Proof that well prices new development sells

Sorry for the typo. "Priced".

Well-designed units. Looks like a soaking tub in bathroom. Nice! Up and coming area as well.

Yes, but they have been on the market for 2 years and while that is a quicker sell out than a lot of the other projects on the market, it's not like they "flew out the door".

30, When did the first closings take place? Believe only recently and they only have a few left. I would call it pretty strong sale. If they sold out much before the first closings, it likely meant the developer left some money on the table.

It think the first closings we about 7 months ago?

That is about right. The point I am trying to make it that if the new development is priced right around 2k per sq ft, it moves.

In a good area. No special view.

So, based on this criteria, how do you feel about 231 West 26th St?

30, I would not call it a good block. It is certainly sub-prime. In addition, small condos just do not work as they have not afford a doorman and common charges are eventually too expensive even without the doorman. In addition, it does not really have the what people want in a new development - bigger windows, better layouts - which is not possible in long and narrow condo redo like this one.

Also, ceiling height seems closer to 8 foot some thing. But I am only looking at the pictures.

What do you think about Gramercy Square? Decent location, bulk of units priced $2,000 to $2,500 a foot with a bunch <$2,000, looks to me like 20% sold 9 months on the market.

Location is not that great perhaps due to association with stuy town - rightly Or wrongly. Believe school is not good and it is just not hip. For some strange reason Nomad has become hipper. Quality seems pretty good. I do not know the completion date but I would not pay more than $2k per sq ft for that location for the best units - lower for certain units as the taxes are substantially the same whether you buy in Greenwich village or in this location.

Take this one for example. People buy new development for a lot of light not a lot of dead space without window. And buyer has to pay taxes based on the sq footage. I am surprised that for a new development the architect could not figure out better utilization of space. Functionally it is just 1000 sq ft. So $1.8-2mm will move it.
https://streeteasy.com/building/the-tower-at-gramercy-square-215-east-19-street-new_york/4a

Would love your thoughts on this location. I have seem townhouses past 2nd avenue having a difficult time unless they are on Rutherford park on 17th and 2nd. Am I mistaken in the location just not being hip? I have never understood the reason.

https://streeteasy.com/building/the-tower-at-gramercy-square-215-east-19-street-new_york/16d
$3200 per square ft. Please!! It is not village. So I am thinking the reality is 10-25 percent down for this development. Perhaps they are offering some discounts or will as they near completion.

https://streeteasy.com/building/55-west-17-street-new_york/1302?context%5Bcontroller%5D=%23%3CBuildingController%3A0x00556e7055dcd0%3E&context%5Bcurrent_user%5D=1004028&hide_if_empty=true&section=sales
This only 2500 per sq ft. Why would I go to stuy town to live with working class?

Before I offend any one, I am just putting myself in the shoes of a rich buyer.

In terms of location I think equating it with Stuy town is a bit erroneous. The epicenter of Stuy town is between Avenue a and Avenue B whereas this is almost Third Avenue. In terms of the Block it's on it's actually a nicer block than 17th Street between 5th and 6th.

But if you want to cherry pick specific apartments to be compare how about this:
https://streeteasy.com/building/55-west-17-street-new_york/901?context%5Bcontroller%5D=%23%3CBuildingController%3A0x005644b9e719a0%3E&context%5Bcurrent_user%5D=1040784&hide_if_empty=true&section=sales

Vs. this:
https://streeteasy.com/building/the-prewar-at-gramercy-square/104

Challenge accepted...While anyone paying 10 million for a home is probably not in the market for a public school, it should be noted that Gramercy Square is zoned for PS 40 which is in the top 5% of all NYC public elementary schools according to test score ...its also a closer walk to one of the better private schools in Manhattan... Friends Seminary. It is also in a more residential area than 17th street toll building which is right off 6th avenue. its actually closer to proper gramercy park than it is to Stuy town. Besides, that part of Stuy town (Peter Cooper Village) is filled with Rich new Yorkers renting 3-5 bedroom apartments for $6 -$8,000 per month while they are renting out their manhattan condos in other parts of the city; it reminds me of the rentals on East End Avenue. I think I also like the terrace space better at gramercy square; it will be the tallest building on the block so it looks to have more privacy. The 17th street building terrace seems to be surrounded by taller commercial buildings. Gramercy square also has the driveway which allows you to drop off your deliveries.

I do agree that the sq ft price needs to go down but the area and building is better than the 17th street "Ladies Mile" building

And take into account the building as well - circular driveway pool Garden Etc

30, Both apartments in my opinion are fairly priced but the layout of the one in Gramercy is much better. I agree that the block is better but area is just not considered hip. Walker tower in the 55W 17th is commanding the top prices in the city, which I think is excessive prices. I am just trying to understand why people just do not value the area east of 3rd about 14th street as much. I can tell you that I have never gone east of 3rd to a restaurant or a bar in that area.

Toll brothers will probably take a cut to move the long/narrow apt you posted as they do not like to sit on the inventory.

