The View at East Coast

Yeah Foundry and Solarium are def. lower tier buildings, although still nice, just not as nice as some of the others. The whole thing about LIC is views and easy access to Manhattan. Those 2 buildings just have the access, but no views. Might as well look at Sunnyside or Woodside.

So we are in agreement? The View is the best building in the neighborhood by far? I think it is worth it as long as you are paying no more than $800/sqft unless it is a "special" unit meaning it has a yard or large terrace, etc... than $1000/sqft *maybe* worth it compared to the other buildings that are generally going for $600+ /sqft

Whoever mentioned the Powerhouse as MERELY second tier isn't paying attention to this discussion (regarding build quality, financial issues, talk of looming lawsuits, etc.) let alone the other one on easystreet specifically about the Powehouse.

I also dissent again about the claiming the park is an any way uniquely accessable to View residents. That simply isn't true and I remain unwilling to go along with the consistent sales BS that "access" to things in the neigborhood, including independent third-party services, is somehow a benefit something conferred by the developer in return for the top dollar you are paying. From the perspective of building amenities, this building is stripped to bare bones. Period.

LIC isn't the only place where there is a lot of new development and easy availability. Consider the financial district, BPC, Williamsburg. The View is above the top price level for all these areas and I don't think you can find a building as stripped if you tried.

The View does offer the best view but lacks in amenities. It comes down to personal preference and I, for one, do not sit around staring at the city. I much rather have the easy parking and a convenient gym. Especially at $600+/sqft.

Is there anyone renting in there now? how much are they paying?

does anyone know floorplans for the 10 line and where it is facing?

10 line has both 1 bedroom and two bedroom, all are facing west.

I looked at theView and, disappointingly, got a better appreciation for some of the points mentioned in this helpful discussion.

If I am going to buy into the highest priced building in the area I want some moderate amount of exclusivity. I'm not looking for a gated community, mind you, but the set of amenities universally available at condos selling for 25 - 30% less really doesn't seem like too much to ask. It is bad enough that theView is smack dab in the middle of a overpopulated vertical-suburbia of GIGANTIC rental buildings (with yet more big rentals apparently being built next door to the North). It it is practically insulting that theView owners, like second class citizens compared to the neighboring renters, would be asked to leave their building and walk to these rental buildings for basic features like parking, a real gym, and common indoor and outdoor space. (And BTW, the park, accessible to teeming masses, is certainly NOT "common" outdoor space that in any way, shape or form belongs to theView owners.)

I want to put a sharper point on what may be implicit in some of the prior discussion. There is a rather basic and CRITICAL difference between buying into a building that has these basic amenities (in which case such amenities are literally part of what you are buying) and buying at theView, where these basic amenities temporarily are available outside your building through third parties (and are not at all part of intrinsic to what you are actually buying). You can't even buy a parking space if you wanted to (not that you would want to when the closest garage isn't even in your building, adjacent to your building, or owned by the same developer as your building).

Any sales spin that this ridiculous situation is somehow advanageous is nuts. Really! If anyone believes this, they presumably might be inclined to "buy" the Brooklyn Bridge too.

Because a good friend has one of the best units in 5SL, I've been looking in Hunters Point, but theView unfortunately really doesn't match 5SL IMHO.

Easy fix to these problems - get rid of all the apartments on the first floor north side and turn it into a decent sized gym, lounge with tv/pool table and kitchen and turn the gardens into common outdoor space with grills, tables and chairs. only one apartment sold on the first floor anyways.
You would think the developers would realize that the costs of fixing their mistake would be more than offset by the savings from marketing/broker/negative carry fees due to these lack-of-amenities apartments languishing in the market for another 2 years. No fix to lack of parking - but I'm sure a lot more people would be willing to accept no parking vs. no parking, no decent gym, no lounge, no outdoor space and no storage.

I guess they also can't fix the fact that this very pricey building (pricier than everything else in LIC) is set smack dab in the middle of canyons of relatively cheap high-density rentals. That fact alone is going to negatively influence the overall environment at theView permanently. Certainly creating some amount of self-sufficiency in standard amenities within the building would mitigate that problem to a degree. I don't know whether it can be fixed as you propose, greenlc, because I can't picture the first floor layout that well, and I certainly wouldn't buy into the View based on some unrealistic faith that the developer will come to its senses and address the problem over time. But certainly the current situation where owners who pay top dollar are literally told to schlep to those surrounding huge cheap rentals for standard amenities is unquestionably outrageous beyond belief! The throngs of neighboring renters (who for a tiny fraction of the cost are getting in their own buildings gyms, good common indoor and outdoor space, and convenient parking) really must be laughing up their sleeves when they see their foolish rich neighbors from theView come knocking to borrow what they are denied in their own pricey building.

My thoughts on the view best Views in Lic beautiful there is no doubt however the 2 bedroom layout I was very disapointed bad use of space and a waste of space with that long foyer. The masterbedroom is so tiny for a building calling itself the best in lic it leaves a lot of key features out. One can not even fit a king size bed in there its so small and then the fact that you have to go across the street to gym and parking all ruins it for me regardless of the views. If im buying a 2 bedroom I got to be able to fit beds in it not just have a great view especially for $800k -1 mil

Does anyone else have any opinions on this?

