Fees-Architect/Interior Designer

Oh--go to Brownstoner.com for rousing and amusing discussions on this topic. I do flate rate.

They are two different entities. Usually decent designers use their own trusted contractors/architects, and those people deal with subcontractors for specialty jobs. Designers who are worth their salt do not usually work per hour. You can compare estimates depending on a project. Fixtures and appliances: you can buy them yourself if you want savings. The whole for a designer/contractor's discount is to make profit. A reputable designer will direct you toward the sources, if you chose.

I recently gut-renovates 2-bd UWS apaprtment, electric and everything. Look at around $170000.

I had a designer who handled both the architecture and interior design. Although not a licensed architect the designer came up with the concept and had sub contracted for a licensed architect to prepare and stamp the plans.

Architecture was at an hourly rate. Fixture selection was included in this scope and I paid cost for the fixtures with selection time billed on a per hour basis.

Interior design was billed at an hourly rate plus a markup on the furniture the designer purchased.

Designer does not have to be licenced. And I personally don't like a designer to sell things, be it fixtures or appliances or furniture.
The designer I used produced (after talking to me for a few hours) a drawing so detailed (measurements) and realistic that, after my approval, it was given to the architect/contractor for implementation. I also wanted some unusual appliances and was given info on how to get them.

stakan, what sort of unusual appliances?

stakan, was $170,000 the cost of the designer or the total project?

oh god. i hope $170K isn't the design fee.

Def. the total project. I did a 1200 sq ft place on the UWS (sounds similar in scale to his) for about 140,000. Electric was the bitch since it was cut in through plaster walls.

Did a gut reno of a 1200 sft loft in Tribeca; about $100K all in (high end appliances (wolf/subz/grohe/duravit), additional bathroom, etc.) architect fees were $15K+ chaged hourly in which I thought there was alot of padding since no structural changes were made other than the bath install.

big difference markz between yours and the others is a two bedroom/2ba vs one bedroom loft. I would imagine that make up a large part of difference.

From my POV, if you are using an architect, expect to pay them 15-20% of the total cost of the job. So if, after bidding the final approved design out to three contractors, and settling on one to do the work, the final bid is $350,000, you will pay the architect $52,500-$70,000 for their services.

Doing a 2 bed/2-1/2 bath right now, spending about $400,000 for the job (very high end). Architect is getting $72,000 (+/-).

malraux, i have to disagree. why would you be paying a percentage of the job? i have never heard a reasonable explanation for why the architect should get a percentage. the closest justification i have heard for this is if they draw up detailed plumbing/electric plans and coordinate closely with the GC or if issues come up and immediate permit/problem solving is required then they will be on the spot. most do not do this. if one has more money than sense I suppose this works but i do not see where the value comes in in nyc. most apartments have such s specific footprint and co-op enforced limitations on structural moves there is nothing i can think of to justify paying an architect that much.

I never understood why an architect would get a % of the job. Why should they get paid more if I choose higher end finishes? It is the same amount of work if I choose Maytag or Miele isn't it?

eah:

"... if they draw up detailed plumbing/electric plans and coordinate closely with the GC ..." Uhhh, that's why my architect does, at least in this case. We're revolving a kitchen and dragging plumbing and gas lines. We're dragging gas lines to the terrace. We're installing central HVAC and locating it on the roof. Etc.

"...if one has more money than sense I suppose this works but i do not see where the value comes in in nyc..." The value comes in if and when a problem develops, the board of directors hits you with a stop work order, and you're sitting in the middle of a constuction zone for months while you pay lawyers to fight over it in the courts.

JuiceMan - if you sell the same exact one bedroom in Inwood or on Fifth Avenue across from the Met, why do you pay the broker the same 6%, even though the one bedroom apartment is exactly the same? It's the same with an architect. In addition, it has been my experience that higher quality finishes usually (but not always) require a far higher attention to detail and finish than lower cost work. If you're paying for high end work, you don't want that last 10% the contractor does to hurt the other 90% of the project. It either looks fabulous, or it really, really doesn't. You pay for thet kind of attention to detail.

malraux, a lot of architects simply do not coordinate with the trades in that way. If yours does, then it is likely worth the money. I have found many either do it on the side or have big firms and after a few months you're passed off to a junious architect and your main guy just appears to sign off. based on your work and the sensitivity of it, a percentage pay structure might be suitable. but a lot of renovations do not involve that kind of work. in terms of stop work issues, i have never heard of an architect resolving the issue. in fact, i think in all cases my expeditor has resolved most of my issues with the city and the GC had to go and resolve the other parts. unless you're doing something dodgy with your architect (like saying you're not moving gas lines and channel in electric and never pulled a permit) that is trying to fool an inspector than I don't know how they save the day? Seriously, not beign sarcastic...just never ran across a scenario and have renovated a lot of places.

