Motivated seller!

Finished price is probably $4.5 million if you can get the project finished before the market collapses.

Looks like a money pit with a bad layout. 2 dining areas, 2 kitchens, 2 foyers? Needs to be almost completely gutted. What would a buyer want to do with it? It already has 5 bedrooms. As I have said before, no more than 10% of combined apartments make sense. Frankly I would take it back to two units.

But if you keep it combined you only have to put in one new kitchen ;)

Haha. I guess time will tell. $300 per sq ft seems to be low of a discount for a gut reno, carry and trouble if $1500 is the finished price.

At what point does an oversized apartment get a discount to ppf? So much wasted space!

Disagree that this floorplan presents problems. It could be quite nice. The second kitchen gives options to convert to a real master bath and laundry room. I did not do the math, but it actually seems larger than 3100 sq ft. I have no idea what renovated apartments sell for around these parts, but it looks like the sponsor has flipped some recently renovated with rather low end renovations in the $1500/ft range. This building went condo 25 years ago -- seems like the sponsor has held a large number of units for a long time.

sport, I share your feelings about the lay out. It can be very nice and some one can put central ac by taking up one of the back windows. The square footage is certainly no more than 3100. I did see previous sales some of which are much higher floors. A big chunk of reno cost is labor, carry and trouble which does not change that much with low-end vs high end. My estimate of current gut reno discount is min $500 per sq ft ($300-400 for actual reno, the rest for carry and dedicating 6-12 months of your life to reno) as there is plenty of finished supply in the market.

Ali, What do you think will be the finished price?

Lose the closet between the foyers, combine the space into a long gallery. Part of left kitchen gets added to existing bath to become bigger master bath, remaining space and closets get rationalized into larger MBR. BR to right of LR/DR becomes library opening onto LR/DR, bedroom to left of LR/DR gets incorporated into LR/DR. You end up with 3BR/4BA, with a better proportion of public and private space, well delineated, and some nice large public rooms. (assuming all the usual caveats about what's behind the walls).

I think most would do 4 bedrooms or least have an option to use this as one as it is 3100 sq ft space. But it can be very elegant either in 3 or 4 bedroom config. I will watch it to see where it clears. If it clears near $3.5mm, the market is hotter than I think.

Aaron2, I see the possibilities for the front area - adding a library/media room etc. But I still see a lot of wasted space. Ending up with a cost of over $5 million for a three bedroom on the third floor of a non-luxury prewar condo on W101st doesn't sound to me like a smart investment. The sales history for the building does not show anything even close to that price.

The broker's website shows more pix:

http://rachelrealtynyc.com/ListingDetails/408200/825-West-End-Avenue-Upper-West-Side-New-York-NY-10025?page=1&isFirstListing=True&listingType=S,T&sortOrder=Price&sortAsc=false&backAction=Index

... and also shows the missing tax charges of $2,698 per month. Monthlys don't seem bad at all at least on a per sq. ft basis.

But if you turn it back to two units, you could probably save a lot of money on renovation costs and sell them both for more than $5 million combined, based on the recent sales and listings in the building.

"At what point does an oversized apartment get a discount to ppf?"

That's an interesting question because it seems as if for the past several years developers have felt that price per square foot increases the larger you get.

Very true, 30, in fact I think that has been a pretty consistent rule for many years. But in this case, does ppf increase with size even when #bedrooms is reduced? And isn't a 3,100 sf three bedroom a little on the large size?

There is something wrong when architectural design, even from 90 years ago, is ignored. There are still a lot of buyers, myself included, who treasure classic layouts even to the point of paying a premium.

So the way I see it, figure out what is the optimal size for a 3-4-5 bedroom apartment in a certain building on a certain floor in a certain neighborhood and then figure out what incremental value to give to the excess space. The law of diminishing returns tells you that the excess space cannot have the same utility of the optimal space.

But if you look at the architectural tenets of the most valued architects (such as Candela) they call for the greatest amounts of what you would call "wasted space", and if you think about it, in NYC it is the ultimate luxury (because you can find any amenity you want... Except for an extra square foot inside your apartment).

