OK if this is a renovated apt not for a wreck. Note that HDFC apts are among the few that list true (not inflated) square footage.
Also remember, you're buying an HDFC for your children and grandchildren. With the flip taxes it will be 30 years (or whatever the length of the HDFC - your broker will know that) before you will make a handsome profit. I love this area of Harlem by the way.

Thank you for all these very informative responses (and the encouragement!)
Squid - Thanks for the advice about visiting the unit. I've been back a few times but no one is ever outside. The neighboring building is not on the same street officially but it shares the lot in back. As a rear-facing 2nd story dweller, construction work could be 20 feet away, not to mention fumes trapped in the narrow courtyard.
I've been able to check here:
http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/bsqpm01.jsp
If the permits and violations tell a story, it looks as if it's been a vacant lot for 10 plus years while the owners keep getting their permits rejected to build a 5-story condo building. Would that be an issue for anyone else?

Harlembuyer - the apartment is "renovated" by HDFC standards, which don't maximize light. I'll probably end up putting around 35k into it, and possibly something for soundproofing. It'll probably end up being around $515 when I'm done with it. (The sq footage for that figure is based on my architect friends' calculation. The listing itself inflates around 50 sq ft.) Do you think that's high?

I honestly don't know if I'll be there for generations. It could happen I guess. Flip taxes I know are the standard 30% and the definition of deducted original price doesn't include money spent for improvements. I would actually be fine with the apartment preserving my capital investment when or if I have to sell it, going up just enough so I don't lose out on the renovation cost. It's a young HDFC bldg, so I'm not buying it looking forward to it going market. But I hope I'm not in for any big losses if or when that time comes.

Also - and I hope this doesn't sound ridiculous for a 600 sq ft 2 bed - I'm actually considering adding a bathroom. I need a roommate to be able to sustain and it seems like 2 ensuite situations would make that much more pleasant. Thoughts on that?

Thanks again! It really helps to get all this knowledgeable input.

Don't assume that you will be even allowed to put in another bathroom. Boards don't like wet over dry and how are you going to run the pipes there. Even if approved a new bath can easily run you 60k. Many HDFC coops require board approval for roommates (in court that may or may not be enforceable).

----Squid - Thanks for the advice about visiting the unit. I've been back a few times but no one is ever outside.----

What I meant was to have the broker allow you access to the unit sometime in the after work/evening hours to see what kind of noise may come from above. Not a fool-proof solution, since you may just catch an off-day when no one is at home but a pretty good bet that if there are kids/dogs/people who are prone to making racket upstairs evenings are when they'd be home.

Agreed on the second bathroom comment. It's typically unlikely to get a board to approve a bathroom (wet) over someone else's dry spaces (referred to as wet over dry). Also consider that changing floorplans in a building is often a signficant project- unless of course the walls are non-load bearing. Harlembuyers comments are close enough to give you guidance. As mentioned, the income limits can increase- though the numbers Harlembuyer provided are 2012 numbers rather than 2013 figures (which are a few thousand $ higher)- at 120% of the AMI- though obviously close enough to provide guidance.

Also worth noting, While the HDFC restrictions expire after x years (typically 30 years), and have the opportunity to go market value- it's pretty unusual for a building to do so. HDFC's get tax breaks and other benefits- so giving up the status would require the maintenance to rise considerably. I am seen some HDFC's that rather than going that route- make some changes to the bylaws- effectively bypassing some restrictions. An example would be to keep the income restriction, but to allow some deductions such as student loans to reduce your net income or to change the income restriction to be more of an affordibility restriction (i.e. a complicated formula that effectively doesn't allow you to borrow more than 3 times your annual income).

It's probable that you won't be allowed to bring in roommate(s). You should find out for sure ASAP; especially, since your ability to "sustain" will be predicated on such an arrangement.

For someone who's about to sign a contract, you've got an awful lot of unanswered questions. WRT that vacant lot out back, I'd assume that they are going to be building that 5-story building sooner than later. There will be all the attendant noise, dust, etc & then you'll be at the bottom of a 5-story light well & you're already complaining that the light in the unit isn't maximum. Proceed with caution, my friend.

drdrd is right.

I also didn't like the sentence that says you need a room mate to afford this place. Does your lender think so too?

Thanks, this is all super helpful.

kharby2 - It was probably an overstatement. I actually don't *need* the roommate to get by. But it definitely would take the pressure off.
Sunny D - My understanding so far is that roommates are allowed. But that's something else I need to confirm. thanks.

harlebuyer and semerun - The bathroom idea is not essential but would be nice. There's actually a kind of useless hallway right next to the existing bathroom that is big enough for that. I'm working with a friend's contractor who has estimated for everything but the bathroom. I'll call him and ask him what he thinks asap. I should have thought of it.

Squid - yes, I've been trying to get back in for more visits, but it hasn't been super easy to do so.

drdrd - The light in the unit is actually very good even though it faces back. The lot is two buildings down and across a court. I'm mostly worried about the construction period itself. I asked a friend who is an architect who saw the place with me whether he thought the building would block light. He didn't think so. I hope he's right.

All of these thoughts are very welcome. If you have more, please keep them coming.

