Renovation budgeting

what are you looking to do exactly, how big is the place, we just completed a complete gut reno of a classic six. may be able to help you

bem9,

I don't know if you can get a figure off that information. There are many variables. Feel free to call me and I can break it down for you in a pretty basic way. 646-435-3942

typo, 646-436-3942

not looking for an actual figure, just percentages. ie, for a gut renovation, how much of my budget should go to the design/architect vs GC vs other costs like filing, mechanical engineer, etc?

Bem9,
We just completed a substantial gut reno of a 1900 sq ft prewar (new floors, kitchen, baths, windows, Central Air, moved some walls, substantial millwork in three rooms, electrical upgrades, AV system, skim coat, top of the line appliances etc. Roughly 80 pct was GC, 15 percent was architect and the other 5 was filing, expediting, engineering and other random charges. But Im not sure what that information does for you. IF you are doing a major renovation the GC is always going to be the vast majority of the expense... Is this all you really want to know?

Impossible to answer, it depends on what you are paying your architect for. Some architects charge a flat fee, some charge by the hour, some charge by a % of the job. What is the mechanical engineer for?

I do not know if there is a formula that will give you a %. I have worked on projects that were 750k where the architect got 20K and I have worked on projects for 750 where the architect got 150k.

Bem,

Impossible to answer without more information.

bjgross, that helps actually because i want to do a similar project. primer05, i need an architect to do all the drawings, sibmissions, and file, but i also need someone to design, whether that's the architect or a separate interior designer. i'm told i need a mechanical engineer for hvac. for projects where the architect gets 20k and the project is 750k, who is doing the designing?

bfgross, we are about to do a very similar scope of work on a classic 6. We are at the preliminary stage of selecting an architect. If you don't mind, I would love to chat with you about your whole experience. This is our first time doing reno. Please email me at chen36@hotmail.com. Really appreciate it. Thanks.

ado06, i'd love to know what you're thinking in terms of selecting an architect as well. are you going to get a designer or just an architect? bfgross, can i ask you what you ended up spending on the entire renovation?

Bem,

For those that go with the architect for 20K it really does not involve any work. Either my clients picked out their own finishes with our help or hired a separate designer. Obviously you can also hire an architect tot do both but it is more expensive.

bem9: around $1.35mm
Ado6 will email you privately

Bem09:
If your architect is costing you 20k, obviously he isn't helping design anything, he's just stamping drawings and filings, you will either need to design the apartment yourself, hire an interior designer ( we did) or I guess try to work with a GC who can help you with that. But for that price you aren't going to be getting anything more than drawings. You also aren't going to be getting contraction oversight. Not the route we went at all, but some people are obviously comfortable with that.

typ0: construction oversight

>bfgross- just want to make sure I understand - you spent $700+/sf?

Just for the renovation ? Excluding furnishings, etc.?

ph41: yes, we hired a full service architect and were billed separately for engineering fees, expediter, city filing fees, coop architect fees etc. the number includes all of that.

I recently completed a similar gut reno of a 2200 sf pre-war coop and only spent a little under $400 psf total. GC came in a little under 300 psf, and that included new central air for which they brought in the sub. The architect charged 18% of the project, and for that fee, they oversaw design and supervised the project (extensively, since I was living halfway across the country at the time). Additional fees for the coop, building engineer, expeditor, and DOB were separate and came to about 20K. I don't feel like any corners were cut or that I had to give up anything that was really important to me, and I am very happy with my apartment. I hope that helps.

Sorry, I meant a little over 300 psf for the GC.

alex:
Im actually pretty surprised anyone could do as substantial a renovation as we did in 2015 for 300/sqft (for the GC) even if the quality of the finishes was substantially lower than what we did.
Did you do new floors, windows, kitchen, baths? Did you replace all the moldings? HOw much millwork/built ins did you do? Did the GC perform all the work besides the HVAC?
WHere is your coop located?

