LIC Sucks

"Manhattan is not significantly less risky.

Perhaps Harlem isn't less risky than LIC, but the rest of Manhattan is.

"The prices in LIC will correlate to Manhattan"

Really? What do you base that on?

"and the spread between the two will lessen and LIC becomes more and more residential."

You mean once they get that second Duane Reade opened?

Say you have a family with 1 child, you'll need a 2 BR. In Manhattan 2 BR's are $1mm and in LIC they are $700k. They don't make 700 sq ft- 2 BR's in Manhattan so your idea of having more space for the money is just simply DUMB.

I hear that all of Newark could afford Manhattan, too, they just wanted more space for the money.
;-)

> the spread between the two will lessen

Glad you didn't pull a fact out of your ass or anything... marginal neighborhood spreads generally increase in crashes...

newaccount, can you check your facts before you post? A 2-bedroom in 5SL that costs $800k-$950k will cost in a comparable Manhattan building around $1.2-$1.8 million.

The fact IS that the Manhattan apt is less risky than a fringe neighborhood. What don't you get? You can buy in LIC for 23x or Manhattan for 18x rent.

In your eyes, LIC will exceed Tribeca in valuations in the short term.

newaccount, a nice 2BR in Manhattan will most likely run you well over $1m. There are quite a few under that, but they are indeed smaller (800 sqft or so) or have only 1 bath, or quirky layouts. I get what LICComment is trying to say here, though I don't agree that prices will necessarily correlate to Manhattan either. You can undoubtedly get more space for the same price in LIC, but the same holds true for Harlem, Williamsburg, parts of Midtown, and Washington Heights. I guess it comes down to personal preference (and it's really no one's place to judge if someone really likes LIC - not sure why it bothers some people so much here), though I would choose any of those neighborhoods before LIC myself.

> You can undoubtedly get more space for the same price in LIC

Or Kansas.

"Or Kansas."

True, but Metrocards don't work there yet. Maybe if this 2nd Ave thing is a success...

I hear all the banking analysts are moving to Kansas because thats where the cool clubs are. And the Duane Reade.

"I think I see the pattern of the bears who post on this board - they are either bitter renters or others who are angry that they can't afford to buy a nice place where they want to live, or people who couldn't make it working on Wall Street so they lash out at the Wall Street crowd that is doing well and hope for a real estate crash."

Just out of curiosity, where does the guy who could get a job on Wall Street and couldn't afford Manhattan so he stretched to make payments on an LIC white box studio and is now shitting in his pants that he'll have lost more than he put down in 6 months fit into this?

BTW, as for your "facts" and "logic". I'm not bitter, and I'm certainly not angry. I'm actually freaking OVERJOYED that I played it right, and didn't buy at the top of a bubble. In what lousy logic world would anyone who called it so right not be happy about that fact? Even if prices stayed flat for now, I'd have come out way ahead in this game. Any decline is just gravy at this point.

Its what one often calls gloating. Yes, I feel a little guilty, but I only feel sorry for the folks who don't need to try and go off on others to make themselves feel better about their RE "investments". But, like it or not, I told you so.

Seems it would be bubble buyers that are bitter, not the folks who knew it was stupid to pay 30x rent on a diminishing asset. And, looking at your last 100 posts (including nothing but childish insults and ignorance), I think we have pretty clear proof of that..

> who couldn't make it working on Wall Street

Only a poor person living in Queens could possibly think that the best folks on Wall Street stay on Wall Street... Buy Side, baby!

It's amazing to me how some people spend so much time bashing LIC. I, for one, bought there and can't wait to move in. After looking extensively in Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, and NJ, my wife and I decide upon LIC and bought there. Seems pointless to explain why to this audience, though I did want to chime in an simply express how much we love the area (recognizing that there are several sections of LIC and we are partial to the immediate area near Vernon/Jackson and the waterfront) and can't wait to move in. One other thing I wanted to mention: regarding all of this worrying about buying at the top, etc. - we want to live there, and, for our specific needs/wants, we get the most bang for our buck in LIC. Others may not agree, or may not have found the right unit in the right location for the right price, though we feel we did and can't wait to move in!! Long term this will be a good investment, I believe, and I know the financial advantages to renting and investing the difference, though we wanted to own and are comfortable with the risk/reward. Good luck all in whichever path you choose.

