The Excelsior, 303 east 57th St.

i think the land lease expires this summer, so maintance is going to sky rocket...

i also heard the co-op board has no reserve to deal with the lease negotiations.

Would not touch a land lease building. And the land lease expires this summer, maintenance already high and supposedly no reserves. Should run away a fast as you can.

I am looking at the building but I don't understand why the maintenance will skyrocket. Would someone explain it? Is it a great building? My realtor says it is.

even for free who would buy a unit you could never sell?

I would be willing to buy this apt for free, $12K maintenance notwithstanding:

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/631663-coop-303-east-57th-street-sutton-place-new-york

Free is closer to the closing price than 7.9M
Lot closer

"...Is it a great building? My realtor says it is..."

Oy. Vey.

does anyone know when the lease of this building expires?
how often does the maintenance fluctuate?

Buyer beware. This is effectively broke. In my opinion they use the reverse psychology of "you may not be good enough for the building" (i.e. the allure of exclusivity) to draw you in, yet you are buying effectively a liability (at most you are "buying" a rental, an oxymoron if you follow my logic). Based on how difficult they make it to appear to get in, I imagine to sell a place like this must be a nightmare. Watch out, and really read the financials, understand what is really going on. I believe you are much better off paying normal market prices and buying into a financially sound investment.

horror show everyone savvy knows it

why

When this thread was first posted 5 years ago people said you could never sell these apartments. Here we are 5 years later and plenty of apartments have been sold since then. The maintenance is high but the apartments are huge, many with balconies. Top notch services, great midtown location and the prices have gone up at least 20% in the past five years. So much for the geniuses on this board.

MARKET DATA 303 East 57th
15 active sales listings: $742 per ft² (avg)
3 active rentals listings: $55 per ft² (avg)
14 previous sales listings: $485 per ft² (avg in the last 180 days)
2 previous rentals listings: $5,200 (avg price)
8 recorded sales: $693,000 (avg price in the last 180 days)

Selling at less than half the $ per sq ft($485) of the market's average price per sq ft (DE Q4 co-ops $1029) in manhattan is hardly a counter argument to the "geniuses of the board."

Considering this is pretty much the price at the other expiring land lease building on west 23rd st, top notch services doesnt seem to be the #1 priority.

We all know that land lease apartments will have high maintenance and lower prices, that was true 5 years ago and it is today. The original thesis was that they can't be sold which hasn't been the case, and yes prices have gone up over the past 5 years, as I said above.

5 years from now people will still be buying because the apartments are large and airy, top notch building services and great midtown neighborhood.
The profits of doom are probably living in 4th floor walk-ups. LOL!

Seriously "profits"?

PROPHETS of doom certainly have veen on this board for years.

"PROPHETS of doom certainly have veen on this board for years."

Good catch! LOL!!

"VEEN" ??

You know what they say about glass houses. LOL!

>RE - A typo is one thing - ignorance is another.

ph41: Stop being such an a**, if you have anything to contribute to the topic let us know. Otherwise scram.

I am a buyer I have done my homework. The building is one of the nicest in NYC. the land lease expires in 2064. 50 years from now, then the board will most certainly figure out what to do. most of Battary park city is a Land Lease. The building has super strong reserves they , have not raised the maintance for capital improvements. I have spent copuntless hours reviewing the entire land lease and the ups and downs. Honestly I cant wait to close this is the best deal in NYC in one of the most expensive zip codes. train is a short walk, Whole Foods across the street with most shopping close by . The building is strict on Income, assets and reserves, They have no defalts on Maintainance or Mortgages in Building. Banks will finance, with 25% down however the building requires 50% down. Look at the history units are in contract and they have a closings every month. Prices are going up. Prices are way under 1000 a square foot. The Gym is deeply discounted for unit owners the roof deck is lovely, the staff is super friendly and the people moving in are very cool, The haters should take a deep breath and take a second look. they clearly have no idea what they are talking about.

Congratulations, I guess. Let's hope the bargain you say you got, really is.

"The board will figure out what to do" in 2064? The co-op in 2064 will have no bargaining power. It won't own anything and the lease will have expired. It'll be competing with everyone else who can pay more for use of the land. Right now, at a conservative $600 per buildable square foot, the land is worth about $200,000,000. You're paying rent on your share of that. Lots of people here say that renting is always better than owning, so you're halfway there.

There're lots of land-lease discussions here, and everybody'd like to know, just out of curiousity, how you ran your numbers. Everything has a price, so how did you arrive at the one you paid?

A couple of the key points that people like Amber are unaware of, or won't face up to:

A. Banks won't lend when there's less than 30 years left on the land lease. That makes 2034 the absolute drop-dead where any resale is concerned, not 2064. The pool of potential buyers is the all-cash crowd.

