I am replacing cabinets, flooring, counters, and appliances in my kitchen. I've submitted all required documentation for review by my cooperative. They refuse to approve the project until I submit the licenses for any plumber or electrician I use. I can understand that. However, they won't permit the plumber and electrician to be covered by my contractor's insurance as subcontractors. They are... [more]
I am replacing cabinets, flooring, counters, and appliances in my kitchen. I've submitted all required documentation for review by my cooperative. They refuse to approve the project until I submit the licenses for any plumber or electrician I use. I can understand that. However, they won't permit the plumber and electrician to be covered by my contractor's insurance as subcontractors. They are demanding that both the plumber and electrician submit workers comp and liability insurance with the liability at 2 million.
I am very upset because I just spent a bundle having the whole apartment rewired, including all the required work for the kitchen. There should be no need for the electrician to return unless he wants to plug in the appliances. He did submit his license and insurance for that project, but the insurance expired 1.5 months ago. So the electrician wants $1,000 to supply a new policy.
As for the plumber, the building is requiring that they send someone in to change the valves for my kitchen sink. They will not charge me for that service. But they want me to hire a plumber to attach the kitchen sink and dishwasher to the existing pipes. For a little job like this, the plumber wants $1,000 to cover his insurance plus the cost of whatever work he does.
Is this typical now? Subcontractors must provide their own insurance?
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Response by uptown_joe
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 293
Member since: Dec 2011
I am not surprised -- they are separate business entities and the general contractor's policy would not generally extend to them.
If the electrician is not actually required on this project just explain that to everyone. Plugging in appliances is not electrical work. Connecting anything hardwired (dishwasher? stove?) would be, though.
The $1000 to cover insurance is way inflated. There is some cost to issuing the certificates and adding you and your coop as additional insureds, but it should be closer to $100 than $1000. If this plumber does not normally carry the required levels of liability, and thus is buying the higher limit for this job, that might explain the figure. In that case switch plumbers to someone who already has the coverage -- sounds like you're not doing anything that would make you care who does that part of the work.
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Response by Primer05
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 2103
Member since: Jul 2009
jelj13,
This is the deal,
Some contractors, to save money tell their insurance company that they only paint. When they do that they do not cover any subs they hire and then you need the subs insurances.
A general contractor should really carry insurance that covers all subs and then you just need the contractor to submit their insurance.
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Response by jelj13
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 821
Member since: Sep 2011
Thanks for the info. I found out that the building will not permit insurance policies covering subcontracted electricians and plumbers. There have been some issues in the past. The coop feels all electricians and plumbers should have their own insurance anyway. In other places I've lived, the general contractor's insurance covering all subs was fine. There's no use fighting the system on this.
At the same time, the building is insisting that their plumber come in and replace the valves for the kitchen sink due to some problems throughout the building. There will be no charge for this. So we'll just have him do the rest of the work at the same time. (although I was told on the QT that the building staff installs sinks and dishwashers)
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Response by Primer05
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 2103
Member since: Jul 2009
Most plumbers and electricians have their own insurance. The electricians and plumbers I use give me their insurance and then I submit mine. To hear a building doesn't allow this is unbelievable to me. Not expecting means they would rather have a contractor who is just insured for painting then a General Contractor is is insured for everything.
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Response by jelj13
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 821
Member since: Sep 2011
If the contractor has a flooring company as a sub, they don't have to provide separate insurance. If the flooring company comes in without being under a general contractor, they do have to provide it.
What is really annoying is that I had a serious electrical problem last fall. I spent a bundle of money having this electrical firm replace the fuse box and rewiring the whole apartment. They added all the outlets, etc. I needed in preparation for the kitchen renovation this spring. The managing agent asked for a copy of my contract that mentions lighting under the cabinets, so they say I need an electrician. I can't reason with the managing agent that I don't really need an electrician now to do that since everything's in place already. So now I'm stuck with hiring the electrician back for trivial work that doesn't require an electrician.
I am not surprised -- they are separate business entities and the general contractor's policy would not generally extend to them.
If the electrician is not actually required on this project just explain that to everyone. Plugging in appliances is not electrical work. Connecting anything hardwired (dishwasher? stove?) would be, though.
The $1000 to cover insurance is way inflated. There is some cost to issuing the certificates and adding you and your coop as additional insureds, but it should be closer to $100 than $1000. If this plumber does not normally carry the required levels of liability, and thus is buying the higher limit for this job, that might explain the figure. In that case switch plumbers to someone who already has the coverage -- sounds like you're not doing anything that would make you care who does that part of the work.
jelj13,
This is the deal,
Some contractors, to save money tell their insurance company that they only paint. When they do that they do not cover any subs they hire and then you need the subs insurances.
A general contractor should really carry insurance that covers all subs and then you just need the contractor to submit their insurance.
Thanks for the info. I found out that the building will not permit insurance policies covering subcontracted electricians and plumbers. There have been some issues in the past. The coop feels all electricians and plumbers should have their own insurance anyway. In other places I've lived, the general contractor's insurance covering all subs was fine. There's no use fighting the system on this.
At the same time, the building is insisting that their plumber come in and replace the valves for the kitchen sink due to some problems throughout the building. There will be no charge for this. So we'll just have him do the rest of the work at the same time. (although I was told on the QT that the building staff installs sinks and dishwashers)
Most plumbers and electricians have their own insurance. The electricians and plumbers I use give me their insurance and then I submit mine. To hear a building doesn't allow this is unbelievable to me. Not expecting means they would rather have a contractor who is just insured for painting then a General Contractor is is insured for everything.
If the contractor has a flooring company as a sub, they don't have to provide separate insurance. If the flooring company comes in without being under a general contractor, they do have to provide it.
What is really annoying is that I had a serious electrical problem last fall. I spent a bundle of money having this electrical firm replace the fuse box and rewiring the whole apartment. They added all the outlets, etc. I needed in preparation for the kitchen renovation this spring. The managing agent asked for a copy of my contract that mentions lighting under the cabinets, so they say I need an electrician. I can't reason with the managing agent that I don't really need an electrician now to do that since everything's in place already. So now I'm stuck with hiring the electrician back for trivial work that doesn't require an electrician.