I was really excited about seeing this property especially since it has the unobstructed views of the city but after viewing the 2bdrms, I have completely deleted this property off my potential buy list.

buyer11 - I completely agree with you about the 2bdrm issue. I can't speak of the 1bdrms there which I'm sure are nice but I was extremely disappointed about the 2bdrms. They are unbelievably small. You definitely can't fit a king but even with a queen size bed you'd still be cramped in your own bedroom. I must have seen every 2bdrm layout because the sales rep had nothing to show me after I kept on pressing for a larger master bdrm. Plus, it doesn't help that the two bdrms are priced so ridiculously high. From a consumer/buyer perspective, it seems that profit had greater weight than function for these developers.

*sigh* buyer11: I currently rent in the View. I've rented in Riverview North (RN). I've looked all over H.P. and LIC in general. I've looked at EVERYTHING in the View as well as in the adjacent rentals. I've also looked at all the other condos in the area. Here's my take:
The View was designed so that almost every unit has...a view or outdoor space. That explains the ziggurat-like design. In order to provide a view for everyone, some sacrifices had to be made in the layouts. The sellers are banking on the initial wow factor of the unobstructed Manhattan views to sell the units. They're hoping that will somehow justify the prices and the layouts. I lived in a west facing 39th floor unit in (RN). Believe me, the whole great view of Manhattan thing gets old pretty quickly.
Yes, the wasted space in the hallways and the small master bedrooms in the View are a big turn-off. I've gotten used to walking across the street for the garage and other amenities. But that's not saying I like it. The truth is, the View is a stripped-down version of a true luxury condo. If one can rent next door and get all the amenities, then why would one spend so much to buy in a declining market? What are one's chances of selling one's unit without losing money?

SIGH thats for sure, Vagabondo your analysis is quite accurate the developers have something that no other building has that is this great view but unfortunetley we need a good layout and livable space more then we need a great view. As much as I was excited to see this building I have crossed it off my list its layouts just dont meet my needs and I can not justify paying 1 mil for an apartment just because I like the views but not the space. I know the view does get old after a while especially if other features and ameneties do not justify the high asking price

There are hundreds of rental units with the same view. I also am bemused by the oft-stated sentiment that The View offers some special access to the park. The rental building just to the south of The View (4720 Center Blvd, which is built closer to the water than The View thus affording itself an even better view and obliterating the view southwest from The View) actually has exclusive PRIVATE outdoor common space adjacent to the park of considerable size - about 1/3 or so of the size of the totally public space in front of The View. For all intents and purposes, this area IS the park, but it is just fenced off and accessible only from the building. Incidentally, this ground-level common space is in addition to nice roof-level space. What is the common outdoor space of any sort do you get for big bucks at The View? It's the same old story (say it with me) - Zero, Zip, Zilch, Nada, Bupkus!

Considering the staggering price differentials with other buildings in Hunters Point and the equally staggering reverse differential in amenities, one frankly becomes VERY suspicious that The View is really some type of cynical marketing experiment along the lines of the Pet Rock.

stella-I take issue with some of your statements.

"rental units with the same view."
Have you seen these rental units? they have crappy finishings no where near the viking range, subzero, fancier counter tops and finished custom cabinets, in unit w/d that the view has. Plus, all these buildings are rentals so the supply of condos for sale with unobstructed views is small that the value will be preserved and go up.

"I also am bemused by the oft-stated sentiment that The View offers some special access to the park."

Obviously you don't know real estate, its all about location, for example: a house ON the beach is worth many times more than a house that sits in the interior with just access to the beach.

"staggering price differentials"
-my unit directly facing west was $680/sqft very close to powerhouse, 5SL, solarium, etc.

I agree the lack of amenities in the building is a weakness but by no means a deal breaker. Can you suggest even one building in HP that has the combo of quality finishings/appliances and unobstructed view? ... no you can't.... that is why THE VIEW is the most unique property compared to anything else on the market right now with prices very close to other condos in the area that don't offer the same views and quality finishes. I bet if you were to rank the items most important to buyers finishes/quality appliances and view would rank much higher than amenity convenience, because that is all you are really griping about, the fact that you have to walk 1 min. to the EastCoast club.

I disagree licman and I am a buyer that has been looking for some time the small master bedroom and lack of amenities was a dealbreaker. I have to say the sale people were very nice but at the end of the day when your paying that kind of money 800k - 1mil i was looking for a 2 bedroom a bad layout and lack of ameneties in the building that you are buying do make a difference

Also apppliances are something that can be changed so that is not as important but some other things like layouts floorplans ameneties matter more and I met quitw a few buyers that feel the same way

LICman, both you and stella have valid points. If walking across the street for amenities is not a problem, then walking across the street for the park shouldn't be a problem either. I live in the View and park across the street as well use the pool and the gym. Look, the View is a very nice building. The people working there are a great bunch of fellows. That's a big plus. You must agree, it would be so much better if you had those things in the View. This past year has seen an inordinate number of very wet, cold, snowy days. Even though I walk down and use the side door to exit, it's still a long 40 yards or so when the weather sucks. Location is very important. But 20-30k more in finishes doesn't justify the prices in my mind. Real estate prices are still in decline. When Bernanke starts raising rates, the prices will decline more. I also fear the tranquility of the View will be greatly disrupted when the monstrous rental is completed next door and when Center Blvd and the park is extended. The View on a quiet little cul de sac now but who knows what's going to happen a year or two down the line. With such uncertainty in the market and in the surrounding neighborhood, I can't justify locking myself into purchasing in the View right now.

buyer11, I've read your other posts and feel we of of one mind. We've both done a lot of searching in the area. I feel we may be able to share info. vagabondo@gmail.com

LICman, I agree that the View has the top finishes compared to other buildings in LIC, and obviously the best view, but it is not priced close to the other buildings. It is significantly higher. And the layouts and lack of amenities are a big deal to most people.

