Brooklyn real estate Booming

Apologies for the run-on, always formats this way when I use my tablet.

Perhaps you should consider Brooklyn, Richard.

So how do you feel about the explanation of poor sales at Brooklyn Point being COVID-19?

Ah, people mixing new/recent development with resales. New developments are fked every where.

Lifestyle wise, I love Brooklyn. Being 1 stop away is one of FiDi's great draws. You might recall I lived in Fort Greene for many years. But these days I'm involved in so much stuff around the city that having options (both for myself and my eventual post-Covid guests) is more important than direct proximity to any one neighborhood.

Crossing the river would curtail my quick access to places like Williamsburg (J), LIC (E), and Jersey City (PATH). And I'd probably lose either the UWS/Harlem or the UES too, unless I happened to pick one of the few buildings on top of the unbranched 2345 trunk line downtown, which have the same overbuilt-at-taxpayer-expense issues as FiDi condos.

Money wise, I do not buy things that are booming.

Every time I thought about moving to Clinton Hill because I love the housing stock there, I remembered what a PITA it was to get there whenever we bought and sold units (except by driving, which I did whenever possible because it was so much easier).

That's another thing about some neighborhoods in Brooklyn:
If you want to have a car you either have to deal with the nightmare of street parking or use a garage which I find too far away to be really useful.

I owned a '99 turbo Miata during my "brownstones in the boroughs" days. That little thing could beat anyone off the line and squeeze into any spot.

Still not worth it. I might buy a home, but on cars I'm fully in @nada's camp now. You can rent a ton of (kart) track time for the cost of one ASP ticket.

For city life, trains are the mode to beat, and it doesn't take a genius to predict where their rails will lead in 10 or 20 years. (hint: not Clinton Hill)

(If it were solely up to me, I'd e-bike almost everywhere, dramatically opening up the range of neighborhoods with my desired level of access / optionality. However, zero of my friends/family agree with this view, and it's no fun to travel alone. So "live atop a train hub" it is.)

In terms of access to variety of trains plus livable neighborhood it's hard to beat Prime GV.

Yup, I've got a saved search with a custom boundary around 12th to 16th St, 4th to 7th Aves.

Not many bargains in that corridor, but ya never know...

Save 54 West 16th St. The units used to sell for reasonable prices, and if the market cracks could again. Seems to me the B line could be interesting to you if the price were right.

One nugget from Fritz Frigan's Open House Report this week:
" I find it interesting how the average attendance in Brooklyn has more than doubled from Manhattan."

Before moving to Brooklyn or any other place, I think it's important that you come to terms with that's where you will happily live your 'social' life. Even though for many years I lived in small apartments in the West Village, knowing I could have doubled my space for less money in Brooklyn. But that's because I had kids going to school in the West Village, and it's where all my friends lived or at least lived nearby and I lived my life.

That said, when I finally made the move to Fort Greene, I would feel the stress melt away after emerging from the C train at Greene ave. and walking through the park and peaceful brownstone lined streets of Clinton/ Hill Fort Greene.

When was this? Ft. Greene used to be a mixed bag. I used to work there.

I loved my time in Fort Greene too — I was on Saint Felix St and Lafayette Ave. It is an extremely livable, vibrant area. And a transit hub in its own right. I was a 5 minute walk to all Atlantic-Barclays trains, plus the C and the G (LIC/Wburg...) I found it very easy to get other Brooklynites to come visit me. Just get off the train and come over before you continue your commute further into BK...

Not sure what you mean by mixed bag?

I had friends that attended Pratt in the 80's, dicey may be one way to describe it. However, by the early 90's it was being populated by a very diverse bunch of folks. Great Senegalese food on Fulton (best I've had outside of France, have not been the Senegal yet but it's on the list), the first South African restaurant, along with a handful of very good French restaurants. Also one of my favorite parks in New York, with decent tennis courts.

Wish I would have grabbed a brownstone back in those days, around $500k? Bedstuy they were $350kish, But I was working in R.E. 6 months and touring/writing records the other 6 (early midlife crisis : )

The hunt for a brownstone continues...

