No permits construction in apartment for sale
Started by Flutistic
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 516
Member since: Apr 2007
Discussion about
We're interested in buying a condo that has a loft/mezzanine that was built without permits or notification to the building's management. The DOB advises that I call 311 and let them send an inspector to the apartment. An expediter told me there is a C of O issue because the mezzanine adds a floor to the building. Otherwise she said plans could be filed, etc., and with luck the thing might be approve-able. My question is, can we make this thing legal post-closing, and would we owe fines? Can we even just rip it out--correct the violation--without penalty?
Flutistic:
Why would you consider buying a condo that has outstanding DOB violations, without a contract that stipulates
the seller to meet compliance?
"post-closing": the seller's responsibility becomes yours. You will then be the owner.
The DOB requires that their inspection process is the responsibility of the owner.
Only the DOB inspector can sign-off on a "corrected violation".
Thanks, Truth, wise words. We bailed. The answer to why of course is that we loved the place. The agent didn't tell us about this until after we submitted our best and final offer, the news took me by surprise
Good move to bail, on your part Flutistic.
Always be wise and never surprised. You should only "love" the other person that is your "we".
"Love" for an RE unit is and should be fleeting in circumstances such as those you encountered.
I purchased a condo where the owner (who had been condo board president!) built a loft structure without filing permits. She had downplayed the amount of work she was doing and never filed with DOB or even the building architects. In my renovation, I wanted to REMOVE the loft as I did not like it.
When I started my renovation, I got the original plans for the apartment...which did not show the loft. Stupidly, I had my architect re-draw accurate plans showing the loft and then showing the changes which would make the space back into the original, legal layout. I figured that we should be allowed to rip out the illegitimate work without filing for DOB, but the building architect was a stickler and gave me a hard time about it. Had I just submitted the "original" plans which were inaccurate, and stated that I was doing cosmetic changes (the rest of my renovation), they would not have known or stopped me.
Instead I paid for expiditor etc. and did the project legally. It does feel better to have a place that I know is completely up to code and legitimate.
As for the cost, I discovered all this when we had $5000 in escrow after closing, since there was a post-closing possession agreement where the owners could stay in the condo for an extra month. I got a few hundred bucks out of that, but nothing more. It was a huge pain, but now I love my condo!
You wouldn't be penalized for filing plans and doing work to bring an apartment up to code.
There's also a big difference between "outstanding DOB violations" and work done without a permit.
"You wouldn't be penalized for filing plans and doing work to bring an apartment up to code":
Try telling that to the Managing agent and the condo Board, after you close: "I was just helping the seller to continue keeping that a secret from you."
"There's also a big difference between "outstanding DOB violations" and work done without a permit.
Not in the case of the work done without a permit, in the unit Flutistic is describing.
If Flutistic had called the DOB, an inspector would come in and write up DOB violations. Any "fines" would then be the responsibility of the owner.
"You wouldn't be penalized for filing plans and doing work to bring an apartment up to code."
The building can require you to file for a DOB permit to do things like tear down walls (to bring it up to code), which depending on your point of view, could be interpreted as a penalty.
"There's also a big difference between "outstanding DOB violations" and work done without a permit."
If the OP had just filed for a permit to reverse the illegally done work, the DOB might not send in an inspector and write up a violation (which can be towards the building as well as owner, I believe). The DOB might just look at it and treat it like any other permit application, since it's not like they are comparing your architect's drawings to the "legal" or official drawings. My permit, where I was doing work to reverse the work done without a permit, was approved by the DOB very quickly, even though I had to go through many more hours of architect discussions etc.
Thanks again to everybody for your input.
The expediter who reviewed the details said an Alt 1 New Certificate of Occupancy would be required to construct the mezzanine in the apartment I viewed. She said it's a "long involved process" to get that. You need it because you're adding a floor to the building, it's not the same as adding a wall or partition.
Thanks again to engineers at Nodenyc.com, recommended for years on this board and for good reason.
My impression is that this was a secret build, which would be entirely possible in this small, no doorman building with super high ceilings and great soundproofing.
One wonders how the sprinkler system was affected--certainly the heads no long protect areas they were intended to reach--and whether the mezzanine has adequate structural support on its protruding edge, which has no supporting pillars, to prevent collapse. Not to mention the wiring of course.
No reputable contractor is going to do the build or the wiring without proper permits.
I had a very similar situation in an apartment (but it was a co-op) I was looking at. I also wasn't sure how the mezzanine was even classified. it wasn't "habitable" because the ceilings were just under 6 feet, but it was built as a small open "bedroom". Electrical had been run up into outlets there as well. The stairs were incredibly steep and in no universe were they up to code. My biggest concern was insurance denying claims because of it. Some people said, "stay away" and others believed it was incredibly common and not a big deal.
sp21: If the violation occurs in a building wide system (such as the gas main or ventilation system);
the managing agent receives the violation on behalf of the Condo Board.
If a violation results in damage to an apartment unit; the managing agent receives the violation on behalf of the Condo Board.
If the unit owner did some sneaky work without required permits, there is a unit in the Building not up-to-code. If the DOB is informed by the owner that he/she would like to remedy, the DOB will send an inspector to
inspect the unit and write-up any violations he observes (in addition to taking photos).
The condo Board will not use money from the cash reserve to pay for the owners fines, without charging the cost back to the owner.
unsure: The co-op corporation has the authority to inspect the apartment during and after reno is completed.
They have a fiduciary duty to make sure that the other shareholders' apartments and the Building are up-to-code and that hazardous conditions do not exist.
sp21: If you managed to avoid a visit from the DOB inspector, before and after the work, you may have been lucky.
Those DOB inspectors are the real deal. I've posted a comment on streeteasy about the DOB inspectors that came to my Condo unit (at my request) to inspect the mold that was caused by an unrepaired leak from one of the sponsor units above my apartment and the non-working ventilation in the bathroom.
The DOB inspectors have a badge they wear on their uniform shirt and they looked and acted like Marine Corp
drill Sarges.