Comparison of Two Park Avenue Apartments

Whoops, didn't mean to post twice!

Wow! That was fun! I can honestly say that no one is ever again going to ask me my opinion on apartments in this price range, so here goes. I vote for #2. I like the openness of the living area/kitchen. I actually counted 6.5 bathrooms, not 5.5. And I like the closet space in the master. God bless you for having to make such a difficult decision. I'm sure either one will be amazing. Good luck and it will be fun to know which one you actually choose.

I'll focus on the question you asked: which one is a better value. Based on same-building comps (for 823) and a same-unit prior sale (for 502), I'd say 823 is slightly less overpriced. It's still about a million too high, unless the 11th floor is the point where one of the exposures clears a neighboring building. 502 is a flip, and I don't know anyone who thinks the market is up 10% in the past six months. Of course, the super-luxury sector is a world unto itself (see 15 CPW and the Plaza).

It's impossible to compare the apartments directly. The locations and layouts are too different. Those aspects come down to personal preference. With regard to the secondary bedrooms at 823, yes, they are tiny; I'm not a big fan of palatial rooms for children anyway.

I'd buy both and split my time between them or give one to my dog. Are you serious? You want help deciding which $14,000,000 apartment to buy?

why not?

kylewest: Nothing wrong with a rich person asking for advice (though I think somebody with that much money can pay for better advice than they're likely to get here). Anyway, the thread may be a joke, but as NYRENewbie said, it's fun to play "Lifestyles of the Rich and Richer".

Wow, if this is real, it's really fun/funny. But if you want opinions, sure: I think at this level, the price difference is negligible. I would go for the one on 75th street, it's much more of a neighborhood around there. 59th and park is very busy - the subway and bloomingdales are a block away, so you have a ton of people around. Of course, you make up for it with being in an incredibly convenient location, but I prefer neighborhood over convenience. Of course, Sherry Lehman is right at your footsteps with #2, but I'm guessing you buy your wine by the case and keep it in a cellar somewhere...

I actually have a question though. What's the obsession with Park Ave? I never quite understood why it is such a desirable address. I know it's got a lot of amaing apartments, but for that kind of money, I would think someone would want something more unique, on a less busy street, and with outdoor space. Why not look for something on a side street somewhere between 5th and Park? There are so many great blocks around there in the 60s and 70s.

I call BS.

shocking dco, really

I agree with evillager, I'd tend to go with 823 (although its obviously tough to compare), but I'm also wondering about the focus on Park Ave. I know its all personal pref and one person's best neighborhood in the city is another's no interest zone. That said, I just can't understand what's exciting about Park. It just seems for 14 mil, you could do some really interesting stuff and this seems so vanilla, but again I understand to each his own. good luck

I am not a fan of Park Ave (it is soooo 80's) but I am a fan of 75th and surrounding streets in the UES. I know you didn't ask this but my preference would be for 5th Ave over Park, something with a view and terrace as evillager pointed out.

I find it hard to believe that someone that is considering these two units is actually asking people for their opinion. I would think that if you have $14,000,000 to spend on a coop or condo on Park Ave that you wouldn't need the advise of this site.

Hey ccdevi- I'm looking at two bridges but couldn't decide. Either Brooklyn or Manhattan. Both have great views just don't know which is the better investment. give me a break.

I smell fishing by a broker to draw attention from other brokers. Just a theory but I'm also considering to buy a bridge.

dco: One is a BHS listing; the other is with Elliman. Why would a broker want to call attention to both?

Anyway, who cares whether the original poster is legit or not? We're just playing with $14MM in monopoly money here.

I just bought them both and will sell you either one for an extra mil.

dco, lighten up man. Have some fun, smell the roses, dream a little. What harm is there in giving an opinion?

ooh, I'll play, with the understanding that I can't directly answer the question since I am a REBNY member and I can really only say nice things about other people's listings.