I think the problem you might have anywhere in NYC (not just Brooklyn) with buying a brownstone is that the areas where prices come down the most are mostly going to be the areas where crime/social unrest/homelessness/unemployment go up the most.

I guess that's the price you have to pay for cheap real estate in New York, until the next wave of gentrification?

I lived in the East Village in 1982 because that's all I could afford, I wasn't a rich kid performing a social experiment. Being part of that community for about 4 years, I remember the big complaint back then was there were not enough police in the neighborhood, that the police ignored it.

30, What is your view on Park Slope Brownstone prices vs say the areas where you can still get a 20 foot Brownstone for under $2mm?

Will the taxes get revised significantly (say 50+ percent higher vs current cap of 20 percent) in the next 5 years from the current low level?

30, good tip on 54 West 16th.

10 West 15th seems to be in a similar vein. The living rooms tend to be narrower than I'd like, but that's pretty normal outside of downtown loft conversion. Based on how the shares are allocated, the ultimate play might be to combine two studios on a low floor...

If Stringer beats Adams, I think property tax renormalization will be on the table, yes.

Keith, did you ever try Abistro on Carlton/Myrtle? (in the tiny little spot that's now Lulu & Po) Best Senegalese/fusion BYOB gem in the city, the kind of place where I was always the least-cool diner in attendance, until they tried to expand into a 6X larger space on Vanderbilt/DeKalb and promptly went under.

300,
I don't follow extremely closely but it seems to me the upper end Park Slope brownstones were already struggling a bit pre-COVID, but so were the upper end Brooklyn Heights. I really don't know if we are going to see Real Estate Tax "reform" because 1) the group suing got ruled against, 2) the commission's report/recommendations were so .... namby-pamby?, and 3) there is no political champion or political will.
However if it does happen I think it's a safe bet those properties will see significantly higher taxes.

RB,
The most interesting thing about 10 West 15th Street is that it lived most of its life as 7 West 14th Street and then managed to get the shareholder will to move the entrance and avoid the stigma of being a "14th Street Building."
I did an insider rights deal there in the early 1980s.

300,
I did a quick check and AFAICT despite "Brooklyn booming" as far as townhouses over $6 million go you've got 25 on the market and 2 in contract. So a "market pulse" of 8%? And 3 months past market re-opening almost all prior contracts would have been cleared out by closings at this point so it's hard to blame that for the number.

Thank you 30 for the info.

Park slope townhouses; 12 in contract with 21 not in contract. Market pulse 12/33.

Point being any insinuations that Brooklyn is booming and it's not about prices, clearly in the high end Brooklyn is doing just as poorly as Manhattan is.

Also, would you call 36% market pulse "booming"? Or is it just relatively not God awful?

Weak pulse as opposed to no pulse?

I would say there is a moderate pulse overall, perhaps a bit stronger for townhomes under 3 million, large homes with outdoor space in well trodden neighborhoods. We currently have three offers out, one of them recently accepted on some beautiful homes in Brooklyn, all under $3M.

I think given that many families are just coming back into the city after camping away, 36 percent market pulse on the high $ end of BK is not bad at all.

Manhattan luxury Market showing some signs of life...

The Real Deal: Manhattan sees highest number of luxury contracts signed since early March.
https://therealdeal.com/2020/09/28/manhattan-sees-highest-number-of-luxury-contracts-signed-since-early-march/

You really have to cherry pick to get that. If you want to call the "high $ end" for Brooklyn $2 million (which at this point I think is too low) I get 244 contracts vs 920 listings or 26.5%

How is 26.5% compared to preCOVID times?

https://therealdeal.com/2020/09/28/its-just-one-week-but-brooklyn-luxury-contract-signings-fell-50/

Here's an interesting chart from Jonathan Miller about historic sales volume in Brooklyn:
https://millersamuel.us6.list-manage.com/track/click?u=47540980899c1d755b4cddc48&id=18fd6eb275&e=788d53ca70

Boom!
https://therealdeal.com/2020/10/12/brooklyn-home-sales-fell-at-a-record-rate-in-q3/

https://abc7ny.com/stray-bullet-kills-20-year-old-college-student-visiting-new-york-city/7301748/

The interview of his parents was very sad.

https://streeteasy.com/blog/brooklyn-apartments-with-price-cuts/

"Home prices in January also showed major declines compared to a year prior, according to the report, falling a precipitous 6.2% in Manhattan and 5.4% in Brooklyn. "
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-19/january-home-prices-in-new-york-city-had-record-declines

Even single family homes in BK?