Congrats, triplec! I don't think people are bashing LIC. They're bashing LICComment because he's shilling for the area with ridiculous comments. This obnoxious attitude has not won him or the neighborhood any friends. Hopefully, he doesn't live next door from you. Good luck and enjoy a great neighborhood.

@triplec -- I actually like LIC. I live nearby and think LIC has lots of potential and is so conveniently located, I do think there has been a gap between the prices and the neighborhood status and I'm sad that it has become unaffordable for most people. If you are happy with your apartment then that is all that's important! But if I had the money I might be tempted to buy into the area myself :-) Enjoy your new neighborhood!!

as densely populated as NYC is, it will never be densely populated enough that LIC is merely just a steady discounted level vs. Manhattan. It simply isn't going to attract people in the same manner.

Oddly, if you read stevejhx typically on Manhattan, and if you read him on Manhattan vs. LIC, he is quite self-contradictory.

newaccount, why don't you just be honest? Just look at your posts - you are bashing LIC. Quite arrogantly and ineffectively, I may add. Now you are lying about it. Weird. I haven't bashed any other area or anyone's decision to buy. You can't name one statement I have made that is ridiculous.

Quotes by LICComment-

"If you can buy in LIC, you can buy in Manhattan."

"You get more space for your money in LIC."

Obnoxious as well as ridiculous, I'd say. Also, arrogant and untrue! Add ineffective too!

"you are bashing LIC"

LMAO. You can't really bash the dead.

"Oddly, if you read stevejhx typically on Manhattan, and if you read him on Manhattan vs. LIC, he is quite self-contradictory."

Really? How and where?

"But, like it or not, I told you so."

Oy, as if this were what Streeteasy were for. And I don't believe I saw you anywhere on these boards until recently, so the patting-yourself-on-the-back here is a bit disingenuous.

"Only a poor person living in Queens could possibly think that the best folks on Wall Street stay on Wall Street... Buy Side, baby!"

Ok, now you sound like petrfitz. Please drop it.

> Ok, now you sound like petrfitz. Please drop it.

Your anger is misplaced. I was simply responding to another idiotic comment from LIC aimed at me...

"I think I see the pattern of the bears who post on this board - they are either bitter renters or others who are angry that they can't afford to buy a nice place where they want to live, or people who couldn't make it working on Wall Street so they lash out at the Wall Street crowd that is doing well and hope for a real estate crash."

Not only is LIC stupid, but he's clearly bitter as well...

Unless someone hates where they currently live, I think everyone is going to say nice things about their neighborhood. So I don't know why people gang up on LICC for defending his turf. He clearly likes it there, which is why he bought. I say good for him - to me it's really important to live in an apartment I like in an area I like.

Anyway, that being said, I've never really been to LIC, though I've driven through it. I did look at Williamsburg, and it seems a little similar - new buildings going up, close to manhattan, bigger bang for your buck, and its own social scene as well (though I think billyburg has the edge on LIC in that regard). Personally, I felt like the slight discount on price I could have gotten in WBurg didn't compensate for the risk of being outside Manhattan. I tend to think these areas, along with other places that people tend to move to for purely economic reasons (like the Financial District and Harlem), will do the worst in the downturn. Granted, there is also probably better long-term potential as well, but in the meantime you have to live in a neighborhood with limited amenities. Also, I'm lazy and tend to hang out in a 5-10 block radius of where I live, so I doubt I'd make it back to the city much.

I realize people could make the same argument about the East Village vs West Village, and I will partly agree (that some people will move to EV just because it's cheaper), although I'd also disagree in that it was already a residential neighborhood (not one created out of nowhere), a lot of people just like it there, and it already has a ton of things there or going up that anchor long term growth (like whole foods, developments going up on bowery, new hotels, nightlife in LES nearby etc.)