Yes floors, which also needed leveling in areas, windows, kitchen, baths, moldings. Millwork included a full wall of built-ins in the living room, an obviously smaller wall in the office, custom cabinets in the kitchen and master bath, and radiator covers. However, my aesthetic is fairly simple, so I would compare my finishes to Doric rather than Corinthian. Some of the materials that I preferred, like standard 2.25 oak flooring and Carrara, were luckily for me less expensive than the alternatives as well... I laughed that it was the first time in my life I actually gravitated towards anything other than the most expensive possible! Coop is in the historic district of Brooklyn Heights, so we briefly had to deal with the landmarks commission as well.

may i ask who was your GC?

@bfgross- and where is YOUR coop located?

collegiate landmark area of UWS

.?????

Oh, got it - Washington Heights, less pompous way to say it. LOL!

It's just about everything between Broadway and Riverside, from 70th to 79th. The original area was around the Collegiate Church/School at WEA and 77th.

70s and WEA

Thanks NWT

I don't know how to PM but am happy to share information on my architect and GC with anyone looking to do a similar project. I was pleased with both; they were very accommodating of my wishes and budget, the work was excellent quality, and final cost even with the usual surprises that emerge was within 5% of the initial contract.

@ph41 - in addition to thanking nwt, how about apologizing to bfgross for a totally obnoxious and ignorant comment.

bfgroos,

Who did all the purchasing on your project? For 700 sq ft I assume the GC purchased and was responsible for everything?

I don't think it is that difficult to do a full gut renovation for $300-400 sq ft

primer: yes the GC was responsible for everything with the exception of the appliances and tile, which we purchased separately, not wanting to pay the extra GC and architect fees on those items. Both our architect and GC were fine with us doing that.

bfgross, how much of the gc cost went to going with particular finishes? ie, if you had gone with less expensive finishes, how much could you have saved?

alexi and bfgross, how do you go about hiring a mechanical engineer - did you find someone separately or did your architect/designer recommend someone?

bem9: i didn't hire the mechanical engineer, my architect did, he had a prior relationship.
As far as savings due to less expensive finishes, I think it would have made a difference but not necessarily as much as you might think. For example, using ceramic tiles versus thassos marble in the master bath, or engineered wood floor versus white oak, or cheap appliances versus the high end ones we got? Maybe the bill would have been 10% less. Remember the labor is basically the same whether you use cheap products or fancy ones, and labor costs and profit comprise more than 60% of the bill from your GC

thanks bfgross, that is what i was wondering.

@bem9, I actually hired the architect first and then the GC for the exact reason that I wanted them to oversee the engineering issues which I anticipated in purchasing an estate sale in a prewar. They did a great job with that, and my team never needed to hire a mechanical engineer specifically. My building required consultation with their own engineering firm at various stages, so we complied with that. For my N=1, I would say you can hire your architect/GC first and then see if they need an engineer rather than trying to find one independently.

bfgroos,

I agree with most of what you are saying but the difference between hi end finishes and less expensive finishes are a great deal more than 10%.
Subzero: 8-10k
GE Profile: 2-3K
Viking stove: 5k
GE Stove :2k

Porcelain tile: 5-8 sq ft
Natural stone : 12-25 sq ft

Cabinets:

From a hi end store: 50-100k
Custom: 40-70
Ikea: 2,500-7,500

There is a huge savings on less expensive finishes.

Subzero fridge: $

primer: i didn't say the difference between high end finishes and low end finishes was 10%. You didn't read the thread. Bem asked what the difference off the TOTAL GC bill would have been with lower end finishes rather than higher end ones. I explained that most of the GCs bill was comprised of labor and profit margin.

If you do a gut renovation and the GC bill is 1MM, your labor is going to comprise 60% profit another 15% leaving maybe 25% for materials, so I could spend 250k for really high end and the next guy could spend 150k, saving 40% off my spend, but the total bill savings might only be 10%. Got it?

