Pre-War vs. New Construction Amenities

Washer dryer In the apartment.
Through wall ac and insulated windows.
The above 2 without question.
Exercise facility which is decent size relative to the building.
Storage.

At the end of the day, it is a different product and new developments are heavily marketed resulting in say 10-20 hype premium relative to even a 5-10 year old new development.

10-20 percent

It is somewhat apples and oranges because the majority of pre-war buildings are coops and almost all new construction are condos.

300, thru-wall a/c and new windows are a considerable expense. I am guessing $30,000 for windows and maybe $50,000 for thru-wall HVAC? I assume building could try to negotiate discounts but would never pay for this on their own. How much of a discount could a management company negotiate? I remember a coop on CPW offer three pre-approved styles of replacement windows for the building at different price levels with a negotiated discount.

Do any prewars offer concierge services? I did a search on SE and could not find one.

Some kind of gym seems like a no-brainer especially if building charges for usage. Although I suspect a small % of tenants actually use a gym, they may like that the building has one so could add to market value.

I was wondering if any buildings have ever taken a proactive look at ways to add additional bedrooms or sleeping areas (subject to proper permits) or if they would think higher occupancy levels are simply a drain on building resources.

Thru-wall AC or central ac and new windows are indeed expensive (assuming aesthetics and code allow the thru wall ac) if done properly which is why many pre-wars have not done it. In addition, it has to be done for the whole building to maintain uniformity.

Also, not every one likes the small bathrooms in Pre-wars. That you can not always address.

Kitchen open to living room is not always possible and there is indeed a demand for it if you look at most new developments.

You can look at one of the pre-war condo conversions on the UWS to see what it takes to convert a pre-war into new development. I can tell you that it is not the amenities except a nice gym.

https://streeteasy.com/building/the-astor

Basic to Prewar is charm. You must decide if you want expanded amenities or character in a building.

I do not remotely view the amenities as questions of competitiveness. It is a different audience. I for one would not buy in a building with (in my view) useless amenities in public spaces, as I have no need for media rooms, pools, gyms, bike rooms, meeting areas or other communal space. And amenity fees are unpredictable revenue sources and do not cover the cost/lost potential income of devoting and maintaining those spaces. It will be interesting to see what all of these buildings do when it is time to change out all of the equipment in that gym in 10 years, will they eat the +/- $500K expense or close it?

The things that actually impact the quality of living that 300_Mercer points out could make new and old developments potentially different products. Anyone can add more building staff, although it is hard to imagine concierge services to be of any added value in the modern world. Some things are difficult to retrofit to pre-existing construction, either for practical reasons or because of building resistance. In my view, it is hard to quantify the benefit of central air versus window or even in wall units. Silent, way better performance, less obtrusive, no winter drafts, and I can control it from my phone. You can't replicate the light that floor to ceiling windows provide in a new building (although many despise that appearance). But insulated and soundproof low-e windows, in-unit laundry rooms, well-placed powder rooms, modern elevators, storage are the sort of things that can change quality of life. In-building parking does too, but can't really fix that if not there, and more likely to find that in old construction than new. While our roof deck is used infrequently, it is a very useful selling point. Interestingly, in the 15 years I have been in our building, every new owner uses the roof deck regularly in their first year, and little or not at all thereafter.

1. In-unit washer/dryer.
2. Heating / cooling under tenant control.
3. High quality soundproof windows.
4. Elevator upgrades
5. 24 hour doorman/staff

I would be happy to pay more maintenance for improvements in these features. These most directly affect the quality of living in the unit. The rest of the amenities, not so much, if at all, though I understand that with new construction living rooms seemingly coming in at 12 x 12 feet, the use of another 'media room' or 'social space' may be appealing to a buyer.

Thanks 30 and nyc_sport. I should have been more clear. I am trying to think of ways to make a pre-war building more competitive mainly with other pre-wars that have made major improvements. I agree it's a bit "apples and oranges" although some people would consider both types.

nyc_sport, appreciate the detailed feedback especially as it relates to a gym. I also worry that these types of improvements which are not true capital expenditures due to their short effective economic lives. I would frankly put redecoration of lobbies and hallways into the same category. Although these improvements add "curb appeal", they should be secondary to actual cap ex projects such as window, HVAC and electric upgrades which should enhance a building's value for decades.

Thanks 300. I think The Astor is not a perfect example as it was a gut renovation and very high end but I did notice the building has new double pane windows, 24-hour concierge service, fitness center, children’s playroom, bike room, private storage, roof deck and smart wiring. A one-bedroom apt. has a dressing room, open kitchen, extra powder room and washer-dryer closet, all in a 950 sf unit. Very nice project albeit expensive.

Aaron2, thanks. Does a new gym or lobby redecoration fall under your second category?