Evillager, you're right - LICC has every right to defend where he lives. But saying that the prices there will mirror Manhattan's is really a stretch.

As I said, I like the EV myself, and it's very easy for me to get to on the V/F trains from 23rd Street. I prefer to live in Chelsea, however - better housing stock, more to do. LICC tries to claim that there's as much to do in LIC as there is in the EV. Well, not. They're only now getting a Duane Reade.

EV / WV are not comparable - unless you go back to the days of the Beatnicks. WV is firmly established; EV retains some of its gritty feel. Which is fine, now that it no longer feels dangerous.

Its one thing to defend where you live, its another to ignore facts and use childish insults to take down those who bring them up...

Evillager, I think you actually raise some good points... I agree that outside Manhattan will suffer more once we're in a clear decline, as the "savings" isn't worth the risk/distance of being in marginal neighborhoods. Flight to quality, as its called. I'm also much more of a fan of Williamsburg over LIC. I've seen many pitches calling LIC the "next" williamsburg, and I don't think that will ever happen. Mainly because there was no real creative wave before the condos set in (like WB had).

I do disagree with you on the financial district. I think the neighborhood itself will actually be improving over the next 5 years. I think it trades at a significant discount to uptown, and that will change as critical mass hits. I think the shift from place you go for financial reasons - as you said - to just another decent manhattan neighborhood will be a significant move. If I *had* to buy today and not live there, I'd probably pick lower Manhattan.

I like the Evillage, but it will always suffer from the lousy transportation problem.

steve, thanks for another incorrect statement. Please show where I said there is as much to do in LIC as in the EV. You can't, because you just made that up. I said that your claim that there is nothing to do in LIC is wrong. Ridiculously wrong.

I'm glad others can see how dumb are most of the comments from these few LIC bashers. How can someone call ridiculous a statement that you get more space for your money in LIC compared to Manhattan? newaccount went from inane to laughable with that one.

not to change the subject, but the EV transport problem only really applies to alphabet city. depending on where you live, you may have the F/V or the 6 both close by (or both)

FIDI - hey, who knows, and I'd say the same thing as for LIC - if you like the hood and your apt, then good for you. The times I have been there after 8pm or on weekends, I've always thought it had a ghost town sort of feeling, and I don't like the idea of having a $10 cab fare to get me "uptown" to soho.

I actually don't want the EV to change *too* much. Great if it continues to get a little bit better, not so great if a bunch of chains move in and make the place like, I don't know, Chelsea.

I thought EV had great transportation - F/V, 6 and L.

Some parts of Chelsea (6th Ave) do have chains, which I kind of like: nothing like walking 2 blocks for printer paper at Staples than the 30-minute walk I had from the WV. 7th Avenue has no chains, 8th Avenue has no chains.

I would definitely live in either place, but wouldn't live in LES or LIC. Or UES, either, for that matter. Just depends on what you like. (Though LIC is tough to like.)

Okay, LIC, I'll rephrase: there'll be PLENTY to do in LIC once they get that Duane Reade up and running.

Happier?

"How can someone call ridiculous a statement that you get more space for your money in LIC compared to Manhattan?"

There are a lot of places where you get more for your money: East New York, Soundview, Jersey....

I think for a lot of us the "discount" you get for moving to LIC isn't great enough when you look at other neighborhoods in non-prime location.

LICComment- thanks for bringing my name up again. Please tell us that you stand by your words. I didn't say it, you said it.

"If you can buy in LIC, you can buy in Manhattan."

"You get more space for your money in LIC."

If I were to pick a fringe neighborhood, I'd pick FiDi. Much lower risk, close to waterfront, no projects nearby, and best of all- there are Duane Reades on every corner! YAY!

Duane Reade is a deal breaker for me.

BTW FiDi has great transportation.

I actually think if the FiDi takes my anticipated 30% hit, with the rest of the city, it will see the greatest increases in the years following.

