Hi everyone, I have to confess that I'm a views junkie, and I will only consider a high-floor unit with good views. My question to this distinguished and knowledgeable community is this: in general, what can a buyer do to research whether the views for a particular apartment will be "safe." Let's assume that the views are NOT legally protected. Also, let's assume that we're living in a market such... [more]
Hi everyone,
I have to confess that I'm a views junkie, and I will only consider a high-floor unit with good views.
My question to this distinguished and knowledgeable community is this: in general, what can a buyer do to research whether the views for a particular apartment will be "safe."
Let's assume that the views are NOT legally protected. Also, let's assume that we're living in a market such as the current one, in which lots of developers are trying to build new developments. Also, let's assume that the the view is NOT facing an empty lot. The view just faces some low-rise buildings that are currently used as rentals. (I think the above parameters would apply to the most general cases.)
So….Given the above hypotheticals:
1)How typical is the following scenario: a current (low-rise) residential rental building gets sold to a developer, the current tenants are asked to leave—all so a towering new development rises up?
2)Of course there are so many factors, so the real question is: how can a buyer research to see if the views for an apartment that he wants to buy will be "safe"? Do these facts come out when the buyer's lawyer does due diligence? (probably not--unless somehow this will be in the board minutes)
3)Since reviewing the condo or coop's documents won't provide a definitive answer, what can a real estate lawyer do research the safety of views for his/her client? Are there public records of new developments? Of buildings that might be torn down?
I am expecting to hear responses similar to this:
"There is really not that much you or your lawyer can do. Since your views are not legally protected (they do not, for example, overlook historical landmarks, etc.) you just have to accept the inherent risk of losing your view. That's what big city living is."
Or
"Move to Montana if you want safe views." LOL
Or
"Try to buy an apartment that overlooks a church or a (quiet) school. Most likely these buildings won't be torn down."
Or
"Whatever you and your lawyer can do in terms of diligence, at most you can only try to gauge what's coming up in the near future. After that, you just have to accept the risk and hope."
:-(
Please let me know any insights that you have.
Thanks a million.
C. Wolf
[less]
Response by crescent22
over 11 years ago
Posts: 953
Member since: Apr 2008
At a minimum, you have to get into the zoning for your building equivalent. Those two buildings map to C1-9 / R10A equivalents which state a 150 foot base height and a 210 foot total height on the setback. Not surprisingly, this matches heights on a recent area project- 200 E 79. That is what they CAN build- the question is would they and that depends on whether they can buy the lots that match the base opportunity allowed in the zoning as 200 E79 did with many parcels.
Then you ask how likely that is which is hard to know- you can perhaps figure out how long the retail has leases for which would prevent a new owner from chasing them out, presuming the retail stays in business.
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Response by alanhart
over 11 years ago
Posts: 12397
Member since: Feb 2007
DeBlasio is said to be pushing higher density development rather than light/air/coziness. So assume upzoning, to be safe.
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Response by NYCMatt
over 11 years ago
Posts: 7523
Member since: May 2009
Correct me if I'm wrong, but "due diligence" has nothing to do with what's going on with SURROUNDING buildings.
There are far too many variables in your hypothesis. We need more specifics. But it IS safe to say that in this current market, never assume anything about the future of any views in this city unless you're directly facing Central Park.
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Response by CoyWolf
over 11 years ago
Posts: 124
Member since: Jul 2007
thanks so much for your insights, everyone. I actually do have a specific building in mind, and I just found out that I won the bidding for the apartment! So I'm excited but also scared…. tossing and turning in my sleep so much that the sheets on my bed have come off: I've been scared sheetless!
OK, sorry: just a cheap pun for" comic" relief
Crescent: that's such a brilliant idea: " perhaps figure out how long the retail has leases for which would prevent a new owner from chasing them out, presuming the retail stays in business."
So, should I go to the restaurant and ask the owners? Retail leases aren't public records, are they?