Let's not forget about Brooklyn;

https://therealdeal.com/2021/03/30/brooklyn-sees-huge-boom-in-luxury-contracts-signed/

So we finally have a Brooklyn market report from Urbandigs, market pulse at 95.

The Brooklyn market under 1.3-1.5 is pure insanity right now. In Brooklyn it's possible to find two bedroom one baths for under a million, when these listings manifest we're seeing up to 14 bids come in!

Love to hear from those bidding on homes in Brooklyn.

Brooklyn market report:
https://youtu.be/-EQYgI3EOkU

Of course Brooklyn is much vaster than the neighborhoods that we cover. I guess one way to define neighborhoods we're working in would be those actively covered by rebny member firms.

Keith Burkhardt
TBG

Nobody wants to talk about Brooklyn? To quote John Walkup: "this Market is on fire".

Since none of you bears are going to pat me on the back, I'll have to do it myself- I nailed this call 8 months or so ago. I don't have a crystal ball, but I do have a pretty deep client roster and I was only talking about what we were actually experiencing. I said this a long time ago at the beginning of all this, buyers were/are treating Brooklyn like a suburb. And now looking at all the data, we can see that actually was indeed happening.

There are virtually no discounts for buying in Brooklyn right now, and quite frankly there's been very little discount going all the way back to the beginning of this pandemic.

https://youtu.be/AiIFFDuX6Z4

Keith Burkhardt
TBG

From the market pulse thread. But I am not a bear.
Keith, You were the first one to inform people of how hot the BK market is. In the meantime, is Manhattan going to do what BK is doing in under $4mm resales? Resales Market pulse at 68 now.

FYI: Brooklyn is a big diverse borough. For all intents and purposes I'm discussing the neighborhoods actively covered by rebny member brokers.

So far we're not seeing any exponential price moves up with Brooklyn properties according to the data. I think that might start to change. We're currently involved in so many calls for highest and best I don't see how we can't start seeing prices go up more.

Brooklyn Market pulse at almost 1...!

Urbandigs Brooklyn report:
https://youtu.be/svOeUHoSBag

Keith Burkhardt
TBG

NYT interviews with the mayoral candidates are kind of snippy, IMHO, but they have managed to hook both Ray McGuire and Shaun Donovan on the question of the median home price in Brooklyn (I haven't read all eight yet, so I don't know if they asked anyone else).

LOL yes, 100K median price in Brooklyn? What century are they living in?
All I could think of was the Arrested Development scene that became a meme.
"I mean, it's one banana, Michael. How much could it cost? 10 dollars?"
https://tenor.com/view/arrested-development-lucille-bluth-bananas-gif-5831031

Anyway, the mayors race looks like it will be a total clownshow as ever.

Whether it's median incomes or median prices of real estate, it never seems to reflect reality.

It's funny that somehow people have pegged me as a 'bull', really I'm just trying to follow the data and the trends I'm experiencing. I'm certainly very optimistic, but professionally we do much better in a falling market, crushed market or even a stable market. Very strong sellers markets like we're seeing in much of Brooklyn, not so much.

And I'm also starting to see another trend that develops in sellers markets, the obnoxious level of listing brokers going through the roof. They associate the strong seller trend with their skill set, like the six offers that come in after the first open house had something to do with them. It's a minority group, but it's extremely frustrating and annoying to have to deal with.

Our push into listing properties couldn't have come at a better time. Just about anyone with a pulse can sell most properties in Brooklyn right now.

How did so many people, including the press miss what was happening in the great borough of Brooklyn?