I would rate a new/renovated lobby or hallways as more important than a gym. Good lobbies/halls are 'curb appeal', though I also think that a building that has well maintained lobbies (which may include full redecoration periodically) can be an indicator of an overall board philosophy that generates/maintains long-term value. I'll use my favorite example: Imperial House (150 E 69th) did a refresh of their lobby a few years ago- a restoration, really. It looks as good as it did when the building opened, and is kept in impeccable condition. I think that speaks volumes about how the board wants to manage/maintain value. (and the doormen wear white gloves and hats. Prime.)

(Building design firm: Emery Roth; interior firm: Raymond Loewy/William Snaith).

It is a different audience- I'll only live in a prewar building unless the postwar building is extraordinary. Many can't stand the white-box, metal frame widow, lowered ceiling/recessed lighting post-war apartments. The anonymous feel is boring. A person may as well be in an apartment in Boise ID, or Jacksonville FL, or Dallas. Same to be said for gut renovations in a prewar building. Avoided at (almost) all costs.
So, it seems that the more you capitalize on the prewar feel, the more it will attract people that want to avoid the anonymous white-box experience. There might also be a lot of people (like me) who see prewar details such as crown molding and traditionally designed cabinetry, etc., as real assets.

One thing about hallway and lobby renovations - I personally think they should all approximate the look of the vintage of the building. I hate walking into a prewar building and seeing "modern" looking common spaces.

The worst in my book is when the lobby & halls have had piecemeal upgrades over the years, resulting in a mix of finishes and materials, each representing different periods and styles. Better in my opinion to let the entire original lobby get a little shabby, then renovate/restore all at once. I looked at one building where two of the walls were the original stone, and the back wall and columns had been covered in faux-wood paneling, with the doorman's desk and mailroom area in yet another finish. Elevators were yet another style, and 'mid-80s hotel' in the upstairs hallways.

People seem overly obsessed with look & resale value.
I don’t see as much talk about actual function & features.

For example, I lived in a building that updated the halls to look nicer.
Well that involved ripping out wallpaper and carpet and now it’s all stone.
Looks lovely. Increased hallway noise by 10x.

Elevators - I’ve lived in a building where the lobby was re-done over 2 years, and yet the 2 elevators would take turns being out of service. Elevator would jump and miss my floor at least once a month, sometimes reset and start going in a different direction than where it was dispatched, etc. That lobby looked GREAT though.

I now live in a building with a gym. Some use it, many don’t. For people who just want to get in a few workouts per week in a clean, convenient location.. it saves you about $2k/year after tax in membership fees.. per adult.

A lot of amenities can be like the old joke about owning a boat - the two times you use them is when when you are looking at buying the apartment and when you go to sell it.

Yes, some amenities may only be for show but also for enhancing the value of the unit. So even if a buyer thinks they need a gym or a roof deck with a bbq or a concierge, the next buyer may feel the same way so it may make economic sense to add them even if no one ever uses them.

Also reminds me of some of those appraisal rules of thumb I was taught years ago for valuing add-on features like swimming pools (never worth more than 50% of the cost) or tennis courts (pretty much added no value, maybe even negative).

Owning a boat of course never made any financial sense but that was kinda the idea, no? Bragging about your boat or motorcycle or sportscar never gets tiring and therefore worth every penny!

Ha ha but bragging gets tiring to everyone else!

pre war means old plumbing elevators internet connections, poor insulation , and old electrical systems. world war ii began over 80 years ago. unless you are talking marquee building like a dakota hard to see justifying the huge cost of bringing a building that old up to current standards. construction techniques and materials have come a long way so the best of the new buildings like a 15 cpw will always be superior to a 100 year old building. pre-war was a huge plus in the 50's 60's and 70's when during that time a lot of sub-par units went up with low ceilings and small rooms and no closets. today the best buildings have the size of pre-war and all the modern bells and whistles like efficient heating and cooling, fast internet, electricity and plumbing that supports washers and dryers etc.

there's no contest

Riversider,

What you are saying is generally true.

- Insulation is addressed by changing the windows. Rest of the buildings is well insulated.
- Electrical can be easily upgraded.
- Fast internet is very easy as you can easily run fiber optics line in the hallway hidden in the moldings.
- Plumbing is hard which is why washer dryers are not permitted in many pre-wars.
- HVAC is the hardest unless you are willing a sacrifice part of a window in a large unit.
- Lay out and closets in new developments are closer to what most (>70%) people like today.

Thanks again to all the detailed responses. Since most of my original post was deleted for reasons unknown, and the title was a little confusing, allow me to reiterate my original question.

Rather than discussing the desirability of pre-war vs. post-war, I am trying to better understand how to maximize the value of a pre-war building by knowing which improvements might potentially add the most value.