"(say it with me) - Zero, Zip, Zilch, Nada, Bupkus!"

--- LOL!

I find it intresting that on this thread there is not much mention that this building is a land lease they dont tell you that unles you ask in sales office but a very important thing to consider. Generally land lease buildings are priced 20% lower then comparables because of the uncerntinty with the land lease and how much increase in cost there will be later. Just something to consider if you are looking here

yeah but the land lease is for 100 years so doubt it impacts the pricing or financing at all...And the owner of the land I believe is the City and County and not interested in "profiting" from increasing the lease (so no need to worry about increasing costs to owners), but rather offered incentives and supported rockrose in the first place to develop the LIC waterfront.

The land lease wasn't a big issue with my appraiser. Apparently, they don't take those things into account. They only care about the current market value of the units. It remains to be seen how NYS will deal will deal with the "contract" and the land in the future. The residents of BPS are swallowing a bitter pill right now...

It seems like many ppl in the thread think TF cornerstone cannot justify the price for "the view". Yet, there are ppl buying from them. Around a month ago, TF cornerstone sold 30% of the units in "the view". They actually raised the price for some of the units after they hit 30%. That suggests even if "the view" is more expensive than any other building nearby, there is a demand for such a building.

I don't understand why ppl keep comparing the rental buildings to "the view". They are rental. You cannot buy them. A better comparison would be 5SL. Resale of 5SL is around $600-700 per square feet. There are units sold at "the view" at that price point. Units with a nice view and on higher floors will cost more but that's normal.There is no parking at "the view" but the finishing is the best in LIC. In my opinion, "the view" is priced right.

You seem to miss the point, which is that the building does not offer what others, including rentals, do. The sales perfomance at the view is frankly very very sad and, if anything, underscores the market perception of what is wanting. As someone said, there were also sales of the pet rock. A small handful of sales doesn't validate the product.

Licmike only time will tell 30% sold is not such a great accomplishment much difficulty getting financing etc. but it comes down to what people are willing to pay however they dont seem willing to pay the asking prices according to the latest closing data

LICmike, you are not incorrect. As long as there are people willing to pay the price for something, no matter what it may be, then it is worth it. After all, there exists a photo on a small old piece of cardboard that is worth more than any condo in the View. Of course, I'm talking about the 1909 Honus Wagner baseball card which was sold for $2.35M. But that's the only one of it's kind. If there were no other buildings around the View, then the prices might be justified. But there are other buildings adjacent to it and more to come.

Here's some logic: An apartment with the equivalent square footage as a View condo that sells for $1M can be rented next door for $36k or 3%. If you have $1M cash, you can safely get 6.6% yield on your $1M in say, AT&T stock. Minus the 3% for your rent, you're STILL making 3.3% on your money. After capital gains taxes of 12%, that's STILL $29k net income. Do you really think that after the carrying charges, the mortgage, the mansion tax and the closing costs are paid off on a $1M View condo, that you'll be up $29k in equity one year from now?

Oops, forgot about the capital gains if you sold the condo. I should have said, "Do you really think that after the carrying charges, the mortgage, the mansion tax and the closing costs are paid off on a $1M View condo, that you'll be up $33k in equity one year from now?" Remember, if it's an investment property, then the capital gains tax rate can be 25%.

buyer11, i agree 30% is not a great accomplishment. but since they set the price higher and probably have a higher profit margin, they are making enough money that they would not lower the price.
I think no one would pay for the asking price. If I looked at the stats, anyone can easily get 10% off their asking price.

Vagabondo,
i see there is a 3 br sell for less than 1M. Let's say you can get it at around 900K.
If you rent a 3 br from rockrose or tf cornerstone, you would be paying 42K and that's 4.6%. AT&T's stock went up 2.3% in one year($25.65 on 4/25/09 to $26.25 on 4/24/10). So the money I made from AT&T did not cover the cost. Of course if I had bought apple then i made 1M less tax.

If I were to invest in real estate, I would never think of it as a one year investment. you are right in that case that stock is a better option. However, if I look at it as a 5 year or 10 year investment, then buying a investment property in this tough economic time might not be a bad idea. Keep in mind the S&P has gone up 40% in one year and real estate is not moving much. If I had to invest in something today, I would not buy stock.

I got a 1 bedroom unit for $600K that I know could rent for at least $3,000/mo. = $36,000 a year. If you look at the purchase price to rent ratio you get 16.667, not bad...Also, if you look at my breakdown

Total Monthly carrying cost: $3,300 (with 25% down at 5.125% for 30 years + CC/taxes)
Monthly mortgage deduction: $600
Net monthly carrying: $2,700

Cost to own already beats rental. Plus everyone knows LIC will appreciate over next 5-10 years, so locking in low rates now is the way to go if you can hold on. And the waterfront is the place to be. Below is a link about LIC in THE REAL DEAL,John Reinertsen senior vice president, CB Richard Ellis, was asked in the article:

Which projects in Long Island City that you are not affiliated with do you think are the best bang for the buck?

"For the best value deal I still like Rockrose. I think the best value is down by the waterfront. I think Queens West is going to be a really great community long-term."

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/trying-to-sell-out-in-long-island-city

Youcan't be serious, LICmike. You're talking about 301 in the View which faces the construction site and west. Have you even seen that unit? There is and never will be a view in that unit. Renting an equivalent apartment in another building would be cheaper than 3k. Let me get this straight, your logic is: if the stock market has gone up 40% in a year, then it must go down. Why? Interest rates cannot go lower and are poised for an increase. Which means real estate prices are poised to go down.
LICman, a one bedroom for 3k? really?
Plus, if you are a slave to debt, then you really don't OWN anything.