Brooklyn market report and some really interesting charts:

https://youtu.be/OsYctbGZNxA

Keith Burkhardt
TBG

Vail real estate booming:

Residential Real Estate
81 properties are Under Contract so far this month compared to a total of 121 in May 2020.
154 Closed Sales in April compared to 52 in 2020
The most expensive sale in April- a 10,127 sq/ft home in Strawberry Park with 8 beds and 10 baths sold for $10,400,000.

If you're working in Brooklyn or looking to buy an apartment or brownstone there you know the market is absolutely on fire. How long will it last? That's always the million dollar question.

Some great data and charts from Noah and John at Urbandigs verifying what's going on with their excellent data and charts. And also some interesting rental information.

https://youtu.be/gwxd5Iautd0

Thanks for the plug Keith! I just want to share that we are putting final touches on multiple price indexes for Manhattan and BK markets coming to urbandigs soon! Transparency is good!

Thanks for the plug Keith! I just want to share that we are putting final touches on multiple price indexes for Manhattan and BK markets coming to urbandigs soon! Transparency is good!

Everything's on fire volume-wise, but is 2020 a good data measure ?

How does 2021 volume compare to 2019 ? I suggest that's a more fair comp

Admin2009

We are as strong /crazy strong relative to past years, including 2014/15. No one is using 2020 as a baseline for current market strength.

https://www.urbandigs.com/resale-charts/monthly-contract-activity/?agentid=9325

Just had brunch in a restaurant in Ft. Greene; some really beautiful houses and townhouses there

Yes, I lived there in the mid-90s absolutely loved it! The park is wonderful along with the tennis courts.

https://untappedcities.com/2013/10/24/nyc-historic-districts-fort-greenes-landmark-architecture/

People who were willing to what I call “urban homestead” in areas like that at that time certainly saw enormous appreciation in value

I didn't feel like a homesteader in 1995. It was really a wonderful neighborhood, community with some great restaurants! Took in many shows at BAM, great bike riding and relatively easy to get a spot on a tennis court in Fort Greene Park! And one of the few places to get really delicious Senegalese food in New York City!

I was more into playing music at the time, but I do remember looking at Brownstones in Fort Greene and I believe they were about $500k, seems unbelievable now. I know I looked at some homes in Bed Stuy back then, they were going for around $300K. And of course co-ops and condos were downright cheap!

The values are much different now
Brooklyn is a great borough, but not a bargain anymore

I wasn't living in the hood as a social experiment(my father was a factory worker). I know first hand you need cops. When I lived on ave. C in 1982 (your friend 30 will tell you what that hood looked like back then). People in the neighborhood were pissed off that the cops ignored them, 911 was literally a joke.

It's one thing to be upset about quality of life issues when you're living on the upper west side. It's another thing to be dealing with life and death issues when you live in Brownsville. Unfortunately most progressives are disconnected from the reality of the streets, however well intentioned they may be. There are just some really really bad people out there, and they need to be dealt with appropriately to keep everybody safe.

Why is Brooklyn so hot and booming, but not Queens? Why is Queens almost never-ever discussed on this board?

@Krolik - Brooklyn is fashionable, Queens is practical.
NOT a dis on Queens btw, maybe more a dis on Brooklyn really.

Honestly contemplating renting out our BK condo for $$$$ and renting in an equivalent Queens LIC rental.

Equivalent looks to be 30% less. Bigger driver is its a much, much easier commute to Midtown East where my wife & I have ended up for work in the years since moving to Brooklyn & foreseeable future given our industry.

I think it only works well if I convert it to a rental property for tax purposes, but then I lose flexibility to use as my residence again.

I find LIC convenient, but pretty expensive. My brother was renting there and paying nearly the same rent as I pay in Central Midtown (my place is a good deal though). Cannot believe rent in Brooklyn is even more expensive.

Another friend bought a 2br/2ba early-2000s resale condo 2 years ago in LIC for >$1.35mm which also sounds pretty expensive. There were only two years left on the tax abatement on that place, so the abatement could not have contributed that much to value.

By the way, why would you lose flexibility to use rented apartment as a personal residence later?

I walked around North/West Astoria by the N line (pre pandemic) and found it surprisingly hip, to my taste better than Wburg which at this point has become overdone.