For example, which of the following building improvements would you prioritize on a cost-value basis?
- double-glazed thermopane windows
- new exercise facility
- new thru-wall HVAC
- redecorating lobbies
- new hallways
- improved elevator cabs
- additional electric service e.g. 220v for washer/dryers
- adding additional bedrooms and sleeping areas (legally of course)
- additional storage rooms in basement
- improvements to water pressure
- concierge services
- expanded bathrooms and kitchens
- sub-metered electric (vs. building pays)
- roof deck improvements e.g. bbq, lighting, dining

Ximon, London Terrace

a four pipe chiller and hot water system. giving unit owners the ability to warm and cool their units on demand and doing it efficiently is huge

i kinda disagree with the premise. at the end of the day the building is still pre-war but more importantly the costs associated with trying to bridge the gap prohibitive. i don't know what your goal is, but it would be cheaper to move

Thanks Ali. London Terrace is interesting. They have concierge service, new fitness center, swimming pool with steam room and saunas in both the men’s and women’s locker rooms, thru-wall a/c (I assume not in all units), and a resident's lounge with coffee service.

May go check out a few open houses tomorrow. Units seem a little on the small side (1 beds @ 850sf) and maintenance seems a little on the high side (around $3psfpm) Could you enlighten me on board approval?

The board there is relatively easy, but OTOH are one of the few who have instituted Pullman Evictions, which is always a red flag to me.

BTW The units in London Terrace are not small per se, the room sizes are decent but they have "apartment hotel" sized kitchens.

Riversider, again I am not being very clear. I am simply asking what capital improvements and new services would be considered cost effective for a prewar apartment building. I am not trying to bridge a gap but in some ways I suppose I want to narrow one.

I am looking at buying an apartment in a pre-war building that is planning a number of capital improvements that may end up raising common charges quite a bit. Building could be making a number of decisions in the next year or two that are either money good or money bad depending on the value they create versus the cost.

A four pipe chiller hot water system? Is this the same thing as central or thru-the-wall HVAC? Would this capital improvement add more value to an apartment without one than it would cost?

ximon, if you are used to the Vendome IMHO I think you will find the layouts in London Terrace feel very similar.

If you're looking at comparitive cheapest improvements I would say new hallways, then new windows. I'm not sure where new electric fits in but it's a good selling point. Washer/dryer upgrades would be very expensive.

While the ability to have in unit washer/dryers may be expensive, I will say it may actually be the most important amenity in in terms of desirability. I don't think many people make the buy decision based on pools, etc., I'd bet a lot do based on having the in unit washer dryer.

I agree 30 and in fact my current renovation made sure to include a new washer/dryer closet. Additionally, I included an open space kitchen plan, new his/her closets for my one bedroom, a fully tiled bathroom (wish it were bigger) and a deep soaking tub with shower system. I hope that is enough to sell at a premium at which time I will trade down to a smaller pre-war one-bedroom in order to reduce my exposure to Manhattan residential. I don't need a doorman but would appreciate a package room, soundproof windows with thru-wall a/c, and maybe a gym. Hell, most doormen are now concierges anyway with little time to open doors with all the packages and notices they need to respond to.

Ali, I went to a few open houses at London Terrace and was overall impressed. Hard to find a unit with open views to relieve me of my claustrophobia but still the units were reasonably sized and configured except for the very small kitchens. Some tenants complain about the window replacements which are now old and of poor quality but they can be replaced at owner's expense which is a plus. Also, thru-wall a/c can be added for only $3,000 for interior units and $3,000-$4,000 plus scaffolding costs for street-facing units. Gym was very nice as was the pre-war swimming pool. What they call concierge service appears to be simply a doorman with a desk. But that's the future of doorman service I believe. Washer/dryers in units are not permitted. l wish they would do something to upgrade the garden in the middle of the project which is essentially unused and unsightly. This apparently is the result of a lack of cooperation between the rental portion and the coop portion which are under separate ownership.

Overall, the board seems to be staying relatively ahead of the competition by responding to a number of the problems faced by pre-war buildings. Still more could be done.

Plenty of outlets (new electric).

Pre-war condos for me all the way. Usually lower taxes. For new construction, be wary as often times the abatements are already part of the way used up. You may only have a few of the 10 yrs left (sometimes you might get lucky with one that had a 25 yr abatement).

Hello! New to this site and not a real estate professional, but I've been looking at NYC real estate since the early oughts and was quoted at least twice (in a good way) in the NY Times real estate section back then regarding how to design a beach house.