Hi eah:

My bad, I wasn't being clear enough. What I meant to suggest is that an experienced, qualified architect, working with an excellent expediter, makes sure all the 't's' are crossed and the'i's' are dotted properly so that a reno never devolves into a legal battle. Less sharp architects (and the expeditors and contractors they use) sometimes let things slip by just a little bit, and that little bit can quickly become explosive in the midst of a large job, leading to much board agita. My point here being that I find it well worth it to pay for quality - not just in terms of finish, but professionally as well - and not scrimp in either area of professionalism.

The guys I use are always fully involved throughout the entire process. Not just the design and permitting, but are also on the reno sight as often as required (a couple of times a week throughout the entire job) with the cotractor and trades to make sure the level of finish is consitent and seamless.

Yes, then it seems worthwhile if they come on site and keep things moving.

makes sense malraux, thanks.

EAO - the whole project
JiuceMan - things like European refrigerators, hard-to-find faucets and sinks, very unique finishes.

Another thing: the contractor must (and does) deal with all permits/building materials/insurance/scheduling.

The designer had me sign the agreement that said that if I use my own contractor(s), the timing and budget issues are then my own. The best thing I did was to trust this designer's choice. I just paid on schedule, took a vacation and came back to a dazzling place.

stakan - would you feel comfortable giving your designer a plug and telling us who did the 'dazzling job?' - always good to know about another quality person....

also, what was the time frame on your $170,000 job?

This has been helpful. "Thank you" to everyone who has chimed in so far.

malraux - design by Light & Air Design. They were recommended and I was tgiven the phone #
The time frame was between 7 and 8 weeks

I've hired them hourly and with a percentage. Percentage can vary from 8-20+ depending on their level of involvement (those with construction management/owner rep responsibilities, or starquitects get paid the most). The AIA is a good source of information about this.

The main benefit to the percentage arrangement (for the owner) is that if you have a well established plan/budget/design, then your costs are known and controlled. So many times this makes sense.

If you know up-front that there will be lots of changes/upgrades/redos then often an hourly deal is probably more reasonable.

I also agree with the comments about designers and purchasing. I would always rather compensate the designer other than through purchases/discounts.

The owner's costa must show on the VERY detailed estimate. If there's even the slightest change, the estimate is updated. All costs are known before the contract is signed. Worked for me. I loved that the pictures were so precise that the workers were able to work off them.

stakan - i have AGA and Leibherr. so far, so good but have your guys recommended a good specialty repair company if they go off a bit? scheduling with the vendors are ridiculous.

eah - the designer's contractor dealt with all that. I know that the contractor had all these vendors and subcontractors. I did not get involved at any point.

Stakan -- I googled "Light & Air Design" and nothing came up. Can you give more info as to how to get in touch with them? Thanks.

srb162 -- all I have now is the cell (646) 249-9345. I'm not sure they advertise widely. It's more like a boutique shop and I loved it. Please share your experience if you get them.

srb162 — I found the address you asked for. It's lightandairdesign@gmail.com. I got them to do something for me.

Just to add, I am in the middle of a MAJOR renovation and I am paying my architects a percentage (20%). Not only have they done the drawings, but they did the bid out, went with us to pick all fixtures and made maazing suggestions, and did full construction management including working with and arranging expediters. They have been truly amazing and I hope to be back in my apartment in about 5 weeks. I did interview flat rate architects and my wife and I constantly think back and imagine how bad a situation we'd be in if we went that way. My architect has been on site 3 of 5 days each week, hold, weekly meeting with myself and contractor on site each week, and update the plans all the time. ou'd be amazed how much you want to change after demolition and you find all the little things that probing misses. Going with an architect you does drawings and walks away is a BIG mistake in my book and I could not be happier i paid my 20%. I got my money's worth and more.