This New York Post writer definitely got this part of the story wrong. Brooklyn became a first destination for buyers and renters over 10 years ago. I think Manhattan became less special to many New Yorkers when it became more and more homogenized from neighborhood to neighborhood.

Brooklyn was able to hang on to the feeling you had when you lived in Tribeca or the West Village, with small cafes and shops etc.

"Brooklyn had always been NYC’s No. 2.

It was for hipsters. It was for broke young people. It was for those who “gave up” on Manhattan."

New York Post : Brooklyn real estate is booming — but should you buy or rent?.
https://nypost.com/2021/06/03/brooklyn-real-estate-is-booming-but-should-you-buy-or-rent/

Nothing lasts forever, but Brooklyn, you go... If you're a seller in Brooklyn, forget about seasonality, take advantage of this momentum and get your property to market.

Our listing business is in full swing right now. Keep an eye out, we have three more new listings coming in Brooklyn. You know us for rebates and transparency. Now we're taking our listing service, that was once exclusively for our own clients, to the masses. And yes, you will save money. And you will get the same high level of service. "75% of selling your home is getting the price right." What do you think about that?

The Real Deal: An $8M Dumbo condo tops Brooklyn’s luxury contracts.
https://therealdeal.com/2021/06/08/an-8m-dumbo-condo-tops-brooklyns-luxury-contracts/

It's only 1 deal point out of many, but here you go. Closed today:

524 Manhattan Avenue #4B
Purchased July 2011
$697,501

524 Manhattan Avenue #4B
2 beds 1,050 sqft
$1,299,000 SOLD (Actual $1.365MM)
06/11/2021

The Real Deal: Massive Mill Basin townhouse tops Brooklyn contracts.
https://therealdeal.com/2021/06/14/massive-mill-basin-townhouse-tops-brooklyn-contracts/

We don't see too many (any?) listings here in Mill Basin, but it has some pretty pricey real estate. I love the proximity to the beach and Jamaica Bay. As a kid there was a lobster house or something right off Flatbush that we would eat at. I think it's still there? And close to a hidden gem of a golf course, Marine Park GC.

So a narrative here is that Brooklyn has been booming in the aftermath of the pandemic. However, when I look at the SE index of same-home resales, which is the best metric I am aware of for the market, it doesn't show that at all.

April 2021 has the index at $650K.

April 2020 has the index at $690K, or $720K inflation-adjusted.

Jan 2007 has the index at $750K, or $1M inflation-adjusted.

Inflation-adjusted, it'd take a 10% increase to get to 2020 levels and a 50% increase to get to 2007 levels. Or if you don't believe in inflation, a 6% and 15% increase, respectively.

What do you all think is going on w.r..t the discrepancy between the narrative here and the actual data?

Here is the latest Brooklyn market update from John and Noah at Urbandigs along with some good charts and data. As a broker in the market and with 18 deals in contract, a few Brooklyn listings and 2 current accepted offers (BK). If you are trying to purchase a brownstone (in brownstone Brooklyn) the market is brutal (buyers please chime in here) or a condo under $2M, also pretty brutal.

If the SE index is telling you something else? I can't explain it, however, if you look at some of the data on transactions in what I call 'REBNY' Brooklyn available on www.urbandigs.com , I think you will see a different story than what you are suggesting based on SE index.

Urbandigs recent Brooklyn breakdown:

https://youtu.be/CSA3gJdMIfg

Would love to hear from actual Brooklyn buyers with their boots on the ground. The fact is I make a lot more money and with much less friction in a trending down market. That said whatever the market is doing, we go with the flow. Resistance leads to suffering ( ;

Keith Burkhardt
TBG

Just finished building out our new site (with squarespace) Let me know what you think?
www.theburkhardtgroup.com

Wow nada, the discrepancy between the SE numbers and what the brokers are anecdotally seeing (congrats Keith on so many deals!) is surprising.

Let me take a stab at reconciliation. One reason I think BK is "hot" is that I had buyers looking in a building that averages $1300/sf who saw a property listed at $1550/sf . There was a four-way bidding war, which we won, and yet ....the sellers then pulled the property from the market.