I'll throw in that FiDi also has some fantastic housing stock (if you like old detailed skyscrapers) and the most important thing of all... a Manhattan address. ;-)

> I actually think if the FiDi takes my anticipated 30% hit, with the rest
> of the city, it will see the greatest increases in the years following.

I think thats absolutely possible. It might be taken down with the general market, but its a longer term bet. Of course, I'd wait until we're at least fully into the crash, maybe 6-12 or even 18 months.

> I thought EV had great transportation - F/V, 6 and L.
and
> not to change the subject, but the EV transport problem only really applies to alphabet city.

When coined, "east village" was the specific replacement name for "alphabet city". In my book, they are one and the same.

Whatever you call it, I spent considerable time in the neighborhood before the name change. If you are near the 6, you are not in the east village...

FiDi has a future b/c the old skyscrapers can't easily be converted into modern office buildings and basically have to be disassembled, which is very expensive. The new WTC will have housing, which will bring even more people in.

I think lots of companies are going to move to the West Side Rail Yards over time, b/c of easy access to transportation once the No. 7 is extended, and Penn Station is connected to GCT. The only real commuter beneficiaries of FiDi are people who live along the Path, & they can still get to midtown.

actually, alphabet city used to be considered part of the lower east side, hence "Loisaida" ave

and let's see, veselka is 2 blocks from the 6 train at astor place. that's not the east village?

whatever.

> actually, alphabet city used to be considered part of the
> lower east side, hence "Loisaida" ave

And that makes Astor Place part of the east village exactly how?

can you read?

I'm asking - veselka is on 9th and 2nd (since you seem to not know the place), is that the east village? and if it's not, what neighborhood is it in? because that is 2 blocks from a 6 train stop.

Astor Place is decidely in the E. Village: it's a few blocks from St. Mark's. Houston Street is usually the dividing line, where the streets switch from names to numbers.

Oh, the greatest website ever:

http://www.onnyturf.com/subway/

I just realized veselka's only been there for like 25 years, which may be too new for you, old man river

But the 2nd ave deli used to be right there too. again, not east village?

mcsorley's - that HAS to have been around when you lived there. 7th btw 2nd and 3rd, 1 block from 6 train stop - not east village?

I dislike neighborhood-boundary arguments as much as anyone, but have to agree - Astor is the cutoff between the EV and GV.

> can you read?

Very well, actually. And you still haven't addressed exactly why you gave the statement...

> actually, alphabet city used to be considered part of the
> lower east side, hence "Loisaida" ave

Seems like I read it better than you did.

Again, what the hell does that have to do with Astor Place being in the East Village?

> (since you seem to not know the place),

Now you're playing this game? Sorry, recovering frat boy (upper east AND upper west), I was at Veselka long before you took down your pressurized wall at Normandie... I even love that you spelled it right!

Clearly, you lived in the worst building in all of Manhattan. Doesn't sound like you should be doing any name calling...

bjw2103, I totally agree...meaning that you can live near it and still be in the EV

EddieWilson claims to have lived in alphabet city before the term "east village" was around (which was the 80s, putting him in his mid 40s), has said he is "Buy Side", yet rents

Most buy side guys I know who are 45 own places in manhattan, greenwich and the hamptons

I'm gonna say you are full of BS

Um, no, never lived at dormandie. Since I spell a building correctly I lived there? You're a moron. Oh, and I lived on the UWS while attending grad school at columbia.

I said that Veselka, which is 2 blocks from the astor place subway, is in the east village. You claim that anywhere near astor place is not in the east village.

I'd use Broadway for that cutoff, and of course Houston at the lower end.

Evillager, a piece of advice: don't go on about people's ages b/c you know what, if you're lucky you'll reach that age and will feel exactly the way you do now but people will look at you differently.

If you're lucky, because they might not look at you at all.

So - people need to be respected regardless of their age: 1, 2, 20, 50, or 100.

Now let's move on to a different argument.

steve, I'm not making fun of anyone's age. I am calling BS on the fact that he has claimed to be a "buy side" guy, and I think a 45 year old on the buy side should have way too much money to be ranting on a board all day about how renting makes more sense than buying. if he is what he has claimed he is, he should own several properties instead of patting himself on the back for not buying at the top.