From Patrick.net:
Because it's still much cheaper to rent than to own the same size and quality house, in the same school district. On the coasts, annual rents are 3% of purchase price while mortgage rates are 6%, so it costs twice as much to borrow the money than it does to borrow the house. Renters win and owners lose! Worse, total owner costs including taxes, maintenance, and insurance come to about 9% of purchase price, which is three times the cost of renting and wipes out any income tax benefit. Buying a house is still a very bad deal in the richer neighborhoods, but it does make sense to buy in some relatively poor neighborhoods where prices have already fallen into line with salaries and rents. Check whether you should rent or buy in your own area with this NY Times calculator.
The only true sign of a bottom is a price low enough so that you could rent out the house and make a profit. Then you'll know it's safe to buy for yourself because then rent could cover the mortgage and all expenses if necessary, eliminating most of your risk. The basic buying safety rule is to divide annual rent by the purchase price for the house:
annual rent / purchase price = 3% means do not buy
annual rent / purchase price = 6% means borderline
annual rent / purchase price = 9% means ok to buy

Here's the NYT calculator:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/business/buy-rent-calculator.html

Vagabondo,
My point was I used your proposed method of buying AT&T and didn't cover the cost. Also, I don't think you can rent a 3 br with less than $3000 from TF cornerstone or Rockrose (Yes, I looked at the unit and did not like it for other reasons). Show me a listing to prove me wrong.

So let's use the NYT calculator.
If renting 3 br cost $3250
It will cost me 900K to buy. I used 25% down and 5.13% for mortgage. rent goes up 3% and home price goes up 3% as well. I am better off after 6 years.
If you have 900K to invest, then you don't need mortgage and you will be better off after 5 years.
Is it really such a bad investment?

Yes interest rate is going to go up. So what?
Let's say it is 6% mortgage instead of 5.13%
it will cost me 810K to buy, assuming home price will go down for another 10%.
I will still be better off after 6 years. Just because home price go down does not mean you will save money. you will pay less for the home and more for the mortgage.

LICmike. That's just the DIVIDEND! If you account for even a modest increase in stocks. You're looking at over 10%! If interest rates go up, then money is more expensive which will drive demand down and the prices down! Sheesh!
And you're not taking into account all of the other costs of owning that a renter does not have.
AND you're not liquid! God forbid you needed your money in a week.

According to the tf cornerstone website, The View is now FHA approved with 95% financing available...This should open up a lot of buyers for this development.

I always laugh when I see fha 95% financing...this type of financing is how we got into this housing mess. If you only have 5% to put down on a 800k apt you shouldnt be buying there

Just signed contract to purchase at the View. Any advice on where to obtain a mortgage? Preferably one that has closed on the unit already.

EDW216, how much per sq ft? Didn't you use the people the sales office recommended?

Big price cuts, seems like they are going to try to sell as much as they can this month before the open house season is over.

What do you mean by big price cuts licman? I know 15% off asking is what some recently closed for at least according to the sales office

Vegabondo, 770 sq foot, on a floor from 6-9 (sorry, don't want everyone to know where I live. I'm a corporate lawyer, and will be happy to answer any questions on the unit (though I'm not giving legal advice). Regarding the ground lease issue, it is not simply a ground lease, but, is actually a lease that permits the condo board to purchase it from the current owner (a wholly-owned subsidiary of governmental agencies) for literally $1 dollar. So, it is essentially the same as buying into a building without a ground lease. I've assured myself that the condo board will be able to purchase the ground without issue.
Regarding the renting v. buying debate, it would be clever to rent and invest the purchase price at a higher rate of return. However, while a bank would let you borrow a million dollars when secured by real property, no stock broker will let you borrow that much unless 60 percent secured by stocks. Moreover, mortgage rates are about 5 percent. Borrowing to trade on margin carries a rate of 8 percent, I think. Its just safer and better to buy than rent.

I have explored the LIC area meticulously and I think the View has one of the best locations. However, they have their pricing completely off given all the cons of the building. Here are the facts

1. The asking price for most new condominiums in the area range from 600 - 700 per square foot (Let us use 650 for our calculation). The View is asking for 900 - 1100 per square foot (use 900 for calculation). Is the view for the city really worth paying 40% - 70% premium?

2. The View is marketing the skyline of Manhattan and the park. The park is something open to the public it is not exclusive to the building owners. The skyline of Manhattan is nice to look at but at this price you can actually become a part of the skyline instead of just looking at it! Also, after a while the skyline becomes immaterial for the residents.

3. The building has been on the market for 3 years and still is at 30 % sold

4. The number of units are just 72. This should have been a benefit for the builder but the market is clearly saying LOWER your prices

5. Let us assume that you end up buying the apartment and few years later you plan to sell it. Can you sell it at a premium or will barely get a 3% return if you already paid Manhattan prices? Also, consider this there several new developments coming up - Hunters Point South, TF corner stone is building a condo as well right in the same area which will have all the amenities in built unlike the View. TF corner stone is using the View to set a high price for the second development which is will have many more units. So actually the View is a test bed for raising the prices. Now, if a new condo is built in the same area and the View apartment is also on sale which off the two would a buyer in future opt for? My guess is the new building. So what does the owner of the View apartment do? Lower the price (Note your price after putting a 3% increase goes up to 1043 per square feet).

6. Here are other facts
- No parking in the building
- No roof deck
- No lounge in the building
- A small gym the larger gym is across in another building

7. Consider another interesting fact - if the building remains under 50% sold then as far as my understanding goes - the builder can convert the building into rental. So as buyer you will never be able to become part of the your building's condo board. Even right now I don't know how long it will take to reach that point. I don't think it matters a whole lot.