That experience made me think, "wow there's a lot of competition for properties" since I had to step over three other parties to get an accepted bid, and also "yikes, prices are really hot if the sellers won't take $1550/sf in a $1300/sf building."

But in reflection, maybe I'm not taking into account enough the Barbara Corcoran principle that "everybody wants what everybody wants." The subject property I reference above had outdoor space, and that's really popular right now. So things might seem "hot" to me because in a certain, outlying category, they are hot (parallel the way that the markets for almost all collectibles are on fire) but in a broader sense of "all Brooklyn apartments" everything's more business as usual.

It is winter, and the brokers are seeing the Christmas trees, but maybe you as an outside observer are seeing the whole forest?

I'm bringing a Downtown one-bedroom condo to market in a couple weeks; it's got too good a view to be cookie-cutter, but it's not in the outdoor-space-outlier category, either, so it will be interesting to see how that goes... and I'll watch Keith's listings as well.

ali r.
{upstairs realty}

Definitely anything under 2 million, preferably condo with an outdoor space, you're going to be busy.

We have a new listing on 2nd Street in Park Slope. We're Fielding a few inquiries per hour at this point. I think we have about 8 appointments scheduled, possibly more by this time.

I mostly pay attention to the data coming out of urbandigs, inventory versus contracts signed etc, It's historically pretty impressive especially for this time of year.

We're always busy, I never use my particular business as a proxy for what's going on in the market. Though I think it can be helpful in giving me an indication on the overall market. I also randomly talk to our attorneys and bankers to ask them what they're seeing and experiencing. And then I look at the Brooklyn dashboard on Urbandigs site, to look at the data and then maybe play around with some of their historical charts. Put it all together and you can get a pretty good idea of what's happening.

If you're a buyer or a seller, I would really recommend using urbandigs.com, John and Noah's Friday vlog update and I believe it's Tuesday for Brooklyn should be an essential part of your real estate search. And you can also sign up for Jonathan Miller's real estate notes which get emailed to you, I believe weekly.

Keith

My biggest issue with Brooklyn remains the same, and is probably worse now.

Access/transportation

It always took forever to get in and out of whatever shtetl your visiting or live in.
And Im basing this on 20 years ago when you could drive 10 miles over the 30 mph speed limit, with much fewer bikes, and pedestrians that didnt have their heads buried in a phone or just treated the street rightly so as a dangerous place to stand.Not to mention ubers driving 12mph.
These things have virtually eliminated the Interboro parkway dropping you off on Linden Blvd/Atlantic Ave to use as a cut thru the middle of Brooklyn option to get around in reasonable time.
And lets ignore diminished parking spaces and garages.

I need my car for a variety of reasons, but even if you wanted to depend on mass transit, once your used to most of manhattan having a different subway choice for every 500 ft, vs brooklyn, if your lucky, ONE subway line within 2000 ft. (pulling these numbers out of my A, Im guessing by what it feels like)

When I mostly worked in Manhattan, I think what I loved the most about living in Brooklyn was that little bit of extra time it took to get there. When I got off the train it was a little bit like a weight off my chest, just a lighter feeling out there. At least that was my experience.

I also liked the fact that it felt so different from where I worked all day and close enough that many times I'd also ride my bike.

I appreciated the time spent on either a bus or train as well, to catch up on reading. When I lived in Greenpoint, late night G trains could be annoying.

I was considering Brooklyn but it seems crime rates have been rising in many areas in BK

truthskr10, don't you think being so crowded is the reason for the hype?

Regardless of how you interpret what 'booming' means, one of the things I was trying to point out was how far we've come since this virus first reared it's ugly head. Covid-19 essentially shut us down, filled us with fear and produced a great deal of uncertainty across many spectrums.

What do you think about the pace of recovery? Is this what you were predicting 11 months ago?

Keith Burkhardt
TBG

I still find it interesting that just a handful of people post. It appears many people just aren't up for some of the drama of participating in a forum like this. I posted our new website here, and had a giant spike in views, over 300. A lot of people lurking in the shadows... It would be great if more people especially act of buyers and sellers were participating.

NYC real estate has indeed come very far with Covid in large part in manageable state. Re Brooklyn, one often overlooked part from this discussion is low carrying charges in BK except for new high rise developments.

