Soho/ NYC Economy - observation

How often do you leave your gated UES community, joepa?

SoHo has (on saturday afternoons) turned into the largest shopping mall in New Jersey - and has been like this for at least five years. In addition, SoHo residential real estate has been heavily foreign owned for at least 10 years. It's been the defacto preferred location for moneyed hip euro-new yorkers for a VERY long time.

As for the whole '(insert name of favorite NY real estate neighborhod here) is losing its charm because of over-gentrification,' that's always been a very boring argument. NY neighborhoods constantly evolve, shift, and change over time. It's a fluid process - no neighborhood in NY has maintained the same constituency over a prolonged period. That's what makes Manhattan great in the first place.

I'll admit that I don't get out as much as I would like - family life and work take its toll, but I have been down to Soho on many Saturdays over the last 5 years and it was never as bad as it was yesterday. For you to imply that my view is sheltered, is just uncalled for.

As for the over-gentrification comment - it wasn't an argument but a question. Nonetheless, imho, if this is Soho's "evolution" (as you claim) it is sad to see from my point of view.

I'll add to Malvauxs comments, though not his tone, in response to joepa.
Ive lved in Manhattan for the past 21 years, and would say that Soho on summer/spring weekends is more crowded than any other area of Manhattan save Times Square. I have noticed this since the late 90's, and it has acclerated in the last five years. Also have to disagree about the comment that 'no neighborhood has maintained the same constituency over a prolonged period of time.'
What about the Upper East Side/gold coast?

joepa: I've lived in NoHo for 8 years and visit SoHo almost every weekend to do everything from go to the post office to shop to dine and, yes, in the last few months it seems particularly crowded with foreign tourists just as you describe. It is definitely less pleasant to go into SoHo these days as a local. It is still fairly quiet in the evenings though.

I would also say that Soho has been overrun by B&T folks and tourists (same thing?) for a number of years now on weekends. I first saw this in the early/mid 90s, but now its quite unbearable (to me), and I avoid it whenever I can on weekend days. Unfortunately, the weekend scene in the WV and Meatpacking areas are reminding me of Soho in those early/mid 90s. I hope that this doesn't mean that the WV and Meatpacking areas get similarly overrun in the next several years.

"...Also have to disagree about the comment that 'no neighborhood has maintained the same constituency over a prolonged period of time. What about the Upper East Side/gold coast?..."

Relly? Were there African Americans buying townhouses on the UES with the same rapidity in the 60's that rappers and movie moguls do now? Buildings like 740 Park, who once had a 'jewish quota' (for lack of a better term) are now majority owned by jewish folks (not a religious commentary - just an observation). Less and less do most of these buildings have to do with who you are, but rather with the fact that you're just plain wealthy, period. Yes, there are still 'Daughters of the American Revolution'-style holdouts, but in general, the UES has changed quite a bit over the past quarter century, I'd say, in terms of who has access. I'd say that Spike Lee leaving his Brooklyn 'hood and buying Jasper John's UES townhouse a number of years ago officially signaled this shift loud and clear.

KISS, I think the Meatpacking district has already lost that race. I've never been to the Jersey shore, but I imagine its like the Meatpacking district on a Friday night.

Since we've left SOHO...

There's still a lot I love about the East Village, but on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights, the neighborhood is now packed with people who remind me of the idiots I fled Long Island to get away from.

There was a period during Giuliani/Bratton, when the dealers were literally chased off my doorstep, and I thought "This is great, but how long until the safety turns to homogenization and the neighborhood starts losing some of it's charm?" There were a few years of what I thought was perfect balance, and now, at least to me, the scale has definitely tipped towards tame and boring.

My mother has a friend who grew up in the 50s two blocks from where I live now, in one of those "cold-water flats" of lore that her grandmother rented for $8/month. I'm just another in a long line of people complaining about their changing neighborhood.

So are you intimating that the "foreigners" are economically beneficial or bringing down the neighborhood?

I do not think aspects of this thread speak very well of the StreetEasy community.

Tony,

Not foreigners, but tourists. NYC is well known for its international makeup, and part of what makes it such a great city.

Rather, it's tourists -- who could be just as easily be from the US -- who tend to frequent certain areas. Certainly Times Sq, Rock Ctr or the Met are to be expected. Probably less so in our residential areas

If you've been to Paris or other touristy destinations, you can sometimes sense a similar feeling from locals. French friends of mine make the same observations about their Parisian brethren.

Tony - How you could take anything that I said in a discriminatory fashion is beyond me. Foreign tourism is clearly good for the economy, as for bringing down the neighborhood, I never intimated any such thing. As KISS correctly took the post, I merely opined that the influx of mass tourism into these traditionally charming neighborhoods has been sad - it has nothing to do with foreigners per se.

The Dollar is weaker than it has ever been this summer. Tourism will be overwhelming. However, the US economy will recover, although this will not be soon, as regulations placed on the consumer suffocate purchasing power, the credit cycle will experience the largest post war contraction that we've seen in order to counter the largest expansion that we recently experienced. As the US economy recovers and the Fed raises rates at a record pace in order to stem inflation, Euro will quickly flow back into the dollar, and the dollar will strengthen at a breakneck pace. This resulting unwinding by Europeans of the Manhattan Condo Trade will reverse the current condition.