...And I'm also calling again to find out about "wet over dry." Learning the vocab helps too...

http://harlembespoke.blogspot.com/ You may or may not find something here but, again, it just seems that there's so much you don't know. I'd take it slow before I put pen to paper. Besides hanging around the building & meeting the neighbors, I'd be scouring that 'hood & talking to anybody & everybody in hopes of picking up intel. Also, feeling pressure to meet your monthlies: is that really how you want to live? Things always get more expensive, not less.

I love Harlem Bespoke- such a valuable source of information. If you are buying in Harlem- this is one of the best sources of Harlem related developments- residential and commercial around.

Thanks for the link.
Lol the only way I would not feel pressures regarding monthlies would be if I moved to a different city altogether. These things are too complicated to describe here. I have actually owned in a co-op before, just not in this city, and not post-'bubble.'

This could be a dealkiller in terms of blocked light. What I'm looking at is on 111.
http://harlemtrends.com/2013/01/new-harlem-condominium-going-up-240-manhattan-avenue-at-110th-street/

Btw, any ideas about what's happening with that lot at 2040 FDB? Seems like after a spike in info in Aug and Dec, the line went dead.

Oops...not "lot" - I mean gas station. Yikes! that's a seriously callous mistake on my part.

A few thoughts on your situation.

1. The general area where you are considering is quite nice and I think you will like the neighborhood.
2. You are very close to all the shops and restaurants that are coming up on FDB between 110th and 125th.
3. The blocked-light concern from 240 Manhattan Ave will not be too major a concern, as you are one block over.
4. The noise and dust from the new condo construction on your block will be a concern, so it is up to you.
5. Don't sign the contract until you are comfortable with all the details, you have the right to ask any questions of both brokers and attorneys. Sometimes people can be less than responsive, in which case you should explain to them nicely that it is important to you to understand, hence all the questions, they should understand.
6. The boarded up building on 111th is curious, and it has been that way for years, so perhaps it is worth some investigations.
7. If you are satisfied with #4 and #5, then I think you should feel confident about the purchase.
8. Who knows what will become of 2040 FDB, but it will likely take a long while to evolve, so don't worry about that for now.

Let me know if you have other questions. Happy to write you privately if you post an email address where I can reach you.

>>"It's probable that you won't be allowed to bring in roommate(s). You should find out for sure ASAP;"

This has been discussed before. It is not up to the co-op whether or not you are "allowed" to have roommates. You are allowed a roommate, as per NYS law. Once you've moved in, this is not something a co-op board can disallow or bar you from.

Unless the apartment is on the ground floor you need to assume you will NOT be permitted to install a second bathroom per wet-over-dry rules, which are pretty strict in most buildings. After all, no one wants the upstairs neighbor's tub or toilet overflowing into their living room. The only possible exception might be if the existing bathroom is large enough to split into two separate bathrooms, which would keep wet over wet.

OP: This is likely the largest purchase you will ever make. While Streateasy can be a great sounding board you should be getting the answers to your questions from the parties involved. Also, I would not think twice about asking to visit the apartment at different times of day to try to get a sense of the noise from above (as others suggested above). I'd also make sure there is an 80% carpet rule if you are concerned about sound from above.

FWIW the condo on 110 is calling itself One Morningside Park http://www.onemorningsidepark.com/ and starting prices are, wait for it, $1300psf! In Harlem!

gelleresque: Bernie123 is correct. You need to discuss all of these issues with the parties involved and not rely too heavily on streeteasy posters. Having said that, you should also make sure the contract contains a mortgage contingency. Good luck!

You're in for $515k after renovations for a 600 sq ft HDFC building in South Harlem? Am i the only one that thinks that sounds expensive???? At this rate $515k should be able to get you a new construction 600 sq ft condo in Brownstone Brooklyn -- i'm not familiar with the South Harlem market, and maybe you love love love the neighborhood, but it seems to me that for all the restrictions of an HDFC buy (and the potential neighbor issues -- i've lived in HDFC as well as condo buildings that have been converting from rent-stabilized buildings with mixed tenants) this seems overpriced.

The sq footage may be throwing me off, because i'm thinking of an avg 600 sq ft new condo, which obviously is not the same thing as "real" 600 sq ft, but still. I'd be wary. If you told me it was 600 sq ft and HDFC in the west village for $515k, then yes, jump on it... but South Harlem?

Thanks for all this. I'm in a work crunch and won't be able to fully respond until tonight. Don't worry I'm not relying on this board as a last word. I'm using it as a way to get more thorough with stuff I haven't thought of, and then bringing it to the attention of brokers. I'm going over there tonight too so hopefully the seller will be obliging about information. The $515 number is *per sq foot* after the reno, not the actual price of the unit. the whole project should end up costing me around 315k at the very most.

Please feel free to contact me if you have questions - I have HDFC experience.

maybe I dont understand as I havent looked in this area for years, but if you qualify for HDFC, why wouldnt you just buy from UHAB at super cheap prices?? I understand NEW HDFC builds are limited, but theyre still there vs paying in somce cases 8X over for an HDFC resale??