One way in which these apartments differ is in the experience of entrance. 823, built in 1911, takes you through landing to foyer to living room, so its graciousness of entry is in the gradually expanding series of spaces. 502, built in 1929 (these buildings are both late conversions) is a harder floorplan to read, but it looks like you come straight into the gallery with a view out the window -- so its graciousness is in we call 'eyeshot.'

Think, the next time you walk-through, which experience of entrance you like better.

Secondly, put aside the size of the bedrooms for a moment, and think about their configuration. In 502, you have a master suite and a bedroom wing -- which might work well if your children are smaller. In 823, there's a bedroom that is set aside from the others -- which might work well if you often have guests. Similarly, 823 has a formal dining room, while 502's is open. How formally do you live? On a $14 million purchase, you should be buying the bones more than the finishes. Consider who you're going to put in the bedrooms, and how you like to dine, and that will help you decided which layout works better for you.

Thirdly, you can't move either of these apartments -- so what do you think of the areas, in terms of access to work and schools? 823 is definitely in a neighborhood with a more residential feel than that of 502 -- is that preferable to you? Or do you feel that the area that 502 is in is more "happening?"

I hope those three points help. I would simply finally add the rule that I give my buyers, which is that if you're making a decision between two candidates that you think are close, you will end up being happy with either choice.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

dco you've stated before that you don't even know anyone making more then 200k a year and you've shown again and again that it colors your thoughts, you simply can't comprehend anything or anyone outside your own financial level. yes compare a 14 mil apt to a bridge, because in your world they are roughly the same, and in your world the people who can afford such apts are bigger then life I suppose, its simply ridiculous to think they use the internet or post on message boards. you need to come to grips with the fact that there a lot of very wealthy people out there and many of them live relatively normal lives. they go to the bagel shop, they take the subway, they go to the park with their kids, and generally do all the things that other people do.

And what does "need" have to do with it. The guy is making a major decision and maybe he's feeling uneasy about it and wants as much advice as he can get. And maybe he's hung around this board long enough to know that there are a lot of smart sincere people here who have strong opinions on real estate. maybe it is a hoax, anything on this board could be, I'm still waiting for you, steve and the rest to fess up, but no reason to assume it just because you can't fathom anybody actually have some real money.

then as others have said, who cares, even if its just a dream, have fun dreaming

ccdevi- There is one born every minute.

Things must be slow for all you brokers to make believe that you have a 14M listing. I guess were trying to go back in time to the good old days when everything sold high and fast. I guess Manhattan really is Fantasy Island.

you are so sad, I can't even imagine your existence

dco, you are a loser

Maybe I'm confused, but what would a broker have to gain from posting this? Any listing highlighted here has as much (or more) chance of being bashed as being praised. It could still be fake, but who cares? It's fun to look at nice apartments.

Clearly, both apartments have some real issues, or else they wouldn't have been on the market this long. January 2006 - that is shocking, especially since in Spring 2007, high end apartments like this were selling at a rapid pace. Perhaps those prices are $5 million higher than what comparable apartments are going for. Maybe there's no view, or maybe the maintenance is too high. Did something bad happen in them, or do people not want to live on Park anymore? I don't get it...fill us in, please!

I don't think there's anything wrong with 823, its effectively a new development, a gut renovation of the building, and all apts seem to have sold except this, this is the last one left. Maybe its somewhat overpriced compared to some others in the building.

You might be right about the other place, the Trump. It looks like its priced in the same general range as others that have sold in that building in the last 6 months. Maybe it just doesn't show well and is also somewhat overpriced.

Yes, Park Avenue is "soooo 80's". 1880's.

My recommendation is spend 3m on an apartment and take the 10m and build housing for people who are in need, south bronx, etc. Do you really need a 13m apartment.

Thank you all for your suggestions, I don't understand what dco's problem is, I'm definitely not a broker... anyway, I wasn't only looking at Park Avenue, the reason I chose these two is because they are both condos, I don't want a coop and they are both full floors. If you guys know of anything else you want to suggest, feel free, I like to hear what other people think. Also, I do have other people helping me with this purchase, however, once in a while, I like to know other people's thought just because it's interesting to know other people's perspectives, I didn't realize that was such a big deal to ask a question dco, why don't you get a life? Last time I checked, this was a public forum and I can ask whatever I want, no one said you had to answer.