8. Also consider that the area around the View would be a CONSTRUCTION SITE for next 3 - 5 years - I think TF Cornerstone is building 3 or 4 high rises (2-3 rentals and 1 condo). Plus the state is planning some construction as well.

9. The View is great but during winters do you really want to walk 4 street blocks and one avenue block to get to the subway. Can the view help you relieve you the bitter cold?

10. Of all the selling points that View boasts about only one of them is partially exclusive to them. Everything else is the virtue of LIC not the View. So 90 - 95% of all the advantages at the View are available to all the residents of the area.

I don't understand what's the exclusivity at the view? I would very much like to get convinced about this property but have failed to understand the pricing. I found tremendous value in all the fellow commenters to come to this conclusion. I hope this helps other potential buyers make a wise decision as well.

Buyer101, you obviously know enough about the View to know it is selling for a much steeper discount from the asking price than others buildings. The premium for the View is more like 25%. Whether that premium is justified is matter of personal taste. My girlfriend and I could have bought a 1 bed at LHaus with of only the LIE, or pay that big premium, and have breakfast on the weekends on our balcony with a view of the skyline. No right answer. You're right about the risk of not being able to recoup the purchase price in a few years. But, I know ill enjoy my life at the View. Would you really use the park as often if you lived 4 or 5 blocks away? (If you tell me yes, then I don't see why you would mind that the View's gym is across the street.)

edw216 - One might mind the gym being a block or two away but not mind the park being 4 or 5 blocks away mainly because the park is used during the summer/spring/fall (i.e. not when it's snowing/cold) whereas the problem with the gym lies in that 1-2 block trek that becomes a pain during those cold winter days.

I agree with azalin. Most people utilize the gym much more frequently (or at least they should be) than the park due to the weather, so access to the gym is more important. And despite the fact that I am right next to the park and the weather has been decent, I get very little use out of it since they are anti-dogs. Instead, we bike 34-35 blocks to take our dog to a dog-friendly waterfront park. This makes "access to the gantry park" even less important to me.
But I think it's hard to argue against the fact that being by the park/water is better than being by the midtown tunnel. The question is - is this worth a ~45% premium? Cheapest 1 bed sold at Lhaus was $336.5k vs. cheapest 1bed sold at the View was $499.9k. Slight difference in sq footage, but from my visual assessment, a "sq ft" at lhaus is larger than what is considered a "sq ft" at the view.

greenlc/azalin-Hypothetically, would you rather be on Lexington ave. with a gym in building or 5th avenue overlooking central park but have to walk to Equinox?! Comparing Gantry park to central park may be a bad analogy but you get my point...

The competitive advantage that LIC has over other neighborhoods is its proximity to midtown (which all condos in Hunter's point have) and protected VIEWS (which only The View has). Yes you have to walk across the street to access the amenities but what you have available is better than any other amenities that other condos offer. And its a good thing that the amenities are spread across multiple buildings keeping common charges extremely low at The View whereas other condos will probably have increasing common charges over time.

And the premium is more like 5-30% (they are open to negotiations and you can pick your price point depending on features).

And the View is head and shoulders above the rest in terms of overall appliances, finishings, elevators, hallways, construction details, etc.

actually the floorplans at the view are some of the worst in lic try to fit a king bed in the bedroom the only good thinkg about view is the view and that does not warrent the price and that is also evident by the number of units that they have sold or I should say not sold

Well the reason for not selling was they had the unfortunate timing of starting sales right when the real estate bust began and they have 181 units versus other much smaller developments a fraction of their size. And with such big cash reserves because of the stability of the developer, were able to hold off on price decreases for as long as they did - developer bought development outright. Other developments had their sales begin much earlier and could take advantage of the real estate boom. Although last I heard in April they were 40% sold with sales picking up now that they have lowered pricing and willing to negotiate substantially downward. These units are moving.

I agree "some" of the layouts are not ideal but is the compromise to maximize having floor to ceiling glass windows with multiple exposures of manhattan in as many of the units as they have it in. Also its quite a big building with varying layouts that a buyer can find something unique.

buyer 11: There is also a premium to pay for the stability of the sponsor and the development around the view. As stated also by LICman, the sponsor has a good cash reserve and you can simply buy with more confidence. The last cost estimate for this stage of the queen west development was 40 million. When the development is all completed, the view will be surrounded by library, park, sport field, CUNY dorm building (not part of the queen west development but it is in close proximity), and a lot of other facilities. I understand your point that many facilities such as the park and the sport field for now and the library in the future is not exclusive for the residents at the view, but i think it is fair to say the view should be selling with a premium. We can disagree on what premium is fair but that's a matter of personal preference.

http://www.abbnyc.com/pdfs/queens_west.pdf

LICman: After the view was FHA approved, the sponsor actually started to raise the price instead of lowering it. You mentioned you paid $680/sf for your unit, I don't think that's happening these days.

Hmm, units not selling like hotcakes so...let's kick out all the renters and RAISE the asking prices 10-20%! PH1 went up $370,000. Hell, why not a round it up to a nice even $400,000 increase?

they must be raising prices because demand is picking up

Stocks tumble as euro drops, jobless claims rise
Stocks extend steep slide after euro drops again; weekly jobless claims unexpectedly rise.
Stocks plunged again Thursday as more investors woke up to the possibility that economic problems such as Europe's debt crisis might spread around the world and stop the growing recovery in the U.S.
AP 05/20/2010 3:56 pm

Yes, the demand will be picking up like crazy. Stop dreaming.

it don't make sense to just take an snapshot of the market and make prediction, or i can easily say stock lose 10% in a month and the home value does not drop as much and hence investing in home is a better option.