If you are looking to buy in Brooklyn or anywhere else in NYC and have some patience, hope for a Maya Wiley mayoral victory coupled with a Tahanie Aboushi D.A. seat win. A few more years of progressive leadership is just what the cash rich buyer needs. De Blasio took us part of the way and a few more years prioritizing hard left ideology might lead to some impressive discounts. Half off sale anyone?

i just recall some people i know have extremely low property tax in bensonhurst brooklyn, a 2 family house just pay couple hundred buck per YEAR, lower than many people's studio per MONTH

That is an amazing point regarding taxes. And by the way, any changes to taxes should change property values. There is a circularity here. If some Brooklyn properties were paying their "fair share" of taxes, they would be valued lower. However, the problem is that increasing taxes on Brooklyn homeowners is politically unpopular, so it probably won't be done.

https://news.bloombergtax.com/daily-tax-report-state/nyc-property-tax-overhaul-fizzles-out-amid-pandemic-politics

Defining what is "fair" is really challenging. Aside from the current NYC code, are there alternatives to the market value metric?

I really do agree that property taxes are "unfair". Overall, from what i see on individual property by property basis, Manhattan is paying too much and Brooklyn is paying too little (except new construction). I guess the racial inequity that is mentioned in so many articles is really between different areas of Brooklyn.

https://www.urbandigs.com/forum/index.php?threads/property-tax-reform-in-nyc.343/

Anton, the property taxes on my studio condo in Midtown are nearly $800 per MONTH.

Thanks for sharing UD forum thread that also linked to this article from June 18:
https://news.bloombergtax.com/daily-tax-report-state/dont-price-us-out-new-yorkers-plead-amid-property-tax-overhaul

Quote: Sheila Lewandowski bought her Queens home in 2001 with her former husband for $265,000. It’s probably worth four times that now.
If she had to pay four times the property taxes she did 20 years ago, she’s not sure she could afford to stay.
“I don’t want to be displaced,” said Lewandowski, who testified at a virtual New York Property Tax Commission hearing in the Bronx on Monday. “I know there are other people citywide, who’ve been in their communities for generations, who if you tax them at a full market rate, they’re out.” End quote.
And another quote: New Yorkers across the five hearings said the commission’s proposal would gut generational wealth and cause tax liens to be placed on their homes if they’re unable to pay." End quote.

It is amazing that (except for Ken Griffin), every single person mentioned in any of the articles or reports sounds like a victim. Even those who clearly are not paying their "fair share" of taxes due to assessment caps and weird tax formulas. Or those with "generational wealth".

According to the city, in 2017 aggregate Market Value (for tax), whatever that means, of Manhattan properties, was 421bn and Brooklyn properties was 264bn, or 37% less. However, taxes in Manhattan were 137bn and in Brooklyn 26bn, or 81% less.
Source: https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/finance/downloads/pdf/reports/reports-property-tax/nyc_property_fy17.pdf

I guess if a tax reform actually goes through, Brooklyn might be booming less!

Thanks for the link to the PDF. The top line numbers quoted above include all property, which is a bit misleading since we've been talking about residental taxes. The detail numbers are fascinating (if a bit tedious to compare across boroughs), and there are lots of things hiding in there. Tax exempt parcels, for example (my personal windmill to tilt at). Other than government owned property & public authorities, why are other properties exempt from taxes (looking at you, religious institutions)?

The Lower Manhattan Land Trust and Title Company (dba New York University) is wrapping up another tax-free shiny glass tower at Houston and Mercer.

Anton
"truthskr10, don't you think being so crowded is the reason for the hype?"

Im not sure I understand the question.
But I dont think that bklyn is "so crowded." I think all the dampers (lower speed limit, cameras, bike lanes, uber snails,etc) give the impression its so much more "crowded."

And sorry to all about my previous post, my last run-on sentence was structured quite poorly. :)

For 3 decades Transportation Alternatives has advocated causing congestion on purpose to get people to abandon their cars and NYC has been steadily implementing their agenda. So now we have more congestion and it's being blamed on the evil cars. The latest dogma from TA is that "only" 44% of NYC households own cars so that "minority" shouldn't be catered to. Meanwhile less than 5% commute by bicycle.