I am 1st generation not living in NY or the boroughs, but am not a spring chicken. This is my hobby and so, while there are many things I don't fully understand such as co-ops, unlike many who live outside of NYC, I'm not shocked when I see apartments running for 1 million per bedroom without the guarantee of central air, washer/dryer, dishwasher as most I know along the eastern seaboard are...not to mention the $1k + monthly maintenance fees. I have dealt with the dreaded HOAs.

I probably left some things out but that aside - this is what I think I know and the following is my opinion on what the OP asked.

I fully agree with 300_mercer as far as what I am looking for, even in a pied a terre:

Washer dryer In the apartment.
Through wall ac and insulated windows.
The above 2 without question.
Exercise facility which is decent size relative to the building.
Storage.

I would add a dishwasher and place storage as more important that an exercise facility.

I wonder what you mean by insulated windows. Double-paned? I think at this price point I would want triple paned. Not only that, if I'm heading into over $4 million, I want windows with "smart glass" (see DC's Washington Monument elevator as an example. Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_glass). This is not new technology and isn't NYC supposed to be on the cutting edge of things, so to speak? Yeah.

Before you completely write me off on that, I worked in a building that had triple-paned windows because it was close to the flight path of an Air Force base. I've also stayed in a hotel near an airport that had them (both buildings likely built in the 80s, based upon their architecture/design). So, I'd expect the triple-paned windows at the very least for the 4th floor and below really.

Regarding the gym, there are companies who rent out equipment which would save on costs and be far easier to update over the years but, it's been my experience even where I live that newbies use them a few times and then stop going. I think we all know that gyms are very trendy - Pilates, bell weights, Zumba, cycling classes, hot yoga, etc. It's best not to try to keep up with that if the building has to pay for all of it.

I saw a NY real estate show a number of years ago now, where the new tenants wanted to have their wedding on the roof top. Sounds good, yeah? No. Due to weight restrictions, they could only allow something like 20 people on the roof and no bathroom facilities. That meant that all the guests had to drunkenly totter down the stairs (it was a walk up), to the 3rd floor apt to go to the bathroom - and it was an older apt which meant they also had to go through the bedroom to get to the bathroom. Of course, some items went missing because they had to keep the door unlocked (whether or not their guests were iffy). Based upon that as well as personal experience with a pool in the roof (which in general is not a good idea but sounds appealing to buyers at first glimpse), there simply must be public bathrooms on the roof to avoid such mayhem.

As to a concierge/doorman....well, I'm not sure if the exact reason has been stated. To me, the only reason where that is a good idea is some sort of way to accept packages, because that can be an issue and even more so now with more people buying groceries/every day type items online. I think 7am - 7pm would be fair. Cameras, of course. Buzzers with cameras, of course.

The only time I've seen wall-through heater/air conditioners was in Australia but they seem to be gaining traction here. Where I live, central heat/ac is expected unless you're buying an ancient house at a really cheap price or live in govt housing. I went to Aus during their winter. The units seemed to work fine. I do wonder about the condensation dripping in the summer. I don't know. That still flummoxes me that it's possible to pay over a million dollars for ANY house/apt and not get central air. Window units are not the same. Don't kid yourself.

Elevators. The elevators where my mom grew up always worked and there was only 1 per 6th floor building built sometime in the late 30s early 40s ish...to the point that I've been told my grandfather and his buddies used to play poker in the elevator during air raids during WWII. Ha! But, yeah, just 2 years or so ago, I went to a hotel that had 2 elevators - one was completely out of service and the other one had a mind of its own and would stop at every floor except the one you wanted! lol With that in mind, it may not sound "sexy" on a brochure/listing but a trustworthy elevator should come without saying.

Best to all of you! I came across this last night and have had fun learning from all of the posts on here.

"Plenty of outlets (new electric)."

Yes. Absolutely, and sometimes on the floor if the room is rather large or awkward.

I feel the differences between pre-war and new construction are so significant they can't really be papered over with amenities - the two types of product simply appeal to different types of customers. After just a few months of looking for a home I bet most people could guess the era of a building based on floorplan alone: Huge windows and bathrooms but just a strip of kitchen in new construction; separate dining and living rooms along with service entrances and maid's rooms/bathrooms in prewar; open living plans and more generous closets (but shorter ceiling heights) in postwar/midcentury.

These are significant differences that far outweigh having a gym or entertainment space, and can't be fixed on a building-wide basis. So I think the real question to ask here is what improvements will maximize value for the building rather than how it can better compete with new construction. And that's difficult to answer without knowing the current condition of the building. For example, if your current hallways and lobbies are dingy and tired, that would be a relatively cheap and easy place to start - but if they look OK, it's probably not worth the effort. W/D are a no-brainer as pretty much everyone would want these, but if it would cost a fortune to upgrade the plumbing to support it you likely wouldn't get the full value back. And if any improvements increase your maintenance well beyond standard levels, that might lower rather than increase the price you can ask for your units.