However, this is the most interesting thread I've read on Streeteasy, as it is the first I've seen that addresses the gentrification issue. Much of what brought many of us here in the first place does not even exist anymore. Do I want to walk down the street and see a Chase, a Circuit City, a Best Buy, a Barnes & Nobles, and an Applebees, I could move to Atlanta and have nice weather, or Miami and have no income taxes and nice weather and a 360 degree view on the water in a Penthouse for the same price as a 2 bedroom here.

The bigger question than "does it make more sense to rent than it does to buy", when both are overpriced, seems to be: "does it make sense to even waste time considering either?"

Take out "foreigners" and insert blacks, Jews, asians or French, and see how charming it sounds.

It's a free country and you can blog whatever you want to, but I know a distasteful thread when I see one.

You didn't just say there were a lot of foreign tourists. You said this made visits to Soho unpleasant.

As a naturalized citizen, I find it distasteful. I was once one of those foreign tourists.

Oh Tony, get over yourself.

Tony, are you the same person from the other thread who said (when someone had mentioned projects): "there's no need to call them projects."?????
Or is there just something in the water lately?

Tony,

Like you, I am a naturalized citizen. I did not take joepa's comments the way you did.

No, I wasn't on that thread, poorishlady.

Dmag, maybe you should go to a hotter climate.

So anytime that someone has mentioned on this board that foreigners are keeping the real estate market inflated or have been taking advantage of the weak dollar they are racist or xenophobic? I didn't say foreign tourists made Soho unpleasant. I made 2 comments. 1) That there appears to be an influx of foreign tourism and 2) That the increased crowds make Soho unpleasant. You chose to equate that to "foreigners make Soho unpleasant." If you take a logic course, you will see that 1 + 2 does not equate to your conclusion.

I explained my post, I have no prejudice against foreigners - if you still seek to take it as a racist comment, there is nothing more I can do.

Just replace "foreigners" with "meatheads". Meatheads can be any race, religion, nationality, or sex so it is less contentious. Meatheads are bringing Manhattan neighborhoods down and their favorite place to hang out is the Meatpacking District. Better?

Bovinephobe!

Tony, how can you equate the infestation by Citibank and other banks, obscenely huge and ugly consumer chains and loss of interesting business with foreign tourists? I'm a naturalized citizen as are probably 85% of posters here, and for the life of me I don't see your point. I believe you just get inflamed spontaneously and then look for a bone to pick.

Well put, JuiceMan, except that the meathead guys who are hoping to pick up girls with tattoos instead of Sex and the City types are coming to the East Village.

Regularly heard under my window at 3am:

"Dude! No way! What the fuck?! DOOOOOOOOOOOD!!!"

I won't describe what happens to meatheads of both genders (occasionally on my doorstep) when their night of binge drinking doesn't end as planned.

Seriously, thanks to all who stood up for Joepa's post. The excessively-PC/looking-for-insults-that-aren't-there thing that crops up around here every now and then is really annoying and counterproductive.

Yes tenemental, I know exactly what you mean. The EV is way cooler on a Wednesday night than a Friday night for that reason.

I usually go out during the week for these reasons exactly. Stick to dinner and movies on weekends.

Although in terms of being annoyed by bar-hoppers, I think that the smoking ban has made things a lot worse. It's tough to stop idiots from randomly yelling in the street in the middle of the night, but if you live very close to a bar, the congregation of smokers chattering outside can drive one insane.

Also - I actually think the EV is still as shielded as a neighborhood can get from bridge and tunnel, especially in the parts without easy subway access. The scourge of NYU students, on the other hand...

My only take-away from all this is that Manhattan is continuing to boom and benefit from foreign visitors. As I have said before, our best days our ahead of us. (Gee, hope poorishlady doesn't see me quoting Reagan again. You know, we sunny, optimistic Clintonian liberals are doing it a lot these days, sometimes without even knowing it. Hope our heirs don't quote W, though.)

I live in the South Street Seaport, and it is very difficult to hang out around my neighborhood without hearing German, French, and Russian. In fact, I get stopped once a day to give directions to some person with poor English, thanks to Mr. Bloomberg's "Ask A Local" advertising. Its getting very tedious. I happily escape to Jackson Heights, where I can hear some Punjabi and Tagalog for a change.

Yeah right, this is just about people not liking crowds.

One person makes a questionable post and you make a broad mis-generalization as to what this entire thread is about? Aren't such generalizations exactly what you are protesting about? There are a dozen people here who did not find the thread discriminatory in the least. If you have a remark toward bluerain's post, direct it at him. Don't lump me and the entire thread in with it to prove a point that doesn't exist. Enough.

I apologize to everyone who is not a racist or xenephobe.

The lady doth protest too much.

bluerain, I hate that damn campaign. I'm happy to help, whether you're from Zurich, Tangier or Jersey, but the idea that my mayor has already volunteered my services pisses me off.