@bfgross - Thank you for sharing your experience. Your experience is consistent with mine (much smaller scale); the materials are nothing compared to the labor. When you are doing a renovation of the scale you are talking about, why penny pinch on the finishes? It would be like ordering a diet coke with a big mac or putting flimsy tires on a high performance automobile.

I fall somewhat between Primer05 and bfgross. While labor is labor and materials are only a proportion of the total bill, I am pretty sure my contractor charged "profit and overhead" as a percentage of the entire contract, so there would be a bit of a ripple effect for expensive finishes. Also, it's not as if there's nothing between La Cornue and Waterworks on the one hand and Kmart on the other... I take exception to my renovation being compared to a diet coke, lol! I think a better comparison is a Porsche 911 vs a Bugatti Veyron.

I agree with you multi: I actually saw part of the expenditures on fancier finishes as a bit of an insurance policy. If I need to move in 5 or 10 years those things will matter on resale. If I spend 25 years there it won't matter bc a buyer will most rip them out regardless. Meanwhile I get to enjoy them and my personal utility curve tends toward the higher quality finishes. Alex:: I agree there is a middle ground too obviously but for me I didn't think the savings was worth it between good and outstanding, especially not in my neighborhood.

My calculations were a little different. Based on Streeteasy's comparables tool, my apartment is already worth about 20% more than I spent all in, whereas if my renovation had cost twice as much, I would still be upside down. I agree that these differences diminish over time and that as long as you can afford it, you should choose what makes you happy and not worry about ROI. Tastes vary, and you can never count on someone else valuing the same things as you do. Any way, my main point in posting was not to argue over whose taste is more refined but just to respond to the OP's original question with my experience so that he/she can consider the various alternatives for a project of this scale.

We charge a % of the whole project. Generally 3% generally conditions, 12% overhead and profit and 3% for insurance. It all adds up

@alexikeguchi - My diet coke comment was not aimed at your renovation: I was merely agreeing with bfgross's thinking on his math. It was similar to mine. My renovation did not include the highest end finishes by a long shot; it was just that when choosing between appliances and tiles, etc., I could have spent half as much as I actually did on less expensive ones, but as a percentage of what I was spending in total, I just decided to add the metaphorical milkshake. In terms of quality, I am certain neither my apartment nor my renovation compare to bfgross's; in my case, I should probably say that I decided upgrade the water that I was planning to drink with my salad to a diet coke once the meal began.

primer, can you tell me what percent of the GC cost will be labor vs profit vs materials? is insurance considered part of labor? and what is the 3% general conditions?

multicityresident, be a mind sticker.

bem9,

Each project is different in regards to profit vs labor and material. It has too any variables to get into. I do not consider insurance as labor, General conditions are things like project management, site management, handling of materials (side walk deliveries)

so lets say i spend 1mill total on GC. can i expect that 500k goes to labor, 120k goes to profit, 30k for insurance, 30, for general conditions, leaving 320k for materials? is there another cost i need to account for? and then architect/designer is in the ballpark of 150k-200k on top of that, and other consultants and fees are another 20k?

We did total gut on 3br/3bth. Our biggest savings came from shopping for a gc. we got about six quotes, with the high end being double what our low bid was. Some of the quotes were nuts, large numbers, few line items /details.
One quote went nuts with line items for everything i.e $500 stick on smoke detectors. At times paying high will get you better finish, but imho many times are just overpaying. We went with contractor with just about lowest quote and his work was top of the line. We have real estate agents come thru our apt, and they are amazed at fit/finish

Bem,

What exactly are you trying to figure out? 1st thing is find an architect you are comfortable with, meet several, hire one of them, he will give you plans and you can discuss budgets with him. Then find several contractors to bid on the plans and see what prices they come in at. Saying your renovation is 1 mil doesn't say what the scope of work is nor can you know how much the labor will be. One contractor can pay their carpenters $1800 a week and another can pay $800 a week. Why does it matter what the contractors profit will be? Just curious

Knewbie,

You are lucky one. I get calls weekly from people asking for my help after they hired the cheapest guy. They are normally the cheapest for a reason. I am not saying to go with the highest but you are the 1st one I have heard of going with the cheapest and getting a good result