B. As 2034 approaches, due diligence will take into account the near total lack of saleability -- those who pay cash but also understand that they could have a frozen asset for their money. I'd say a reasonable person's cutoff for that would be about 15 years ahead of 2034. So it's nearly worthless beginning in 2019.

Oops, I shouldn't have said the co-op is paying rent based on a land value of $200,000,000. The current rent was set in 2007, based on $171,000,000, or $490 per ft².

What did you forecast for the next appraisal, in 2017? Land in the neighborhood is going now for up to $800.

Given the co-op's history of fruitlessly suing the landowner, trying to interpret the lease as meaning other than what it says, I wouldn't expect any concessions or cash gifts from the landowner's heirs in 2064.

The Excelsior is one of my favorite buildings for many reasons. The main reason is the land lease. Like most posters on the board I wouldn't purchase an apartment in the building unless the it was practically given to me and then I would assess it as a rental to myself. The real story is the details behind the original lease. The idea that someone would create an extraordinary investment vehicle that comes to fruition long after their death is what fascinates me. Think about it, in 2064 the owner of this property will have to make a business decision. Do I lease this property to the highest bidder, do I sell this property to the highest bidder or do I take a huge financial loss so the current lessee will not be financially unconvinced.
I know what I would do....

Me too!

Or think of Mr. Kern back in the 1960s. He could've sold the whole shebang, but, sort of like Scarlett O'Hara gazing into the sunset and gnawing a turnip, decided to hold onto it. Maybe he'd have been better off selling and putting the money elsewhere, or maybe not, but now his widow and descendants are raking in more than $10,000,000 per year.

NWT,
I always thought this would make a great reading. All the minutia that made the deal in the first place plus how it has worked out up to today. Perhaps a collection of short stories where each chapter tells the tale of another land lease deal in all it's glory. Wonder which section it would end up in at Barns and Noble?
Cautionary tales or horror stories...

i love these forums...... thanks guys.

Anything new going on with this building?

It's kind of interesting how many of the listings in this building overstate the number of bedrooms.

Anyone posting here saying this is a good buy is either trying to sell a unit or is a broker trying to sell a unit. I will say a prayer for all involved.

The apartments also have a balcony which is very valuable commodity. The way I look at it is you can live in a beautiful apartment that would normally cost close to $1M and instead of paying the mortgage you pay higher maintenance. The circular driveway in the front is so helpful when you need to unload anything. Everyone is extremely helpful and you feel insanely safe in the building. We love being Owners. Well worth the higher maintenance. We live for today and love living in the Excelsior!

Tws is a shill.

I dont understand anyone who would be ok paying 9K / month in maintenance and taxes for a 1.3MIL apt. Practically just throwing money away....Oy.

I have lived in the excelsior for 8 years. Looking to buy back in the building, just a little bit larger of a unit. I disagree with all the posts above:
1. The building doormen are amazing, so helpful, full service (gym in building, parking garage attached)- All the doormen go above and beyond to help you at all times!
2. The maintenance yes is a LITTLE bit higher than a condo- but you have to remember that TAXES are included in this (which btw im sure you know is 40% deductible)
I do not see many units in manhattan with such large sizes (1 bedroom at almost 1200 sq ft and studio at 800), Walk in closets, LARGE balcony/terrace. & Very large bathrooms.
In addition the building is WELL kept, its DOG/pet friendly... and its immaculate.
I highly disagree with anything mentioned here. If you are moving to Manhattan- 10022 is one of the most prestigious zip codes. It is the most affordable building in the city with all the amenities. You can find a walk up with higher maintenance and most are co-ops in the city.
Land lease usually gets renewed- I just think people are negative without knowing the facts.
If it was that terrible most people would not live here for 10+ years.

Amber, I want to buy in this building. Can you tell me if the maintenance has gone up annually and by how much?

The magic of the internet reveals that "Amber" likely was the purchaser (or, more likely, a parent) of a studio/1 bdrm in 2014 for $355k, that sold in 2022 for $340k, and maintenance went up from $1600/mo to $2200/mo over those 8 years. Could have been worse. Could have been better.

Could have been MUCH worse. Imagine if they had bought in 100 West 57th Street?

PHA has reduced its asking price from 10 years ago.

50% closer to Nada's purchase offer.

Interesting.

Not specific to this building. Wondering what would happen to land valuations and lease payments if the valuation were to be set now. Have the land leases seen the worst of valuations?

I do no mean apartments. Just the underlying land
"Have the land leases seen the worst of valuations?"

>> 50% closer to Nada's purchase offer.

LOL. I was thinking the same exact thing after rereading the thread and reviewing the comps but didn’t want to be a jerk about it. Thanks for taking one for the team!

@Nada
It was a "genius" offer :)

For those that see the "buying" part as like a PSL for football season tickets, do account going forward for assessments on facade repairs and energy use benchmarking in addition to "the rent"

Don’t they have an add-on charge for PSLs on the tickets for stadium refurbishments? ;)