Best part is, evillager (the recovering frat boy) is totally off...
45? Uh, no. He's off by, well, lets just say double digits...

But keep trying. Apparently, next I'll be 70 and living in Hoboken.

So Eddie Wilson provides wrong information, again, and then is idiotically obnoxious about it, again, to the person who respectfully disagreed with him. Shocker.

Oh, and if its school dropping you want, I went to one of the *good* ivies...

eddie, the term "east village" has been around for 20 years. you may not be 45, but my point is that you are lying about something. your story doesn't add up.

and you still won't admit 9th and 2nd is in the east village!

LIC, don't you have a class trip to the zoo or something?

Are you really complaining about ANYONE else on this board when you're the biggest scmhuck who does *nothing* but insult. You haven't posted a fact since you put your e-mail address into the registration screen.

I'd rather insult LICComment, but EddieWilson: "Whatever you call it, I spent considerable time in the neighborhood before the name change" . . . before the 1960s? Maybe you ARE 70 and living in Hoboken!

Damn, I look really good for my age.

But folks were saying Alphabet City way into the 80s....

> eddie, the term "east village" has been around for 20 years. you may not be 45,
> but my point is that you are lying about something. your story doesn't add up.

Maybe because you can't add...
;-)

For those who have invested in LIC, it would be my humble suggestion to let this thread "die". It is giving the area a VERY bad rep for the many of us who had no opinion either way.

bump :)

eddie, let's see here...

typical age of graduating college + moving to nyc = 22
last year in 80s = 1989
2008 - 1989 = 19
19+22 = 41 = youngest age of "eddie"

or, more likely, "way into 1980s" = 1985
2008 - 1985 = 23
23 + 22 = 45 = likely age of "eddie"

if my math is wrong, please correct me

while you're at it, why don't you let us know
1) what neighborhood you and size apt live in
2) if you have ever owned property in nyc. did you sell as you saw prices running up, or have you just never been able to afford buying?
3) what you do for a living, since you have claimed to be "buy side" before

since you portray yourself as such a real estate expert, I'd say all those points are revelant to your credibility, which right now is zero

if you won't share that in general terms (not asking for actual addresses and company name, obviously), why not? what are you hiding?

oh, and one last question:
4) is 9th and 2nd in the east village? if not, where is it?

try all you want, you're not even close (as usual)... I love how I aged another 4 years since yesterday.

Logic clearly escapes you, EV.... your assumptions are pretty poor.

> I'd say all those points are revelant to your credibility, which right now is zero

Yes, I define my credibility by what the guy who moved here from Ohio says..

The only options I left out are 1) you living with your parents live in alphabet city, or 2) you living there while in college

So why not answer my questions then?

again:
1) where do you live, how big is your apt
2) have you EVER owned proprty in NYC
3) what do you do for a living?

Oh, and by the way, the "go back to ohio" attack is the lamest one yet, and usually used by people living in rent stabilized apts.

> So why not answer my questions then?

Because, besides being wrong (again!).... you're still off the point... the East Village is POORLY served by the subways. That you have to walk outside the neighborhood to get to the 6 local, and the southernmost edge has an F, thats about as bad as it gets... even if you claim the L, you're still talking edge of the neighborhood, and doesn't really go anywhere you couldn't walk...

You can try and turn this as personal as you want, but the Evillage is *significantly* challenged transportation-wise....

> how big is your apt

Bigger than yours, in a more expensive neighborhood. We'll leave it at that...