At NYCMatt: are you sure that researching views is not really part of typical due diligence? (Yikes.)
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Response by alanhart
over 11 years ago
Posts: 12397
Member since: Feb 2007
Leases can be bought out.
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Response by Aaron2
over 11 years ago
Posts: 1705
Member since: Mar 2012
I would disagree about 'due diligence' not including surrounding buildings. It's not the legal 'due diligence' of the co-op or condo association, but it certainly should be factored in your purchase consideration, particularly if you're a 'views junkie'.
You should assume that everything that can be built on will be, eventually. I did a lot of research when I bought, as the unit was only a few floors above the rooflines of many neighboring buildings, and there's a lot-line window in the kitchen. An architect with zoning knowledge looked at the neighborhood zoning and advised on how high things could be built on all lots nearby, and he and my lawyer confirmed that the air rights of the building against the lot line had been transferred away to a nearby building (so my window is 'protected'). Given the area, I don't expect significant re-development to block my views (pretty heavily built already), but figured it would be worth knowing the current legal limits. I had done the preliminary analysis of air rights through ACRIS research.
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Response by Sonya_D
over 11 years ago
Posts: 547
Member since: Jan 2013
Aaron2, agreed. Due diligence, if done right, should definitely include inside and out. Example: if a new-to-NYC buyer is looking at a property that will have a waste management plant opening up a block away (or next door), I'd sure as hell want to know about it. If someone (broker, attorney, buyer themselves) don't take these things into consideration, then whoever is doing it ain't doing such a good job. (And of course, there are plenty of those who are lousy at there jobs out there too).
:)
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Response by CoyWolf
over 11 years ago
Posts: 124
Member since: Jul 2007
Hi everyone,
Just an update: it turns out that my real estate attorney does have experience researching whether views are protected. This is what he said: "One of the searches we will run is to look at what is called Floor Area Ratio (FAR) of these neighboring buildings to see if they have met or exceeded their allotted FAR and if they have the potential to build up, and if so, how much…"
I feel that I'm in good hands.
Thanks for your insights!
Please keep in mind, however, that buildings have the ability to buy air rights of other buildings or apply for a variance from the City. Consequently, there is never any guaranty in any building unless you buy on the park or the water, but this will give us a good sense of what these buildings can or cannot do at the current moment.
I will run the searches and get back to you with the results.
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Response by bfgross
over 11 years ago
Posts: 247
Member since: Jun 2007
Another lock is buying in a historical landmark district.
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Response by NYCMatt
over 11 years ago
Posts: 7523
Member since: May 2009
"at the current moment. "
In other words, even if your attorney is doing the extra mile in his "due diligence" TODAY ... the information may be completely worthless TOMORROW.
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Response by fieldschester
over 11 years ago
Posts: 3525
Member since: Jul 2013
Usually today has some relevance to tomorrow.
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Response by CoyWolf
over 11 years ago
Posts: 124
Member since: Jul 2007
By the way, city realty.com is a great website that gives a buyer, I think, fairly unbiased reviews. I was seriously interested in an apartment in this building, one whose views face North. But then I read the review here:
BOTTOM LINE
For many years, this handsome pre-war building benefitted from having churches on its north and south sides, which permitted it to have more “light and air” than most apartment houses on the avenue. However, the church on the north entered negotiations in 2013 with a developer to use its unused air rights.
At a minimum, you have to get into the zoning for your building equivalent. Those two buildings map to C1-9 / R10A equivalents which state a 150 foot base height and a 210 foot total height on the setback. Not surprisingly, this matches heights on a recent area project- 200 E 79. That is what they CAN build- the question is would they and that depends on whether they can buy the lots that match the base opportunity allowed in the zoning as 200 E79 did with many parcels.
Then you ask how likely that is which is hard to know- you can perhaps figure out how long the retail has leases for which would prevent a new owner from chasing them out, presuming the retail stays in business.