Primer: We went with the cheapest and got a good result. However we only got bids from very reputable, high end guys and the main reason the cheapest was the cheapest was that our architect gives him a lot of business and was able to successfully negotiate him to a price that became cheaper than the rest. That being said, there is a huge difference between high quality and low quality, the good news is that only people like you are going to be able to tell the difference easily and quickly, most non-professionals cant.

bfgross,

Agreed. If you are choosing the least expensive and they do the same quality work then thats great. Normally people will get bids that are all over the place but they do very different work. I think most people can tell the difference between hi end and low end.

There have been a couple of threads recently that got no response questioning permit charges that ostensibly arose after the renovation began. I think it is important to work with a contractor who has done renovations in buildings similar to whatever your building is because they know what the building will require. The contractor we chose broke out anticipated electrical and plumbing charges in advance and was spot on in terms of what our building required. Our contractor estimates did not vary by much, but chosen contractor's attention to this detail was appreciated in hindsight reading posts by people who were blindsided by these charges and then at contractor's mercy when building required items that had not been included in estimate. Whether you choose a designer or architect to design the apartment, make sure you nail down everything you know will need before the project begins b/c as a practical matter you will be married to whichever contractor you choose and the contractor will have all the leverage in terms of pricing change orders once the project has begun (this is renovation 101, and you may already know that so just ignore anything obvious I am stating). Also, design pricing models are all over the place (percentage of project, hourly, percentage of items purchased), so make sure you do your homework there. I had one designer who proposed services that would cost percentage of total project, plus hourly charges, plus percentage of items purchased - I cannot believe anybody pays that, but I really don't know. My point is that there are so many variables and opportunities for bumps along the way that I think the most important thing is to vet all service professionals thoroughly in advance and go with ones whose past projects are in line with what you are contemplating. Experience with your particular building can also be a plus.

There are a lot of threads on renovation that get no response and it has driven certain people to have to create multiple user names under which to ask questions, with slight variations in the question but typically consistent tone and style that held identify them.

primer, i guess i'm just trying to get an idea of what to expect. i am hearing a wide range of cost/price and i'm trying to best understand where the money is going so i can figure out if there's any practical way for me to budget and save.

knewbie do you mind sharing who your gc was? also was your renovation in manhattan? how many square feet and what did you end up spending?

bfgross i'd love to know who your gc was as well.

gothamsboro, i totally agree. i'm actually really happy that people are responding to my post. everyone's input here has been helpful to me. i have never thought to change my user name in order to ask the same question. i figure, if i have to ask something again, i'll just ask it again and hope that more people are on streeteasy when i ask it.

I also totally agree, huntersberg. So stop doing so.

Don't be a mind sticker.

Bem9: what is your email address? I would rather pm you offline than share details publicly

Bem9,

http://classicoconstructionllc.com/about_us.htm

UES, 3br 3 bth ,total gut incl kitchen, high end finish + new 5 inch plank hardwood floors. 1 wall removal approx 2200sf. We did not use a designer (picked all our own tile/fixtures)+ we paid architect a fixed fee , approx 8% including all permits/filings.We had outside kitchen designer, Majestic Kitchen/Pat, ck them out on Houzz. Also excellent.
Both GC and Kitchen designer are in Westchester county, but are licensed/insured for NYC. I think part of the reason
I saved a good deal is that many just look for local /NYC GC's thinking they know better the ins and outs. That may be true on a very complicated project, but these guys handled my 3br total gut without a hitch + they have worked on numerous NYC projects.

Bem9,

Really the best way is to have contractor come to the site and go over your project with. There are so many places to save. I would be more then happy to go over it with you

bfgross, can you email me at ghkim9@yahoo.com?

wongepea, than you for sharing your experience. i often wonder how much i need to invest in the design aspect, whether its an interior designer or an architect who is doing the designing. i will keep your gc on my list. primer, when i get closer to pulling this project together, i will contact you.