"the East Village is POORLY served by the subways"

This is an inaccurate statement - the EV is actually GREAT for transportation in certain spots - see 2nd and 2nd (you have easy access to BDFV and 6, and not much further to NRW), and pretty terrible in others (8th and B for example). I find it a bit ironic that you're knocking EV subway access when you were trumpeting Dumbo's quite recently.

bjw - even if it was accurate (which it isn't, only for certain parts of the EV), who cares? what matters is if YOU have subway access, not whether your entire neighborhood does. you can live in many places in the EV and be within a few blocks of a subway. isn't that what would matter to you when buying a place?

of course, my (bigger) point is that this "eddiewilson" is completely full of crap, and has said lots of things that make no sense whatsoever and has shown his lack of knowledge about many areas in nyc which he claims to know or have lived in. yet he posts his views on the market as if he's an authority...

it's one thing if you sold your apartment when you thought prices were getting too speculative...it's quite another if you simply could never afford to buy in manhattan, and are now on this board posting incessantly in hopes that it will help cause prices to fall. I don't think that exactly makes you some real estate soothsayer (nor do I think it will be effective).

> it's quite another if you simply could never afford to buy in manhattan, and are
> now on this board > posting incessantly in hopes that it will help cause prices to fall.

Its a good thing you don't let anything like facts or logic stand in the way of your immature need to insult...

Hey Eddie, I like logic!

For instance, if we can agree that "good subway access" is defined as living within 3-4 blocks of a subway, then by definition, a big part of the east village has "good subway access"

See how it works, Eddie?

Good logic requires good assumptions. I'm not so sure about yours. I'd say 3-4 blocks from *useful* lines (or choice) represents "good subway access". The L isn't very helpful, the 6 is very poor if you are going anywhere but the east side. F is a hair better, but slow. I'd more go with additional choices within a few more. In the end, it boils down to how bad is the trip to primary neighborhoods. To west midtown or UWS or W village, thats a pretty poor place to be. It would be much better if the 6 connected to more lines well. Even the 6/F transition is horrible. And having to go to 42 or 60 just to go west, not good.

But, even if you went with the very broad definition, that still means a HUGE chunk of the evillage has piss poor subway access... hell, when you have to pretty much leave the neighborhood to get any subway, I think you're officially talking about bottom of the barrel.

evillager, agreed, subway value differs greatly from person to person, and you shouldn't worry about the entire neighborhood. I don't know how this conversation devolved into subway analysis, but as I noted, Eddie's done this before. Sorry you find the L, 6, and F to be so poor. It's really not just about access to what you deem to be "primary neighborhoods." That's a bit arrogant.

Let's see...the 6 takes you to grand central, the F/V to Rock Center. Those take care of anywhere I would need to go to work. I can also switch to the B/D from the F and go to Columbus circle. Thankfully, I have no reason to go to times square.

And again, who cares if some porion of the EV has poor subway access? What matters is if *I* have good subway access, which I do. I am actually glad alphabet city has poor subway access, because it helps to keep down the number of tourists.

How is that arrogant exactly? I'm talking about destinations that someone living in this town would generally have to go to in the course of living here, hanging out here.. I figure access to central park or the west village or midtown is more important than access to 20th & c, no?

If good subway access is about being able to get to the places most New Yorkers would want to go, leaving out WHERE the subway line you are on goes as party of the "subway access" argument is a bit silly.

> And again, who cares if some porion of the EV has poor subway access?
> What matters is if *I* have good subway access, which I do.

Well, glad you wasted all our time then. This wasn't a thread about YOUR access to the subway and YOU getting to where YOU want to go, this was about the general transportation situation of the neighborhood... which, not after way too much time, you're finally admitting I was right about...

> And again, who cares if some porion of the EV has poor subway access? What matters
> is if *I* have good subway access, which I do. I am actually glad alphabet city
> has poor subway access, because it helps to keep down the number of tourists.

Given that alphabet city is by anyone's definition the majority of the EV, then you're clearly inferred that the majority of the EV has lousy subway access.

I don't personally care where you live, and its sort of arrogant to think that we're talking about YOU.

Its the neighborhood that was being talked about, and its pertty clear that the neighborhood has subway issues.

Sweet jesus, are you retarded? The I was just like the YOU used above.

When you buy an apartment, do you care if there are parts of your neighborhood with poor subway access, or if you have it? You said the whole EV has poor subway access...not true. Many parts have quite good access, and you are saying none do.