Units are selling and that's the ONLY reason the sponsor would dare to raise the price. Simple logic.

LICmike,
How much did you pay for your unit? How long ago? How much do you think it's worth today?
If you own at the View, then why are you here talking about it??? Are you trying to convince people to buy? Room for one more!

Do you need other information like my social security number and date of birth to continue this discussion?
Look, in February they reduced the prices for those penthouses. If you have to stick with your logic then I suppose that means many people were buying so they had to reduce the price.
They reduced the price because they wanted to sell faster. They don't need to do that now because the building is FHA approved.

LICmike, You STILL haven't answered why you are here if you ALREADY bought. Why are you advocating so heavily if you already own in the View? What do you have to gain? Please tell us.

I would not be surprised if this condo is more than 50% sold already considering the recent brisk sales and FHA approval...can someone confirm %sold or have any updates?

I was there with a friend who was looking in the neighborhood and was told by the agent that they are 30% sold. Great building, but as people have said, 2bd layouts seem to have either a challenging master bedroom layout or a small living room. Also, a very small shower in the master bath. Great finishes though and great construction quality.

LICman and his brother, LICmike, and everyone else, read this and poo-poo it if you can:
http://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-new-york-city-real-estate-prices-to-fall-at-least-another-35-2009-5

Vegabondo, that article, citing DB, says ny real estate will drop another 40%. That means a one bed in midtown costing 700,000 will drop to 420,000? Lower than LHaus is now (last I checked, 480,000)? Better yet, Lhaus 1 bed will be 280,000? They need to give me reasons to believe that. They said only that NY's prices fell late compared to elsewhere, and so has ways to go. Maybe NY's late fall is a sign of strength, and why does NY have to fall any further?

LICman, View is not 50% sold. Probably more like 30-40. I wish it was 50. It would make getting a mortgage easier.

LICmike: Here's your "snapshot". Take your blinders off. The world (yes, the USA is part of the world) is in for a lot of economic pain. That doesn't bode well for your housing prices.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/17/business/global/17fear.html
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-second-debt-storm-hits-nations-2010-05-14

edw216: I guess you know more than me...*sigh*
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ajBu2ra7o.nQ&

Homeownership is ingrained in the American psyche. Beyond that, the idea of owning a home has become a moral imperative in the United States. Presidents from Herbert Hoover to George W. Bush have extolled the virtues of homeownership as a symbol of American freedoms and values. "No man who owns his own house and lot can be a Communist," the preeminent 20th century builder William Levitt famously said.

Owning a home has become inextricably linked to the American dream, as much a part of the social fabric as baseball and apple pie. But the reality is that most Americans would be better off buying shares of Apple instead of trying to use homeownership as a vehicle for wealth creation.

The contention flies in the face of maxims and political mantras that millions of Americans have accepted as Gospel truth. But the numbers, the economists and the historical patterns lead to the same general conclusion: Homeownership is not a wise investment.

A Dearth of Diversity
There's a cliché about eggs and baskets that's rather apropos here. In most cases, investors would shudder at the thought of pumping a majority of their capital into a single stock, no matter how blue the chip. But that's exactly what most homeowners are doing. And it can have devastating long-term consequences given the unpredictable, fluctuating nature of the housing market. Just ask the thousands of near-retirees nationwide who've been forced to hold off on retirement because of the one-two punch of diminished stock portfolios and plummeting home values.

"You're supposed to diversify as much as possible — put your money into stocks, bonds, many different geographies — and then use the income to rent whatever you like, which allows for greater flexibility, as well as efficiencies," Robert Schiller, a professor of economics at Yale University, wrote in an October 2008 issue of Newsweek. "The popular argument that renting is throwing money down the drain is really fallacious, since if one rents one can invest the money one would have put in the home in other investments, and so offset the rent with the dividends from the investments."

Homeownership can become a black hole for income that could otherwise be redirected into investments with more stable, proven returns. Isn't the stock market risky? Sure, it certainly can prove tumultuous, especially looking at the last two years. But for most homeowners interested in maximizing return on investment, history is not on your side...

History is Not on Your Side
It doesn't square with the American mantra of homeownership, but there are numerous studies from economists, real estate experts, sociologists and others that continually lead to the same conclusion: Homeowners are lucky to break even when using their home as an investment. The reality is that, in most cases, historical returns are much more favorable for the stock market and other forms of business and even real-estate investment.

For example, the average appreciation for U.S. homes was 5.6 percent from 1987 to 2006, according to the S&P National Home Price Index. Adjusted for inflation, that's more in the ballpark of a 3- to 5-percent return. Factor in the 2 percent expense ratio of owning a home (the cost of ownership as a percentage of its value over the course of a year, as defined by The Motley Fool) and those margins shrink even further. At the same time, there are proven, big-time companies whose returns have far outstripped market averages for decades.

Economists also point to the Case-Shiller index, a composite of 10 major cities. The return on homes is a mere 1.14 percent a year over inflation since 1987. Since 1994, the figure has increased slightly to an annual return of 4.7 percent. But factor in inflation during that span (about 2.5 percent) and you're still looking at thin margins — around 2.2 percent annually above inflation. As the Wall Street Journal recently noted, investors routinely perform better with government bonds.