Ximon, Most people will make it 4 beds and an optinal 5 th bedroom cum study. 4 bed rooms are hard to come by and there are more and more families wanting to live in the city rather than Greenwich.

Also, take a look at the apartments on the market over $30 million - they are mostly 3 bedrooms (as opposed to more) even as the square footage increases. Perhaps you could say that for the wealthy, the utility of greater square footage exceeds the utility of more bedrooms. You can see this in most of the most expensive buildings (like along 5th Ave, Park Ave, CPW, etc) - they all take the square footage which would have been used for apartments with greater room count but instead use it on room scale and "wasted space".

I think we agree on most of this. There are two questions:
1. What is the optimal size for an apartment based on #bedrooms, type of building, neighborhood, and overall price point?
2. For luxury, aren't the rules essentially the same except that the tipping point between optimal space and too much space is just higher?

And 30, "for the wealthy, the utility of greater square footage exceeds the utility of more bedrooms" can only be true within a range of sf. Funny though that the wealthy in the suburbs seem to prefer more land to show off their wealth but in the city they seem to prefer more "wasted space". Six of one, I guess.

I might be wrong but I think this WEA unit doesn't meet the criteria for such luxury treatment which is why I think it could be a real money pit unless it gets split up. But as we know, there are always buyers who do not care about investment value.

But I I agree, 300, that there is much demand for 4 bedrooms especially on WEA which is a preferred area for families.

30, Very large prewar came with eat-in kitchens and maid rooms, library and dining room for 3 bedrooms. Effective what we would call 4 bedrooms today. Unfortunately, these apartments may be short on bathrooms which is why they have not been conveyed to 4 bedrooms 4.5 baths. This apartment is in the utility market rather than luxury - perhaps priced like luxury. There is a demand of 4 bedrooms from people with 2-3 kids with both parents working in the city who want an extra room for help or visiting family. Not everyone can afford a townhouse.

It isn't priced anywhere close to luxury. Limestone Jesus units start around $4,000 psf. And if you made this into a 3 BR it would come with an EIK, FDR, library, etc.
I think you are double dipping with discounts - the appartments which are selling

30, I can not say where it will sell due to my limited expertise in that area but it does seem richly priced by at least 10-15% percent if not more (assuming fully finished nice reno is $1500 per sq ft). I am sure the seller will negotiate as it says "motivated seller".

Ximon, The split will depend on the buyer. I think a family with two or more kids will buy it. There are very few 4 bedrooms in the city and a lot of families need that. Imagine 2 kids, 2 working parents, one parent working from home from time to time or most evenings, live-in help or visiting overseas grandparents who stay for a month at a time. It is not uncommon story.

Yes, 300. This could be nice unit for the right buyer assuming they can negotiate the right price and don't go crazy on the reno. But $1,700-$1,800 psf all-in seems very wrong to me. But it's easy to spend a ton of money on this unit to properly combine and reconfigure so acquisition price is critical. This is not luxury.

It is not selling at $1200 per sq ft. Probably $1k per sq ft. Buyer can get done at $1500 fully finished including compensation for carry and trouble.

Yes, that make more sense and the less one spends the better, keeping in mind that separating the units someday might be ultimately be its highest and best use.

Sorry to be away -- I guess I'm with 30yrs at $4.5 mm renovated, but I don't even know that I'd want to sell it at that. It kind of comes down to, "what does 'prewar' mean to you?"

High, beamed ceilings and multiple exposures make for a wonderful home, and that great, square living room is a prize (and the size of my entire apartment). But... half the panel moldings are gone, you don't have a fireplace, and you're in a building without a roof deck. Put 20% down and you're paying $27,000/month for it, with limited tax deductions, while for $29,000/month you can rent a 5,000-sf renovated townhouse in the 70s, and have fireplaces and a garden -- the latter is what my clients would do.

ali r.

I disagree with comment that combinations don't make sense.

We did a 3 studio combination in Brooklyn heights that is awesome floorplan.

I do agree however that your problem is going to be 3rd floor. If this was on the 10th-15th floor would be snapped up at that price as coop charges are totally reasonable.