You may have picked it up, but is still smells.

ParkAve just ignore him, if you spend any time around this board you'll see that he's a complete joke, he more or less just dumps on everything, every thread, he's miserable and he wants everyone else to be too.

Good luck with your search. Two things I'll throw out. One, pick where you want to be then look for a place, with that kind of money you'll have great choices. Second, have you considered buying 2 (or more) smaller apts and putting them together, for instance in a new development? If you have time and patience for renovation you might think about that.

Ali, your thoughts on "the experience of entrance" were poetic. It started me thinking on my own:

"Upon circumventing throngs of meatheads gracing my doorway with their cigarette smoke and cellphone conversations, I cross into the building's grand foyer where my eyes fall upon mailboxes and recycling cans. I ascend the treacherously worn stone steps two floors to my abode, taking in the airshaft view..."

ccdevi- Maybe you and ParkAve can get together and figure out a way to stop the economy from sliding into a disaster. I mean after all you like to fantasize.

dco maybe you should jump up your own ass and die. I'm not fantasizing... did you ever consider that you may be jealous? Like I said in my first post, if you don't have anything beneficial to say, keep it to yourself.

ParkAvenue- Ok you convinced me. You should buy the first one. Is that what you want to hear. Great know you and ccdevi can get over yourselves and fantasize about 20M Brownstones. Good Luck

dco, please do everyone a favor and maroon yourself on a desert island with stevehjx, you both are cynical assholes anyway. You can belittle him because of your own insecurities while he makes arguments about nothing and pulls numbers out of his ass. That would be grand.

P.S. I already live in a brownstone, well, I would call it a townhouse, so I don't need to fantasize. Prick.

parkave, really don't pay attention to dco. like I said, if you like nyc real estate, it's fun to look at nice apts, so I think most people liked this thread (well I did anyway). and I wasn't trying to dump on your choices, I am actually just very curious why park ave is so in demand, when some other options seem a bit more appealing to me if I were looking in the >$10 m range.

one final suggestion...don't get baited into trading insults with people on these boards, so matter how nasty they get. I'm guilty of that myself, and honestly it just didn't make me feel any better, and if anything probably made me come across like a jerk too.

tenemental,

*grin*

ali

Thanks evillager, I put dco on ignore anyway because he's an immature fool and I now regret getting caught up in the unnecessary insult flinging and, for that, I apologize for losing my temper. Anyway, you didn't dump on my choices, I wanted your honest opinion and I am appreciative of it. For me, the reason why I am looking at Park Avenue is because I feel that Park Avenue never loses its value and, in this market, I do worry about making a bad purchase and having the value of the condo depreciate. Also, the others sold in the building we sold at asking price. I think for others, it's about status, but you have to buy in the really prestigious coops on Park to get that and I don't want a coop anyway. I'm not really looking for the status, what attracted me to it is the fact that it's a pre-war but practically new construction and it's a condo. There are very few practically new pre-war condos on the upper east side so I was actually limited to looking on Park Avenue. The only other was the Stanhope and that's a condop with a nasty land lease. It seems to me that people feel as though they've arrived once they have a Park Avenue home. That's what I think at least.

ParkAve, as soon as you mentioned wanting a condo, it all made sense. Not many in that area. Good luck with your search. You mentioned you live is a brownstone now, are you moving because of the the amount of work it takes to maintain it or just ready to move on? I've lived in a brownstone and the maintenance was a drag. Not the cost, but the fact that I had to do all of it myself.

That's one of my main reasons, I want to simplify my life. I've been in my townhouse for years and I think it's just time to move on. Also, I feel like every time one thing is repaired, another thing needs to be repaired. Not major things, just little annoying things. My main reason for wanting a condo is because I don't want to deal with coop boards because they are very discriminatory and I'd rather save myself the aggravation. That's my story.

evillager: "...and if anything probably made me come across like a jerk too."