DeBlasio is said to be pushing higher density development rather than light/air/coziness. So assume upzoning, to be safe.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but "due diligence" has nothing to do with what's going on with SURROUNDING buildings.
There are far too many variables in your hypothesis. We need more specifics. But it IS safe to say that in this current market, never assume anything about the future of any views in this city unless you're directly facing Central Park.
thanks so much for your insights, everyone. I actually do have a specific building in mind, and I just found out that I won the bidding for the apartment! So I'm excited but also scared…. tossing and turning in my sleep so much that the sheets on my bed have come off: I've been scared sheetless!
OK, sorry: just a cheap pun for" comic" relief
Crescent: that's such a brilliant idea: " perhaps figure out how long the retail has leases for which would prevent a new owner from chasing them out, presuming the retail stays in business."
So, should I go to the restaurant and ask the owners? Retail leases aren't public records, are they?
At NYCMatt: are you sure that researching views is not really part of typical due diligence? (Yikes.)
Leases can be bought out.
I would disagree about 'due diligence' not including surrounding buildings. It's not the legal 'due diligence' of the co-op or condo association, but it certainly should be factored in your purchase consideration, particularly if you're a 'views junkie'.
You should assume that everything that can be built on will be, eventually. I did a lot of research when I bought, as the unit was only a few floors above the rooflines of many neighboring buildings, and there's a lot-line window in the kitchen. An architect with zoning knowledge looked at the neighborhood zoning and advised on how high things could be built on all lots nearby, and he and my lawyer confirmed that the air rights of the building against the lot line had been transferred away to a nearby building (so my window is 'protected'). Given the area, I don't expect significant re-development to block my views (pretty heavily built already), but figured it would be worth knowing the current legal limits. I had done the preliminary analysis of air rights through ACRIS research.
Aaron2, agreed. Due diligence, if done right, should definitely include inside and out. Example: if a new-to-NYC buyer is looking at a property that will have a waste management plant opening up a block away (or next door), I'd sure as hell want to know about it. If someone (broker, attorney, buyer themselves) don't take these things into consideration, then whoever is doing it ain't doing such a good job. (And of course, there are plenty of those who are lousy at there jobs out there too).
:)
Hi everyone,
Just an update: it turns out that my real estate attorney does have experience researching whether views are protected. This is what he said: "One of the searches we will run is to look at what is called Floor Area Ratio (FAR) of these neighboring buildings to see if they have met or exceeded their allotted FAR and if they have the potential to build up, and if so, how much…"
I feel that I'm in good hands.
Thanks for your insights!
Please keep in mind, however, that buildings have the ability to buy air rights of other buildings or apply for a variance from the City. Consequently, there is never any guaranty in any building unless you buy on the park or the water, but this will give us a good sense of what these buildings can or cannot do at the current moment.
I will run the searches and get back to you with the results.
Another lock is buying in a historical landmark district.
"at the current moment. "
In other words, even if your attorney is doing the extra mile in his "due diligence" TODAY ... the information may be completely worthless TOMORROW.
Usually today has some relevance to tomorrow.
By the way, city realty.com is a great website that gives a buyer, I think, fairly unbiased reviews. I was seriously interested in an apartment in this building, one whose views face North. But then I read the review here:
BOTTOM LINE
For many years, this handsome pre-war building benefitted from having churches on its north and south sides, which permitted it to have more “light and air” than most apartment houses on the avenue. However, the church on the north entered negotiations in 2013 with a developer to use its unused air rights.
For the full review, click here
http://www.cityrealty.com/nyc/carnegie-hill/1000-park-avenue/review/1589
A gentleman by the name of Carter Horsley
The photo is of 1020 Park.
Was it 8F at 1000 you were looking at? It now just clears the church and school, for a somewhat-open view, but will lose that. See http://streeteasy.com/talk/discussion/36548-extell-development85th-and-park
"Usually today has some relevance to tomorrow."
Until it doesn't.
In the long run, we will all be dead.