If they would allow a kitchen to be replaced with a bathroom there is an easy fix. Turn the kitchen attached to the laundry room into a maids quarter with a small bathroom (actuallt has a window there so I'd try to keep it where the bed would go). then kill the one bedroom right off the dining area on the left and turn the two dining rooms into a large dining living area. Then there are still 4 bedrooms with ensuite bathrooms. Only issue I'd see then is there is no powder room (bathroom access only through bedrooms)

Now here is a proposed combo unit that I think makes some sense. Still a little wasted space but I always wanted a mud room.

Similar in many ways to 825 WEA, 161W75 also has 5 beds, 3,100 sf (as combined). Its proposed for 4 beds (2 ensuite) plus a nice laundry room and butlers pantry connected to the dining room. Areas devoted to kitchen seem a little large and dining room seems a little too small but maybe that's nitpicking.

Wonder if and what it sold for.

https://streeteasy.com/sale/1162356

$4.85mm. 75th is probably 15-20% premium to 100th.

Makes sense, 300. Any thoughts on reno cost? Less than WEA?

You mean what it would have cost as a few pix I looked at are nice.

What is would cost as it looks like apts. are not yet combined. But not a lot of info, I agree.

One of the apts was nicely renovated. But the other one was not. Too hard to guess. In general, it is minimum $300 per sq ft for an individual for a basic high-end (no slab marble etc) reno. Kitchen sets you back by $75k ($20-25k for appliances, $10k countertops, $20k cabinets, plus floors, labor, plumbing, lighting etc). Plus carry plus trouble. Italian/ German kitchen is another 20-30k and 6 months wait.

C'mon. Who needs a mudroom in the city? Talk about pretentious. Hows about a trophy room and a gun room as well? Perhaps also a tack room? Sheesh.

Yes, Squid. No New York apt. dweller needs a mud room. And thankfully a gun room although I feel certain this exists as well. I will give the owner/architect the benefit of the doubt and assume the designation was somewhat tongue-in-cheek but it does support 30's argument that frivolous excess space has a certain cache.

Now I am thinking of safe rooms. Anyone know of an apt. or townhouse with such a feature? Doubt it would ever be advertised so i wonder how someone looking for one would find it.

I think brokers at that level would know about them, word of mouth.

I can think of two owners I know who have safe rooms, one in Midtown and one on the UES. The problem is, of course, that once you build a room like that you can't get cellphone service.

ali r.
{upstairs realty}

Squid/Ximon, In the city, mud room is simply where you take off your shoes (there are many no shoe inside households, or when it is raining or snowing, umbrellas), hang your coat, and put in bikes etc. Essentially a giant walk in closet close to the entrance. It is very useful if you have the space and the layout permits it.

Ali, townhouses I assume? Did you help either sell them?

Sorry Ali. A better question would be how would you sell it if you had the listing?

>>Squid/Ximon, In the city, mud room is simply where you take off your shoes (there are many no shoe inside households, or when it is raining or snowing, umbrellas), hang your coat, and put in bikes etc. <<

ie: a foyer ;-)

The difference is that you can close the mud room cum walk in closet doors and keep the junk away from your sight. I would have a much smaller foyer if I can get this type of arrangement.

Ximon, I sold neither of them. One is in a townhouse, one is in a loft....Owners are people I know from social connections/charity events.

How would I sell it? Hmm, like any other feature; I'd think "who does this appeal to, and how do I reach them?" (For example, does the person have a safe room because they're a prepper, and if so ... how to find other preppers? Brokers may try to make real estate marketing look like a black art, but at the end of the day... it's just marketing.)

If you're still curious, here's how one big-firm broker addressed the issue in Tribeca:

https://streeteasy.com/sale/1277605

Thanks again, Ali. On the floor plan, I see a room in the cellar with no designation. Hmmm. I will admit to being fascinated by certain goings on as I am far removed from living in that world.

A prepper! Never would have thought of that kind of buyer. Thinking more of the rich and famous, maybe some Brazilian billionaire who fears having his wife or children kidnapped.