Nah. I was happy you stuck up for yourself. Espressos on me.

Tenemental, very poetic! I think you have a untapped talent for writing real estate blurbs. Well done!

Makes sense re: wanting a condo and park ave holding its value. I had similar reasons for wanting a new development condo, and also having some features that I think will make my apartment's value hold a little better in the case of a soft market (which in my case is being on the top floor and having a decent-sized outdoor space).

I can definitely see a draw to Park Ave. There is a reason it got it's status in the first place. In the midst of a bustling city, Park Avenue has pretty much no commercial activity whatsoever. The avenue is usually divided by flowerbeds which bloom throughout the spring and summer. It's a wide avenue which permits the abutting apartments to have lots of light. There is a uniformity (in both height, style and upscale amenities) amongst the buildings that doesn't exist in the rest of the city. It's close to Central Park but also close to the subway. It's pretty much a little upscale residential enclave which is well situated to the park, the best public and private schools and transportation. That's why it will hold its value. I can definitely appreciate your desire ParkAvenue.

Thanks, NYRENewbie.

well now that you put it that way joepa maybe I'll start looking on Park. seriously though, well said.

ParkAvenue..how about something like this??
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/52844-condo-161-west-61st-street-lincoln-square-new-york

Totally different neighborhood, but the views are killer...and if you're going from a townhouse to something different, you may just want to make a BIG change and see the city from higher-up...just a thought...

Now your talkin grunty. Good stuff.

That is a nice one grunty. Even if you put down 20%, your monthly nut on that thing is close to $80,000. I can't even process those numbers.

You can probably rent it for Half (40,000).

I bet Grunty doesn't even care about the apartment. (S)he just admires the chutzpah of a $1.7MM price increase in the middle of a credit crunch. :o)

I live in 502 Park. Nice building; sponsor is asking too much for those units. Building services are great for the most part. you've got a dedicated PH elevator for the top-10 floors (all coined "PH" in typical developer BS Lingo). However - $3,200 psf is way too much. This is a great building, but it's not 15 CPW. The other building comps support max pricing of $2,500. The true penthouse (floors 30 & 31) has sat vacant for almost four years, and they continue to raise the price.

I just have a thing for Trump so that building would be an automatic 'NO' for me. That penthouse is a delight, isn't it? It's like Tara gone wrong - WAY wrong!

Hey jss, how do you feel about 502 Park's neighborhood? Also, do you rent in the building or do you own?

My office has been at 59th and Park for the past ten years, which may not be as relevant as living there, but I have nevertheless learned a bit about the neighborhood. The building is at a pretty sharp divide between an alomost exclusively commercial Park Avenue that rapidly moves to nearly all residential. It makes it a very busy neighborhood just due to the sheer volume of office workers together with all the shoppers brought there by the high concentration of high end retail. There is also a lot of vehicular traffic as well due to bridge related traffic.

If you like to shop for china, art, wine, and hand blown glass, and like to dine at Le Cirque, L'Atelier, BLT Steak, and The Four Seasons, it is a fantastic neighborhood.

If you want to relax in a coffee shop, go pick up some organic goat cheese, have an alteration made to a garment, or go pick up something from a bakery, you will probably have to travel further in this neighborhood than you would further north since so many of the neighborhood businesses are focused on serving the needs of the commercial building occupants and serving the luxury goods market rather than serving the needs of the neighborhood residents. I think the closest general grocery store is at 63rd and Third Avenue, although Delmonico's nearly next door has a lot of odds and ends.

A lot of the business in the neighborhood (including food service establishments) close at 5 since they think of their business as tied to luxury retail and/or the commercial building occupants. You might want to make a point of walking around the neighborhood early evening, because it has a very different feel after the businesses have closed up shop.

ParkAve - I own. The neighborhood is very convenient for transportation, work, shopping, etc. but it's definitely NOT a UES feel. The 59th vehicle traffic doesn't really bother me. The people traffic DOES get heavy on sunny saturdays. The retail bank in the lobby is a real shame.