Also, to say the 6 is useless is pretty amazing. That gets you to a lot of financial firms, both near GC and in the 50s between 5th and lex.

Your attitudes and opinions on neighborhood (and now subways!) are absurd. I don't know why anyone would listen to you.

Eddie, it's arrogant because you assume everyone wants to go to the WV or Midtown West. I know the Sex and the City tourbus goes there, but that's actually causing some people to actually avoid that part of town. Regardless, I don't think there's a single spot in Manhattan with great subway access to every other "desirable" neighorhood. The closest thing might be living along 14th St, since the L connects to almost every single line. Also, I believe being at "20th & C" would put firmly in the East River, no?

> Sweet jesus, are you retarded?

Yes, keep praying, some day you'll get a brain.

> When you buy an apartment, do you care if there are parts of
> your neighborhood with poor subway access

Once again, it was a comparison of neighborhoods made above, not specific apartments. Unless you have trouble with reading comprehension, thats fairly obvious. It was talking about LIC vs. Evillage, etc.

This isn't about YOU, get over yourself. This is about entire neighborhoods, and yes, for the majory if the east village, subway access is piss poor...

> Eddie, it's arrogant because you assume everyone wants to go to the WV or Midtown West.

No, I didn't, you are inferring something I didn't say. But I figure anyone with a brain would figure that good transportation means ability to get to more desinations that folks are likely to want to get to. West 30s isn't a great transportation neighborhood simply because you can get to Long Island quick...

> Regardless, I don't think there's a single spot in Manhattan with great subway access
> to every other "desirable" neighorhood.

Didn't say that either. But certain neighborhoods are CERTAINLY better at that than others...

> The closest thing might be living along 14th St, since the L connects to almost every single line.

I think its one of the worst... it means a definite connection for almost anything, and that train runs very infrequently off hours. To me, the best spots would be ones with choices, and at least one going east side, and another going west, and even better having express choices.

> Also, I believe being at "20th & C" would put firmly in the East River, no?

Only if you aren't in Manhattan.

20th & C is Peter Cooper...

Actually, it all started by you saying that anywhere near a subway stop was not in the east village, as defined by you, because when you lived there alphabet city was the entire east village

Don't let those trains in DUMBO keep you up at night. Good luck with your eventual move to FIDI.

> Actually, it all started by you saying that anywhere near a subway stop was not in the east village

Not correct. It started with this sentence from me:
"I like the Evillage, but it will always suffer from the lousy transportation problem."

which you responded to with "not to change the subject, but the EV transport problem only really applies to alphabet city. depending on where you live, you may have the F/V or the 6 both close by (or both)"

The talk was clearly neighborhood. You started the talk about personal when you went to "well, I can get to the 6"

> Don't let those trains in DUMBO keep you up at night.

Sour grapes? And I live closer to the Brooklyn, we don't hear the trains...

> Good luck with your eventual move to FIDI.

Why thank you. But, I'm thinking long term its probably UES...

Guys please! Can we go back to crapping on LIC?!

> Guys please! Can we go back to crapping on LIC?!

LOL.

I did say I like Evillage... in the end, I think we can all agree that its got a lot more going for it than LIC.

"No, I didn't, you are inferring something I didn't say."

Well, you actually heavily implied it, by following the phrase "primary neighborhoods" with "west midtown, UWS, or W village": "In the end, it boils down to how bad is the trip to primary neighborhoods. To west midtown or UWS or W village, thats a pretty poor place to be."

The L is way better than you give it credit for. It runs quite frequently, at almost any time of day/night, and is the only line that tells you when the next train is arriving.

20th and C is PCV, but it's essentially on the FDR.

> 20th and C is PCV, but it's essentially on the FDR.

None of those are in the East River...
;-)

> The L is way better than you give it credit for. It runs quite frequently, at
> almost any time of day/night,

A friend from hs is in the arts, and still lives in PC/ST. I've gone to him and waited for him enough times to disagree with that statement. I also happened to take that train daily at one point... but I recognize that things could have improved (but didn't really).