Buying a House is Just Renting Anyway
Speaking of mantras and clichés, there's one in particular that tends to dominate the buy v. rent discussion: Paying rent is simply throwing away money every month. But how many homeowners get back their mortgage interest payments, or their property taxes, or their monthly maintenance expenses?

Vagabondo,

4 weeks ago I wrote
"Keep in mind the S&P has gone up 40% in one year and real estate is not moving much. If I had to invest in something today, I would not buy stock."

Thank you for posting those articles but I am well aware of the global economic problem all along.

I agree with edw216 that a 40% drop is highly unlikely. Vagabondo, can you elaborate why home price should drop for another 40%? What price point do you think the view should be selling at? Few weeks ago you suggested interest rate was poised to go up and hence home price should drop. Now that interest rate continued to go down, does that change your thinking?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704904604575262713807080890.html?mod=WSJ_Markets_section_Bonds

I agree the debate between home-owning vs renting is an important one. In my opinion, there is just no clear winner at this point. I look at the annual rent / purchase price in this building and I got 4% to 5%. That's in line with the current mortgage rate, meaning it costs about the same to own than rent.

LICmike. There is historical precedent. It happened back in the late 80's and early 90's. Banks wouldn't lend to people in NYC who wanted to buy a condo or co-op. People who paid 300k had trouble selling for 100k. The co-op and condo market collapsed.
Prices will drop no matter WHAT interest rates do. You keep talking about "owning". If you have a mortgage, then you don't "own" anything except a mortgage. God forbid you lose your ability to generate income or worse. Then what would you do? Furthermore, you're not liquid. Nobody mentions either of these two points. The bottom line for me is if I can buy a place and walk away with 10% equity the moment I close AND am able to sell it immediately, then it's worth it for me. It seems like you're here to reaffirm your decision to purchase. Look, if you're happy with your decision, then forget about this web site and never sign on again. Leave the debate to we who have not yet bought.

These are like the rent v buy discussions that have been held on these boards for years. vagabondo is like all the renter proponents, who like to ignore the tax benefits of owning, ignore the intangible benefits of owning (such as greater control and choice over the things you do with your property), and ignore the fact that after your mortgage is paid, you own a major asset.

LICComment, I wouldn't say his position is that simple. He is focused on what options affords the greatest rate of return. His point now is that, even if you do buy, now is not a good time to. His reasoning is that real estate will decline. I for one would like to hear anyone who can sell me on that argument.

Trust me LICComment, I own 5 other properties. Owning and individual unit only locks into a money pit for the best years of your life. If you own multiple properties that can generate positive cash flow after mortgage payments, taxes, insurance,maintenance, repairs, upgrades, utilities, employee(s) to handle it all, then it worth it...if you can stand the headache. MY whole point is that the View is way overpriced (my Certified Appraiser said so). So buying in it is not a good business decision. "Intangibles" is a seller/broker tactic to get you to buy. When buying anything, especially something as serious as real estate, you must look at the numbers soberly. There can be no emotion involved. The tax benefits are not as great as you think. Besides, how can you guarantee you'll be alive that long or be continuously employed for that long? If you were to put all that money every month into other investments, then you'll STILL own major assets.

Vagabondo, my comments regard owning your home, not investment property. That is a related but different analysis.
I completely agree that the numbers have to work. Home prices can be overpriced relative to other options just like anything else. But some of the renter arguments are tenuous. What if you lose your job, and I assume in your hypothetical that you can't get another job that pays near the same for the long-term? Well, you are up the creek either way. If you own and can sell, you do so. If you are way underwater, you walk. What if you rent and you lose your job in the same manner? You are still going to lose your home.

And the argument relating to other investments is not that simple. When you buy, you are usually buying with great leverage. You are not likely to make similar investments with similar leverage if you are renting.

edw216: That's right. It's possible that you got a great deal. Or a deal that's great for you. I'm happy you did. The View's pricing seems to be arbitrary. For example, in the past few weeks some asking prices stayed the same while some went up 30%.

LICcomment: Walking away from a mortgage sounds simple but there are great consequences to bear. It's much easier to downsize when you're renting. Plus, you get mobility. A house is not a liquid asset. You'd have to heavily discount your selling price if you wanted to sell right away. You'd lose any equity you may have built up.

I don't understand your last paragraph. Are you saying that the only other investments out there are options? Whats wrong with holding a solid stock that pays 6% dividend? Don't forget your tax benefits there. You pay 12% on capital gains. That's how the super wealthy pay such low taxes. Most all of their income comes in that manner. It's we HENRYs (High Earner Not Rich Yet) who get hurt by taxes. Look, you can't deny that a sound investment strategy for investing is diversification. If that's the case, then why put all your eggs in one basket?

Most people try to live the American Dream by borrowing. They usually borrow to buy a home they can barely afford. That's what got the U.S. and the rest of the world into its current financial debacle. Renters didn't hurt the economy, bankers didn't do it either. It was the BUYERS who chased "intangibles" and who believed real estate was a good investment that got us into this mess.

I'm not trying to convince you that buying real estate is wrong. Just like I'm not going to tell you that getting married is wrong. There can be lifelong benefits to both. But as with both endeavors, it's important to find the right one(s) at the right time. ;)

vagabondo- yes there is more involved with selling, but it isn't as impossible as you make it seem. You get a broker, list your house, get offers, and take the best offer. In either situation, you will look for another smaller rental and have the some costs and burdens as far as moving.

To your second point, you buy a home, you are putting 20% down and investing the rest with borrowings. Most people are not going to use 5 to 1 leverage to buy stocks. You must be aware of this difference.

I like your marraige analogy . . .