Take a look at the latest move of closing an inbound lane on the Brooklyn Bridge. If you take 1/6 of the daily car traffic on the bridge away, that represents about 30,000 passengers. Bicycle traffic would have to increase over 1,100% to make up for that which I think would mean a bike every 4 seconds or less during peak. I don't think that's physically possible with 1 lane in each direction accounting for stop-start, differing cyclist speeds, etc.

But as far as real "alternatives" bus routes in transportation desert neighborhoods are being cut back. Close to no one is going to commute 2 hours each way, 40 miles round trip daily by bicycle.

Anything that helps get cars off the streets in Manhattan is great, and this is coming from someone who lives in Manhattan and keeps a car in the city for part of the year. Look at what Paris has done to transform their streetscape. It’s a night and day improvement in street life there just over the last decade. Even Amsterdam wasn’t always a cycling-centric place - it takes a real civic effort - but limiting personal car use and encouraging cycling and public transportation is a massive boon for quality of life and street life. I’d be happy to give up having the car in town if it meant a meaningful shift away from most personal car usage in Manhattan. Rideshare/taxi/bus/bike/scooter etc are all far more efficient and better for QOL. At the very least what’s been done to 14th street should be applied to 34th, 42nd, 57th, 86th, 96th, etc. 14th is an obvious improvement sans cars.

As someone who lives near a hill on RSD, where cyclists and scooters seem to treat the red light as optional, I'm going to disagree heartily with the idea that more two wheelers = better QOL. I agree that encouraging transit use is good for the city; perhaps the next governor will see fit to invest more heavily in it.

If the major cross-town streets hadn't been ruined by the addition of bike lanes (which can easily be accessed 1 block on either side) no changes would be necessary. The entire purpose was to draw traffic away from residential side streets making them safer. The concept that the prior traffic on those main thoroughfares just disappears is beyond ludicrous. I've stood in the middle of 14th St and noted the total waste of a huge transportation asset. Plus the toll to retail business is horrific. The reports that traffic has become no worse on the other streets (like 13th) are laughable to anyone who regularly uses them.

>>If the major cross-town streets hadn't been ruined by the addition of bike lanes (which can easily be accessed 1 block on either side) no changes would be necessary.

What major cross-town streets have been ruined by the addition of bike lanes?

None, this is just an example of yelling frustrations into the void over changes that are obvious improvements to street life but that go against the wishes of people who wish to see absolutely nothing about NYC ever change. There’s data on this too - the traffic increases on 13th/15th have been offset times over by increased efficiency of busses and biking on 14th. Increased bike accessibility will only accelerate from here.

I mean, how many major cross-town streets even have bike lanes at all, let alone are "ruined" by them.

I don't get north of 23rd street on my bike much, but major crosstown streets to me are

Chambers - no bike lane
Canal - no bike lane
Delancey - no bike lane
Houston - fairly recently put in unprotected bike lanes in between the driver "door zone" and the car/truck traffic lanes.
14th Street - No bike lanes. Bus lanes, yes but no bike lanes. At least there weren't initially after the bus lanes were put in. It's been a while since I've been up there so maybe it has changed.
23rd - no bike lane.

Apologies if some of my info is out of date - my office moved from Flatiron to FiDi 3 years ago so I don't get North of Canal as often as I used to, and I haven't commuted in much since the pandemic started and the office has been closed.

I can't really comment on midtown or uptown, since I rarely ride there. Usually when I do it's to take a city bike from lower manhattan up the west side bike path. I can tell you I used to often go to 8th and 30th street and getting from the bike path to that location, or from the bike path to Lincoln Center was pretty awful due to the lack of usable crosstown bike lanes.

But this claim that cross-town streets are ruined and have caused "horrific" financial tolls on retail businesses is weird, given that there are almost no bike lanes.

There's a bike lane on 21s St.

Foot traffic at retail is still down for various reasons including people now settled in with their delivery options. Back to needing bike lanes. (and UPS/Fedex unloading zones)