> and is the only line that tells you when the next
> train is arriving.

It got that because it was the worst train, it has major issues with the tunnel and how often they can run trains. Also, just ask a WB person how many times there have been MAJOR issues with that train.

The big point is, its about total trip. I'd rather be on some lines that get you pretty close with one train, with some requiring a change, then HAVING to change for almost anywhere. When you have to factor in wait times, that can be SUPER long...

Sorry, TheFed, I fell off again!

LIC sucks!

Eddie, you are offensive. Long Island City is a community where people live. If you don't want to live in LIC, then don't, but you can't judge the area if you are an outsider. I suggest if you have nothing nice to say you don't say anything.

Hmmm, another person who thinks Eddie Wilson is an ass. Interesting . . .

> Hmmm, another person who thinks Eddie Wilson is an ass. Interesting . . .

Another 100, and I can be LICComment!

Eddie, the FDR abuts the river, but I'm not sure what your actual point is here.

"Also, just ask a WB person how many times there have been MAJOR issues with that train."

I am a "WB person," so I have pretty good first-hand knowledge of the L's issues. I can tell you things have much improved this year. It is one of the better lines in the system now, believe it or not. The L was one of my major concerns prior to moving, so I timed several commutes to make sure. The total trip time is consistently good. It took me just as long to get to work from W74th to Wall St as it does now.

I rode the L when I lived in Wmsbgh 1984-1990, and I'm glad to hear that it's become #1 by some measures -- it certainly had nowhere to go but up. However, the key problem always hovers over it: it's a two-track line with a two-track tunnel, leaving little room for flexibility when something goes wrong or track maintenance is needed.

Too bad the 2nd Ave. subway will (if ever opened) be the same scenario, but with the Lex nearby as an alternative, at least. At one point it was planned as a six-track line.

I've been a very harsh critic of the L so I thought I should chime in. The congestion and breakdowns (or shutdowns, as it's been an experimental line for the MTA) have been unbearable in recent years. Reliability and frequency were the big problems in years past; the congestion seemed to develop along with the influx to WB and Greenpoint (the demographic shift was obvious). The past few months have been better, congestion-wise, though yesterday really sucked (couldn't fit on the first train and was squeezed between riders on the 2nd). I wonder if the lessening of congestion has to do with commuter's lighter summer schedules? I hope not.

Folks in Brooklyn don't have it as bad as I do at 1st Ave, and people are always left stranded at 3rd Ave after the train has reached capacity at 1st. I know bjw2103 can fall back on the J/M/Z for work, but I'd be very wary if I was totally at the mercy of the L. Besides going home and getting a bicycle, no one's ever explained to me what someone dependent on the L does when it's not running. A bus from Bklyn? I'm sure the car services are instantly swamped when the train is down.

As for its #1 status, it was also 3rd worst for congestion ("Chance Of Getting A Seat"), but like I said, it has been better lately than in the recent past.

tenemental, I can't speak to the L of old, outside of the handful of times I used it per month, but the breakdowns have not posed a problem for me as of yet. I figure that problem will rear its head eventually, of course, but I've been good so far. The only major delay was at 6th Ave, which isn't a big deal, depending on where you're headed. I do have the JMZ, though that's a 15 min walk from my place. Overall though, I do agree the situation is far from ideal, but I think you will find similar problems in many Manhattan neighborhoods. When I lived on the UES, I only had the 6, and if there were issues, I had the buses (which are incredibly slow). I've also lived on the UWS and in Nolita, which were much better, but my gf lives on the LES, and the F is pretty bad, especially on weekends, so it really varies quite a bit. I've noticed more cabs in WB, and hopefully that trend continues.

> Eddie, the FDR abuts the river, but I'm not sure what your actual point is here.

Correcting your mistake. You basically inferred that there was no 20th & C, and I corrected you.

Here is your line:
> Also, I believe being at "20th & C" would put firmly in the East River, no?

What I gave was a fairly logical response to your mistake. 20th & C is NOT in the east river. Not sure why you are questioning it...