I worked in the old Citibank headquarters on Park Avenue and heard the rumors of Sandy Weill building a safe room in the basement. Soundestrue from what I knew of him.

"Do you own a ranch in Montana stocked with semi-automatic weapons and 2 years worth of food and water? Have I got the New York apartment for you!"

You would think that a dyed-in-the-wool wealthy capitalist would be more bullish on the future of the world. But I guess smart investors will always hedge their bets!

I can't find the article now, but I recently read a piece by some Professor / Consultant where he sat down with a group of very wealthy people at some conference (?Bilderberg?) and was surprised that all the questions were about what they should do after the coming apocalypse (like "How do I make sure that when me and my family retreat to our bunker that my security guards don't kill us and take our stuff?". The author mused how he was going to politely answer "How about treating them like human beings before that happens?").

https://www.ft.com/content/afe67b5c-fea0-11e6-8d8e-a5e3738f9ae4

Fascinating article! Reminds me of the fear in the 1920's about the poor revolting against the rich. Very different mentality than the nuclear dystopia fear of the 1950's but strangely similar to the zombie apocalypses envisioned by our current media culture.

It reminds me to be kinder to the "help" in my full-service condo.

https://streeteasy.com/building/885-west-end-avenue-new_york/8b

Coop not condo, needs total reno, in contract probably @ $1200/SF.

This is in the hot market segment. Also, I would think one just updates Kitchen and Baths and does not move any walls or try to add central ac. Floors seems to be fine. So may be only $200-$250k all in for reno as there is not much you can do with the bathrooms due to their small size. Even cheaper if they do Ikea cabinets, basic retiling in the bathrooms etc.

I like the classic 6 layout but wonder why the kitchen is so far from the dining room. Did there used to be a door between maid's room and kitchen? Kitchen was expanded no? I agree only a moderate reno is required. Good value in this location.

1,500-1,600 sf?

In the original layout there is no door from the maid's room into the hallway, but you have to enter through the kitchen (I think we we're the first to make this change when we renovated 3B).
The unit probably needs all new electric (which will entail a decent amount of plaster work as well). There are gorgeous wood moldings and doors throughout the unit (unfortunately it looks like the French doors between the living room and dining room are missing in this one) and it will take a lot of time consuming hand work to uncover them. (Side story: this work takes a long time. When we were mostly done with our renovation the Board became concerned with how long we we're taking and called me in for a meeting to discuss what we were doing. The night before the meeting, one of the Board members had the Super let her into the unit to see for herself. I don't know why she didn't just ask me, but "whatever." So the meeting where I think they intended to chew me out for doing something different than I had told them turned into a compliment session where they told me they couldn't believe anyone was actually restoring all the woodwork,etc.)
In any case, I think a proper renovation of this unit will be more costly than you guys think (as someone who renovated the exact same unit on another floor).

Also, if you want to add a washer/dryer - which the co-op has allowed in the past - there will be Plumbing work to be done as well.

When I renovated my classic 5 on CPW I made sure to keep layout as original as possible. It's true that simply putting back what was there before can be costly but I think "structural work" like electric upgrades, w/d, and restoring what made these units special is money well spent. If not in this cycle then the next. I converted my kitchen bathroom into a w/d closet as it already had the drain. But bringing more electricity from basement cost me $1,000 per floor. Still think it was worth it.

I don't disagree. My question is why would you spend close to $2 million on this unit and then "cheap out" on the renovation? I think if you want to do the optimal renovation - which will include not only a kitchen and 2 1/2 to 3 baths, but electrical, plumbing, and a lot of plaster and woodwork - you're on the high side of $500,000 (if you use the kind of contractor capable of that kind of restoration).

30, If you do all the work you mention which will turn it into a gut reno, it will be at least 300 per square ft plus carry plus trouble.

Perhaps I am out of touch with how hot this end of the market is way up on the upper west side. I do keep in mind that the new condo will have larger bathrooms to comply with the ada code and will be at least 1800 sq ft for 3 bedrooms rather than 1600 sq ft for this including exterior walls.