Gramercy Square is a funky development, by far, not for everyone even at slightly discounted prices. This block is dead, well, almost. One needs to walk to Irving Park or Park Avenue South to get any action. Unless the apartment faces the courtyard, the views are abyssmal. New building on E.20th street with giant windows have a lovely view of police precinct across the street. E.19th building facing a high end retirement home. Amenities should make up for it and this development should transform this neighborhood to some degree.However, it is very, very sleepy at the moment.

flmd, All good points. The only one I disagree with is the Gramercy Park as you can not use it so it is pretty useless unless you have a key. However, why are the prices in this area generally much lower than West of Irving Place?

30, Would love your opinion on the area. For example, this only would have sold fast at this price (I am factoring in the need for full reno etc and existing sq footage is only 4000) in Flatiron/Chelsea. Greenwich/West Village is altogether separate issue where it would have sold for at least $6mm in the current condition.

https://streeteasy.com/building/353-east-19-street-manhattan

Friend, I think you nailed it with "One needs to walk to Irving Park or Park Avenue South to get any action." There are not any good restaurants in that area. Perhaps this building will be a catalyst for the change.

300 - I think you have discovered a value neighborhood, I think prices are likely to increase in the area over time with the addition of developments like gramercy square. there are 3 other developments going up within a 3-4 block radius. to be fair its only a 15 minute walk to Eataly, 2nd avenue trendy Momofuko restaurants (SSAM & Noodle bar) and the flatiron restaurants like gramercy tavern and Craft. No need to be right next to all the hustle and bustle

I personally think the neighborhood is a good value if you are willing to walk 5-10 minutes for "action". However, I have been thinking that more than 10 years when Stuy Town got sold in 2007 for a ridiculous price. It may happen if there are reasonably priced new developments around $2k per sq ft (10-25% discount to Flatiron/Chelsea). For gramercy square, price adjustment is needed to move to reflect the current neighborhood. Smallest building in the development seems really crappy on the outside in the pictures - think they just converted a 60s structure. That one should be closer to $1500-$1700 per sq ft.

I think the reason is that it never got "colonized." In the late 70s/early 80s no one wanted to be in the West Village until the gay community colonized it. Then when everybody wanted to be in the West Village the gay community colonized Chelsea. Before then prices in Chelsea were the same or less than "Gramercy vicinity". But when Chelsea became a hot neighborhood, Gramercy vicinity stayed the same. Then, mostly for the same reason that Tribeca became hot (i.e. it was a non neighborhood with zero residential so it was relatively easy to convert a lot of former manufacturing / Office Buildings to residential Lofts) Flatiron became hot, yet again Gramercy vicinity stayed as it was. At this point Hell's Kitchen (which for a very long time had been considered a bad location) has probably surpassed Gramercy facility in terms of desirability (and probably yet again due to "gay colonization").

Thank you. Makes sense. Hell’s Kitchen has certainly become more desirable.

And non neighborhoods can leap frog established residential more easily due to possibility of new development.

Hell’s Kitchen is an outlier. More desirable doesn’t mean desirable. I am highly skeptical about Hell’s Kitchen to rise. Ever. There are some interesting developments at discounted prices. However, the area is difficult with somewhat lower living standards. It is a completely different breed that is looking for a Hell’s Kitchen. Sort of the last resort.
I would rather bet on Gramercy Square and East of 3rd Avenue. Let’s not confuse it with the true Gramercy Square area. There is a really cool development by Toll Brothers on E.22nd street next to the school of the future. Looking at the future graduates; this is the future you don’t want to be a part of...However, the area is cool.

I do not think there are enough development sites for large newly constructed condos to turn-around most neighborhoods. Neighborhoods with inferior older housing - e.g. walk-up tenements - like East Village, LES, Chinatown will never become prime areas IMO. Office and warehouse conversions can work but only for those few buildings with good fenestration. New construction is not the recipe for a neighborhood's success, in Manhattan and Brooklyn at least. Good restaurants, bars, galleries, parks and shopping are typically the required first steps. And, increasingly, proximity to subways.

I think we have seen a real sea change in how long it takes neighborhoods to change based on the willingness of landlords to harass long-term tenants to get out and an unwillingness of NYC government to do anything meaningful to prevent it.

Ximon,
In the past I think you'll find that in general restaurants bars and shopping followed an influx of new tenants/owners into emerging neighborhoods as opposed to being a precursor.

30, I think both happen around the same time but when I look at neighborhoods like Soho, Williamsburg and say Crown Heights, they did not start becoming hot until people had a reason to come and visit. Sure Soho, Tribeca and City Hall had their AIR's but it was only when these artists left and the restaurants/galleries/bars came (through rezoning) that it became gentrified. Financial District will always be a secondary location to me, not only due to poor quality housing but also from a dearth of services.

The lofts in Tribeca were full of non-artists way before the stores and restaurants started moving in. Sure, there was Bouley, Odeon and El Teddy's but that was about it.

I think it could go either way. What is important is space for new development or potential for commercial to residential conversion. An established residential neighborhood will not change as easily in my opinion. Tribeca developed due to availability of large space for families and amenities finally came (Whole foods, West Side park and other restaurants). Nomad started with Ace Hotel, Shake Shack in Madison square park, and Eataly. West Chelsea with Galleries and High Line. I think subways are important but then I think of West Chelsea and far West Village.