LICComment. Good luck in your search. I don't play the options market. That's too rich for my blood.

Has anyone closed on their units and can share how the closing process works or the mortgage process / consessions work? I was there the other weekend and they are trying to give potential buyers incentives such as sponsor paying for transfer taxes ? from previous buildings this was given because the sponsor has some type of special financing only if you go with their in house loan officers. Also anyone think its weird that the building doesnt actually own the land and has a 99 year lease but has the option to buy after 99 years for 1 dollar?

That land option isn't too uncommon in LIC.

I have to say that they jerk around the prices from one day to the next. Not sure that they sales people are that bright and certainly the sponsor must either have enough money to weather a storm or is a total moron. The prices they are asking relative the market are way out of wack.

Even if the prices were good.. the layout of most places is just really bad. The person who decided on the size and shape of the rooms was certainly not in tune with day to day living.

If you are thinking of buying there.. think about the following. NO GYM (to speak of), NO roof deck, NO parking, NO storage and far enough from the subway to make you think twice - especially in the winter.

Sorry Mr. View, I'm not buying it. Good luck selling it.

I have to disagree with nyccatalyst. I have been living here the past two months after closing on a 1 bedroom apt and there is not a single morning that goes by that I am not ecstatic about waking up here...This purchase is a dream come true and one of the best decisions I have ever made in my entire life. For anyone on the fence about this place, I can tell you from firsthand knowledge that this is a wonderful building and amazing place to call home.

LICman...congrats!
We will check in with you in 6 months to see if the dream presists!
Good Luck!

No closings whut is going on with this place?

Doesn't streeteasy only have the closings if they're released by the Sponsor/developer?

Closings are listed on ACRIS. looks like they are a tad over 40% sold (based on closings)

Looks like theyre over 51% sold and we have approved the condo for lending. sunny.hong@bankofamerica.com

that is huge news, no wonder prices are going up now. I expect them to sell the rest of their units come this spring season.

wow! 51% sold. Everyone better hurry up an buy a few units here before the prices go up even more and they run out of apartments!

I honestly don't think they'll ever completely sell out this building. Maybe 5-7 years, depending on the market. Prices will be likely drop 5-10% more across all of NYC and that's being optimistic.

Any update?? I got a deal round $837/sqft, above 10th floor, do you guys think it's OK to buy in?

Not really. But it depends on what your other options are. Have you looked at other buildings in the area Leisteven?

Yes I did, but after I visited the view, I'm not interested in those anymore. The Edge in Williamsberg is good as well, but I work at the midtown, The edge is a little bit to far for me. The view is now 60% sold, very few one bedroom left, really hard to negotiate

I don't think that's a deal at all. About 3/4 of the other normal 1 beds (no crazy large balconies or extra bathrooms) that have sold so far have went for a lower ppsf. And many of these are 10th floor or higher. But I guess everyone has a difference sense of the non-economical value of a building or apartment. I just can't understand how there is "scarcity" value when the building is still approx 40% unsold after over 3 years of marketing. Anyways, good luck and hope you are at least asking for some other benefits, like closing costs, common charges or free parking in the next building.

The View has sold 50% in THREE (3) YEARS!!! They havent sold a single Unit since 11/30/2010!!!!! They REFUSE to negotiate on price. TF Cornerstone is in a dream world with this place and the prices they want. Now they claim they are 605 sold!!! CRAZY!!

60% sold.....WRONG

The view is legit. Rented there for a year and loved it. Great staff and awesome building maintenance. The place is spotless and the super seems to run a really tight ship. Sure its pricey but it literally is the only condo building with unobstructed views so the premium is deserved IMO. Personaly I work in midtown and Id rather live here than in FIDI or chelsea nyc, its just easy living. The commutes fantastic, super quiet at night bc the park in front closes, and the park in the back is awesome for recreational sports/kids. U cant find that set up in nyc. If i were single, maybe my opinion would be different. Now married with a kid its either the burbs or LIC. This offers the parks of the burbs and the nightlife and ease of nyc. For all of these reasons were going to buy in the View. All the posts above are correct in the sense that its overpriced but there are a few reasons at play that made me swallow the premium. Bernanke is printing greenbacks like crazy and the excess reserves sitting on bank balance sheets will certainly fuel inflation once lending increases. So i feel strongly that if your balance sheet can swing it, you might as well lever yourself up for 30yrs and pay that off in cheaper USD's down the road. Also foreigners view things priced in USD as extremely cheap rigth now bc most currencies have appreciated significantly against it in this past year. As a result i have seen a definite foreign bid to units at the View. They are paying up for the location, despite all the negatives listed at length above. The fact is once you own something, you can make it your own, invest in nicer furnishings, paint etc and not have to think about possibly moving every year or so. Just one mans opinion and maybe im simply justifying my purchase but it made sense for me.

nicely stated above. I'd like to add that the construction quality and finishes are better than any new development I've seen in LIC if not all of manhattan...

Well said NYCnumba1stunna. You are right. Living in LIC is all about the view, serenity away from true city life, and ease of access to NYC. So if these things are important then this is the right place to plant your roots. And if you are planting roots and can afford it, The View is the premier building to buy in. Is it perfect? Of course not but what building is? There are pros and cons to all buildings and we can sit here and debate all day long. However, one cannot dispute that TF does not compromise on quality. They pay attention to details and it's an amazingly quiet building because it is so structurally sound. Finally, unobstructed views? Priceless for resale. For these reasons, it makes other buildings look like they are less of a bargain in comparison.

Silvette is the worst broker in NYC.

Wow Hshntr, you seem really disinterested.

hfscomm1