I am not a broker basher, BUT I'd caution against believing everything a broker tells you; their job is getting the deal done, after all. Trust but verify. "I was told . . ." doesn't mean %$@*.

Even if it were possible to put in that 2nd bathroom, have you any idea what that would cost? This is a low-cost apartment & that 2nd bathroom is an expensive indulgence for which you very well may not get the money back on resale. Your market will be low-income people, no? This is sounding screwier & screwier, I think.

You will NOT win a wet-over-dry request. As mentioned before, if you live over other tenants you will NOT be permitted to put in a bathroom where none existed before. Period. This is not something that can just be written into a sales contract as a contingency. First--no sane seller would go for that. Second-- even if it WERE somehow agreed upon in the contract, the contract is between you and the seller, not the building itself. So the building could (and would) still say no.

Re: noise--sound-proofing is quite pricey. What did the seller mean by 'echo chamber'? Did you ask here to explain?

almost $1K PSF in Harlem and HDFC, that's just complete stupidity.

Gelleresque--

I have a different take on all this. To me, as a very happy recent purchaser of an HDFC coop apt in Hamilton Heights, it only makes sense to buy an HDFC apt if you are thinking "home" more than "investment." If you can afford to buy it and have the mortgage, then you shouldn't need a room mate. But, you shouldn't be buying it if you don't think you'd like to live there for quite a while into the future. You have to be sure.

It's hard to get fast answers from HDFC buildings about a lot of things, and that doesn't necessarily man things are bad or wrong. There just seems to be a culture of slow response. This can be maddening when you're trying to buy a place. You should easily be able to find out what the income caps are for your particular building, however. They vary a lot from building to building. As for noise, who knows? That is something no one can really control in an apartment building. Neighbors come and go, and one person;s outrageous noise nuisance is another's no big deal. I have heard that flip taxes can come and go, too, over the life of a building's movement out of the HDFC program. But putting in bathrooms--that one isn't going to change. Don't buy this apartment if it doesn't have the right bathrooms in place for your purposes now!

Buying an apartment is (or should be) a joyous milestone in life. Buying an HDFC apartment is getting to benefit from a worthy and effective government program which serves many purposes to improve life in our city. So, hooray for that, and congratulations to you!

I don't know this situation, but I've been in empty apartments that could be described as echo chambers because there were no sofas/beds/carpets to absorb sound.

Thanks for the congrats here and at the beginning.

I suppose it's hard to convey the subtlety of trying to uncover the realistic limits of the space (ie whether "wet over dry" or roommates is possible) without making those questions sound like ultimatums. I'm not sure if I made this clear, but I wasn't fixated on having a second bath or a roommate even if the stars aligned and they were both possible. But either way, I think the thread has now spoken on these points so the continuing referendum is not that useful, unless someone expresses a different point. Thanks.

I don't see how one comes up with 1k psf. I've done the math on here a few times and never get close to that. I would be working with the contractor to do a reno that fits a particular budget.

I definitely plan on it as "home." Noise has a lot to do with building construction. Right now i'm in a building with neighbors next door and above and I can't hear anything except the shower plumbing. 3 months ago I lived in a building where I could hear the neighbor walking around and hitting his dog. Again, since this a much longer and deeper commitment than an apt rental, I'm getting the parameters for realism, nothing beyond.

I already know that this building is fast with responses, well organized, and yes, the echo chamber does have quite a bit of furniture in it right now.

I thank you all again for your comments, and the help I've received for distilling my concerns so that I can get responses from others. But I'm not sure I need to continue this thread. I don't want to give out anymore personal details. If I don't write in again, please don't take it personally.
Best wishes.

sorry, saw the $515K. you have to expect that the reno will go at least 20% over budget, so you're closer to $530 psf. a 600 sq ft 1 bedroom is a small place, i've seen studios bigger. having 2 bedrooms, seems like you'll have walk in closets for bedrooms.

I think I'm actually fine on all these small questions. But I have one nagging one:
Why doesn't due diligence include a basic evaluation of the structure and foundation? I'm buying shares in a building. I don't want to find out that it has some major weakness.We live in an era of floods and natural disasters. Just because there's nothing in the minutes and no violations doesn't mean that the building structure is solid, right? It just seems so basic.

But am I about to wreck my status with the board by asking about this? What if I end up needing an engineering report? And if so, what is the best (fastest) way of going about getting one?

An engineering report for the building is very expensive. My building has less than 20 apartments and we spent something along the lines of 14k for an engineers evaluation of the structure and building systems. It's a lengthy and expensive process. You should ask about deferred or planned maintenance from the managing agent without worrying about wrecking your status with the board- if for no other reason than you want to be able to financially plan for needed future expenditures.

Right, makes sense. I don't know that I actually need the entire report. I'm pretty satisfied that things like wiring and boiler are in acceptable condition, due to a recent building-wide reno. I would just like someone to look at the actual physical entity itself. If the conversion to HDFC would have included that, and a careening, cracked or otherwise unstable building would have prohibited the city's conversion from taking place, that would be enough positive evidence for me to stop worrying about it. I actually wrote to the attorney for confirmation of that, but she didn't get back to me.